Caylee & JonBenet

[joeskidbeck]

One huge difference in these cases is the molestation. I have never seen any evidence that little Caylee was molested but JonBenet was. This was the reason for the terrible staging done that night and the biggest reason her accidental death had to be presented as a kidnap/murder. I go back and forth on who was doing the molesting, but for me, it was a family member, with three generations to choose from.

 

[WolfmarsGirl]

Since I suddenly find myself in this strange and vaguely-familiar place where we are discussing sweet little JB instead of Caylee, I am going to go hide under a big rock in the Caylee forum where I feel safe, lol.

Just a joke...But seriously, I will let y'all continue this discussion over here. Keep up the good fight everyone, even though, sadly, it is far too late to hope for justice for JB.

 

[DeeDee249]

I don't follow Caylee's case, but it all simplifies into 3 things. Grave wax and chloroform residue in the trunk of the mother's car (which the defense wishes to suppress), the fact that she did not report her daughter missing for many days. She also has been unable to show that the "babysitter" who she "gave her chid to" exists, not to mention she claims it was someone she didn't know well. As if.

Guilty.

AND her parents know what happened to their granddaughter.

 

[LinasK]

I don't follow Caylee's case, but it all simplifies into 3 things. Grave wax and chloroform residue in the trunk of the mother's car (which the defense wishes to suppress), the fact that she did not report her daughter missing for many days. She also has been unable to show that the "babysitter" who she "gave her chid to" exists, not to mention she claims it was someone she didn't know well. As if.

Guilty.

AND her parents know what happened to their granddaughter.

Actually, she didn't report her missing at all until the grandmother called 911 after 31 days, and initially it was to report her car stolen it wasn't until the 2nd or 3rd 911 call, when police hadn't arrived yet that it came out that Caylee was "missing".

 

[BBB167893]

Hi SuperDave, I don`t know where to begin. Here´s a little summary, all details are not included.

Caseys past behaviour is condemning. She`s a habitual liar who has stolen money from her parents and a friend, for which she is now convicted.

She googled "chloroform", "how to make chloroform", "household weapons" and "neck breaking" before Caylee died.

She lied to the police about the nanny named Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzales, about her job, gosh, about so many things I can`t remember everything. In the 31 days when Caylee was "missing", she told no-one about it. When people wanted to see Caylee she claimed she was with the nanny (who no one has ever seen) and Casey lived a normal, happy life, that´s what it seemed to others. It was Caseys grandmother who`s suspicions grew and she finally confronted her, demanded to be taken to Caylee and got Casey to admit that Caylee was missing, that the babysitter supposedly took her. The grandmother immediately called 9/11 and on that call Casey even lied that she had received a phone call on that same day from Caylee (she was already dead). Of course the call does not show on her phone records and she has "lost" all the numbers of (imagined) people who have something to do with her nanny-story.

And her car stunk of decomposition and there is forensic evidence supporting that there was a dead body in her trunk.

Casey has zero credibility and she most likely won`t take the stand.

(There would be a lot to say about the grandparents too, but this summary is about the accused murderer.)

I think it´s clear that Casey is guilty, not sure about the Ramseys.

Well, that's pretty much why I started this, Mysteeri. I want to know if I went wrong someplace.

To me, the only difference between the two is how they were handled. I often tell people who don't think the Ramseys are guilty to study other cases, this one in particular, to get an idea of just how different the justice system in Boulder is compared to virtually everywhere else. While I agree NOW that the case against Casey is a bit more clear-cut, I can't help but wonder what things would have been like if JonBenet had been killed ANYPLACE else.

Either way, I'm getting an education. Over at the JonBenet forum, I'm sort of the teacher. Here, I am but the humble student.

 

[BBB167893]

Hey SuperDave!!!! So nice to see you over here,

I pretty much stopped posting on the JB thread because it was hopeless and I could not stand to see so many newbies actually buying the Intruder-Did-It balogne. We all know who did it - may she rest in whatever peace she can find...

That being said, this case is nearly identical to the JB case, except, instead of having a husband who lacks a backbone, as in the Ramsey case, KC has a whole family who lacks one. The A's remind me so much of John in the JB case, it is sickening.

