Christmas photos

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DNA Solves
Interesting thread and ideas. Thanks for starting it, Tadpole.

What always struck me about the photo of Patsy and JonBenet was how neat JonBenet's hair was.

Obviously, someone brushed and put her hair into a ponytail at the top. That's never been addressed or mentioned by the Ramseys that I have seen as an activity done that morning. Kids usually don't get up for Santa presents and do their hair first, so when did it get done?

That's another thing that bothers me in the autopsy photos. JonBenet's hair, as it was photographed at the crime scene in the home and at autopsy has never been revealed during all of Smit's propaganda spin. Why not? What we can see looks disheveled, but it's hard to tell if she even had the "two ponytails" we have heard of often. Did she have those at the Whites' party? We don't know because those photos have never been released, not by Team Ramsey. Why is THAT?

When Team Ramsey picks and chooses what propaganda the public will see, I always thing about what they don't ALLOW US to see and why.

Yeah, and her hair is different in both of those photographs...the one with Patsy, looks as if she had just gotten up...the one with her presents, looks as if she has changed clothes and has had her hair done. As picky as Patsy was about presentation, she probably fixed JB's hair and made her change her clothes before opening presents. Which is why them NOT taking pictures, makes no sense. Why make JB get all picture perfect, and then only snap a few photos? Here is the confusing part...the photo of Patsy and JB was the LAST one taken of her. Okay...so, we know that there were some taken that morning, and at the White's...so, how is this the very last photo, if it was taken in the morning? Maybe it was taken before they left for the White's, before JB got ready to go. To me, it is as if the one of JB and Patsy...and the one with JB and her presents...are out of order. If the one with JB and Patsy was the last one taken...her hair was all messy, and down...then it couldn't have been taken BEFORE the one of her and her presents...with her hair all fixed and in place. Those pictures confuse me. Maybe the poster (tadpole) that stated that it could have been taken at night...before bed...is correct...since it was the LAST photo taken of JB. It's the only thing that makes any sense. So, maybe there is more to Patsy crying in the photo, and her grasping JB's arm...than meets the eye. Does what I am saying make any sense...or am I rambling? LOL
 
No youre not rambling........you saying what what I believe:
Theres more to the story than "we ran out of batteries" and the R's timeline/recollection of events is SERIOUSLY flawed!!!
Why oh why werent the pics from The white's party ever released??? Id LOVE to see JBR's hair as well as her outfit FOR REAL(its been described yes & I know the whites arent lying but id like to see it!)and I think itd help to determine what really were the last pics of her ever taken(Im starting to like the idea of the pic of her & Patsy truly being the last pic ever taken..........perhaps it was snapped after coming home from the party before the pineapple snack?)
 
I have no doubt she was crying as HER "picture perfect"Christmas was "ruined" but why lie?Why make the obvious lie about the camcorder battery dying etc etc Why not release ALL the photos and the VERY possible camcorder footage to LE then ?

I also find it interesting that JR couldn't just let it go at "Since Beth's death, I haven't wanted to step out of the moment to film" or whatever. Instead, it hen became an issue of lack of batteries. So he was willing to step out of the moment, if the camera had batteries? Which is it? I mean, both reasons can co-exist, I guess, but those explanations were given at different times, right? Why not leave it at the most simple "No batteries" explanation and leave off the more emotional one? Seeing as JR was unemotional with those he didn't know well, by all reports.

Let's say it's a lie. Perhaps the MyTwinn situation was much more upsetting and apple-cart-tipping than we know. Maybe there's a emotional scene that might incriminate them, whether it was the intent at the time or not. Why no still pictures, though? Is JBR sporting bruises? Did something happen right after the MyTwinn unveilling? Did they throw her down the basement stairs a la An American Crime?

I have this feeling that JR was lying about the pictures or lack thereof, but I can't explain why. Apparently.
 
Jon Benet sitting crying on the steps at the party of the 23rd, espousing that she did not feel pretty. Was this the same day/night that the dictionary was dragged out and left open to the page with incest on it, in the Ramsey suite?