KC has the advantage over PR in the sense that she was able to get out of the house with the body and dispose of it.

Also, KC was the last person seen with Caylee. JB had a brother, father AND a murderer to hang out with on her final day.

PR wrote a ransom note (because she could not get the body out of the house in the dead of winter), and KC just created a babysitter-kidnapper. She didn't mess with the foreign faction thing, just a foreign-born sitter.

If PR would have been arrested immediately, as KC was, more or less, then we would have seen a conviction in JB's case too. But, the R's hired attorneys right away and kept LE at bay for so long it became comical.

There are so many things to say about both of these cases, but I will let my very-capable friends on this board elaborate most of it for you.

Nice to see you around this neighborhood!!

(In this post, when I refer to 'JB,' I mean 'JonBenet.')

Hey, WMG! You're talking my language! I agree with all of this!
Over on the JonBenet forum, I spend a lot of time stressing the phenomenon known as "cross-fingerpointing," where one suspect has another for reasonable doubt. But as you have pointed out, that's not true here. It's Casey all by her lonesome.

 

[BBB167893]

Hi Dave,I agree that there is just as much circumstantial evidence in the Ramsey case as there is in Casey's.The only difference truly is the way it is being handled.If only the Boulder police would have done half as awesome a job the orlando LE did JonBenet may have gotten justice .......so the main difference is there will be justice for Caylee,as far as there can be justice but sadly not for Jon Benet IMO

Yeah, that's what I keep telling people.

 

[BBB167893]

Hi SD! There will probably be a lot of folks who won't like what I am saying but it needs to be said. The HUGE difference in these 2 cases is that ICA (and her dysfunctional family) are soooo easy to hate, the Ramseys, not so much. If we believe the Ramseys are capable of this crime it rocks our world. They were the perfect upper class family and things like this are not supposed to happen to people like them. It opens a can of worms that good people would rather not see. ICA, with all her partying, sex with numerous people, and flat out disgusting lifestyle makes for the perfect villian (please don't misunderstand me, I feel exactly like the rest of you); however I have followed JBR's case from day one and somewhere along the way I took off my rose-colored glasses and saw the R's for what they truly are. It's not a pretty picture at all, much like the Anthonys, only with lots of money and power! How I wish Boulder had a police dept. and prosecutors office like the one about to make ICA pay for what she did, maybe JonBenet could rest in peace at last.

Beck, you're starting to think like me!

 

[BBB167893]

Were you the one who is writing a book on the Ramsey case?

That's me, all right!

 

[BBB167893]

BBM

Those people would make awful jurors.

Perhaps you should find a summary of jury instructions somewhere and post them for them. Or the LEGAL definition of "Reasonable Doubt".

I can see someone having trouble recommending the DP for someone without a "smoking gun", but not to convict beyond a "reasonable doubt". That's just uneducated.

No good telling THEM that! Believe me, I know. I've TRIED. I've often said that if the justice system was run the way they want it, we'd have to scrap the thing entirely, because no one would ever be arrested, much less convicted of anything!

 

[BBB167893]

Hi SD, I'm glad you are here, but hang in there with JB. John needs to be haunted by her murder the rest of his miserable life.

I'm just the man to do it!

 

[BBB167893]

Lets assume both JBR and Caylee died by accident.

Why cover up ?

Or why such a dramatic cover up ?

JBR could have fallen down the stairs and Caylee could have drowned?

Why tape and big crazy stories?

I'll tell you, chakti, just about every day I'm on the JBR forums, I run into that question! Most often, it's asked rhetorically. But it seems to be the rule rather than the exception.

 

[Jenny60123]

Hello, everybody!

Some of you may know me from the JonBenet forum. But I confess that I don't really know much about this case. So, I thought it might help if I could gain a little more knowledge.

But I have my own reasons. What inspired me was a blurb on TV the other night. In in, it was stated that the case against Casey is purely circumstantial. I knew that, but it illustrated the difference between the approach law enforcement in Boulder took vs. the approach they take just about every place else.

Correct me if I'm wrong about any of this:

--the police arrested Casey before they even found a body;

--there are no eyewitnesses, no confession, no DNA, nothing at all that would be considered a classic "smoking gun;"

--the prosecutor in this case cared more about a little girl's death than about hurting the suspect's feelings or their politcal careers or the town's reputation;

--Casey cannot afford high-price, politically connected lawyers;

--the evidence against Casey is mostly anecdotal;

--Casey had no known history of violence, mental illness, etc.

See, over on the forum where I'm so well-known, this is the perfect counterpoint to some, who claim that literally every single case must have a "smoking gun" in order to get a conviction, that there's no such thing as putting together circumstantial evidence into a totality, that probable cause is a very easy thing to establish, etc.

By their own logic, then, Casey has been railroaded six ways to Sunday. To me, the way this case was handled vs. the JonBenet case is night and day, but that's about the ONLY difference.

But, as I said, I don't know that much. I am your empty cup. Fill me, baby!

The only real similarity I see between the cases is the outpouring of love and concern for the victim by people all across our country who have never met the victim, or their family.

To me, the high profile ones seem to always be something about that victim. Sometimes, something that adds an extra layer of heartache. With Jonbenet, it was that she was killed on Christmas, a child's day like no other. With Caylee, it's that her mother partied like it was 1999 without a care in the world about her daughter for 31 days.

 

[BBB167893]

Hmm, to sum up I think the difference is that a) Casey did not report her daughter missing b) LE found out very early for a fact that the nanny story is a lie and arrested her. To my knowledge it is debatable in the Ramsey case whether the kidnapping/intruder story is a lie. (Plus the defense would have foreign DNA on JBR to show reasonable doubt)

Ugh, but I do not want to get into this anymore. Have a nice spring everyone, on May I will follow the trial very closely because it`s possible, it will certainly be exciting to root for the state and justice for Caylee!

Leaving those points aside, Mysteeri, that's not why I started this thread. It's not a question of whether or not both parties are guilty or innocent. I did this to illustrate the different circumstances and the different law enforcement approaches that were taken.

Solace and WMG are absolutely right: it's very likely that if the Boulder cops had acted like THESE cops, we wouldn't be debating the JB case. At least most of us wouldn't.

 

[BBB167893]

It seems a lot of people agree that Casey not having another suspect tips the odds against her.

 

[LinasK]

Mmmm, Dave, I hate to tell you this but you got moved back, did you notice???

 

[joeskidbeck]

It seems a lot of people agree that Casey not having another suspect tips the odds against her.

Dave, if I were a betting woman I would take the odds that before her trial is over ICA's defense team will be trying hard to throw someone else under the bus and I hope George Anthony is ready! He won't be the only one but he will probably the first.

 

[DeeDee249]

Why the tape and all the rest? Easy. A coroner can tell if a dead chid has really fallen down the stairs.
In cases where kids have been beaten to death- that is the FIRST thing the parent says. The child fell down the stairs.

JB's hole in her skull would NOT have happened from a fall down the stairs. THAT was what it was determined to be: blunt force trauma. Which us something hitting HER as opposed to her hitting something. Her bruises were small and in her vagina, with a tiny one on her labia and a small one on her posterior shoulder.
In a fatal fall down the stairs, the injuries would be very different. And a broken neck would certainly be something that would be expected, though not always present.
Bottom line- even a NEW coroner could tell she didn't fall down the stairs.
JB had no visible cause of death. None. No visible head wound. No visible blood.
So...what do you say to the medics when the come? There were vaginal injuries that certainly didn't happen falling down anywhere. And falling down doesn't erode the hymen. RUBBING (repeatedly) the hymen erodes the hymen.

 

[claudicici]

oh,I almost forgot,there is unknown DNA on the duct tape in the Caylee case yet that does not make people think Casey is not guilty.

 

[BBB167893]

Mmmm, Dave, I hate to tell you this but you got moved back, did you notice???

Yeah, I noticed! And for the life of me, I can't figure out why! We were sticking to the subject.