Was the perp spirited out of the house on the 23rd, I am remembering after all this time that that was THE day that the older son left Boulder, is my memory accurate?

Was a promise made to a tiny girl that there would be a secret visit from Santa AFTER Christmas, on the day/night of the 23rd?

My imagination knowing all that I have read in the media, and words from the R's mouths, can run with this to the bitter end, and the end of this tiny girls life on Christmas night.

My imagination, given the outcome and suspicious happenings and protective announcements in the years later, can send me off to a place where the surviving parents would not want their reputations 'in fact' ruined, and losing one additional child to this disaster.

Some parents could and would do anything in this nightmare cast upon them, to maintain power to evade and eliminate suspicions to land and be proven factual. Missing 'traditional family festivity photos', I do believe it became a 'private family' matter, the missing video and photos a part of it.

We most likely will never know, we were not there, many bits of information are missing.

Lets continue looking at the OTHER suspects. Heaven knows the world is full of suspects for all manner of horrible human acts. Drugs, alcohol, bad upbringings, abusive childhoods, guns, knives, misunderstandings, and the usual uncaring souls who wander the earth full of destruction for all.

The every day world is full of mysteries unknown.

.
 
One thing that been bothering me if the person had a key to the R's would this person be consider an intruder or a friend to the family
 
hey Tad, about the verse that was read at JB furneal sounds like for forgiveness but I wonder for who.You hear on the news where parents think the devil is in their children I know this sound crazy.
 
One thing that been bothering me if the person had a key to the R's would this person be consider an intruder or a friend to the family
IMO I believe the R's are AT LEAST guilty of tampering with evidence & obstruction of justice 'cause if they didn't do it they sure as heck have done a good job trying to cover up who ever did do it !! Ive always felt 'RDI' was an "umbrella"term for anyone in that family OR 'known to the family' who had contact with the R's before/during/after the murder(and who'd they go to great lengths,i.e writing a ransom OPUS for etc to assist in evading justice)."IDI" in my mind means we must throw common sense out the window & believe the R's had no knowledge(prior or otherwise)of the crime,did not assist in the crime or cover-up meaning it was a total stranger who pulled it off & got away scot free...........
 
I agree with you about there being no videos or photos of Christmas. They claimed that the battery had ran down in their cam-corder. But, they could have used the cord. I have had to do that many times. I just don't buy that story at all. And there isn't a person that I know, that doesn't take pictures of their children on Christmas. Why were there only two pictures? The one with Patsy grasping JB's arm, and the one with JB with her unopened presents. I believe that they would have taken alot more than that. Something is fishy about that whole thing.

JB had two dolls that have been talked about on the boards (I am sure that she way more than that, but those are the only significant ones). She got the MYTWINN doll for Christmas, but she also had an American Girl doll...that is the one that you are thinking of that had the tape on it. The reason for the tape is weird....the doll has a string around it's neck, and when you brush it's hair, the string get's tangled in the brush...so the manufactorer's suggest putting tape over the string, in the back, to keep that from happening. This is the doll that "disappeared", and someone ordered another one that came to John's office right after JB died.

Hi Ames.
There has been so much great research done on the MyTwinn Doll connection. It's a really interesting train of thought .... speculative, maybe .... but then why that connection to a second "reordered" doll?

"This is the doll that "disappeared"- Ames
What happened to the duplicate of JBR?
A doll like that, identicle, would assume a morid sense, when you had lost the one and only, the 'original', your child.

"But, they could have used the cord." - Ames

Ames, I had never even considered that! Even though I remember that video cameras did indeed have cords; everythings 'cordless' nowadays.
 
Interesting thread and ideas. Thanks for starting it, Tadpole.

Hi KK.
Well, I can't take credit ... I just recycled Ravyn's "Christmas Photos' Thread.

What always struck me about the photo of Patsy and JonBenet was how neat JonBenet's hair was.

Obviously, someone brushed and put her hair into a ponytail at the top. That's never been addressed or mentioned by the Ramseys that I have seen as an activity done that morning. Kids usually don't get up for Santa presents and do their hair first, so when did it get done?

That's another thing that bothers me in the autopsy photos. JonBenet's hair, as it was photographed at the crime scene in the home and at autopsy has never been revealed during all of Smit's propaganda spin. Why not? What we can see looks disheveled, but it's hard to tell if she even had the "two ponytails" we have heard of often. Did she have those at the Whites' party? We don't know because those photos have never been released, not by Team Ramsey. Why is THAT?

When Team Ramsey picks and chooses what propaganda the public will see, I always thing about what they don't ALLOW US to see and why.

"when did it get done?"- KK
"What we can see looks disheveled" - KK

I know. Its perplexing. Pffft.
 
As for the doll.............Is it that doll or the "replacement" that Patsy supposedly kept in a rocking chair in the ATL home living room after the Boulder move?????
The doll(s) shouldnt matter but clearly they do and its frustrating to try to find out WHY!!!!!:confused:
 
One thing that been bothering me if the person had a key to the R's would this person be consider an intruder or a friend to the family

Hi Ravyn.

Hmmm, That's another interesting point. Friends who are given the 'open door' policy, family with 'entitlement' to be in the home.

Those spare keys that neighbours keep are often lost or misplaced.
Keys are most often kept accesible, in plainview, handsreach, and even on key racks?
Depends .... where you keep your neighbours spare key ... seperated from one's own keys (housesitting) or if you have such an intimate
relationship that their keys are kept on your own key ring.
 
The MyTwinn dolls did not have the infamous neck cord. That was the American Girl doll. JBR had one of those, too. It was a duplicate American Girl doll that was delivered to Access Graphics offices after JBR's death.
The cord on the American Girl dolls was short. It went around the neck of the doll and was meant to secure the vinyl head to the cloth body. It was nowhere near as long as the cord of the garrote. The cord of the garrote AND the tape have been identified already as identical to cord and tape sold in 2 places in Boulder. The Army-Navy store and McGuckin's Hardware (from which there was a credit card receipt belonging to the Rs for items priced identically to the cord and tape and sold in the identical department). The cord of the garrote was white and flat. The cord on American Girl dolls is round and off-white.

The "strange moving lights" were seen by a neighbor Christmas NIGHT (late, after the Rs returned home from the White's). The photo flash would have been from Christmas MORNING. And the moving lights were noticed in the kitchen, not in the living room, where the Christmas tree was and where is could be presumed Christmas morning photos would have been taken. I believe the moving lights seen were one of the Rs moving about with the flashlight in the darkened house.
 
Hi DeeDee.

Thanks for clarifying facts.
DOI index:

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/doi-m.htm

My Twinn Doll · 3, 4, 32, 242
My Twinn Doll was advertised at the Denver airport · 242
My Twinn Doll was hidden on shelf above laundry in basement · 242
My Twinn Doll was shipped to the Ramseys in a white shipping carton · 242

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/doi-t.htm
The doll lay silently in the long white box · 242
The beautiful doll · 242



http://www.acandyrose.com/s-pam-paugh.htm

PMPT p73

The day before, one of Patsey Ramsey's sisiter had gone inside the house with police permission and taken out an oil painting, several American Girl Dolls ....
 
No youre not rambling........you saying what what I believe:
Theres more to the story than "we ran out of batteries" and the R's timeline/recollection of events is SERIOUSLY flawed!!!
Why oh why werent the pics from The white's party ever released??? Id LOVE to see JBR's hair as well as her outfit FOR REAL(its been described yes & I know the whites arent lying but id like to see it!)and I think itd help to determine what really were the last pics of her ever taken(Im starting to like the idea of the pic of her & Patsy truly being the last pic ever taken..........perhaps it was snapped after coming home from the party before the pineapple snack?)

That is what I am thinking. But according to John, he snapped it Christmas morning. This is the quote from John that is beside of that picture on acandyrose's site.

John Ramsey snapped a few still photographs Christmas morning

"I forgot to charge the batteries of the video camera last night. They're all run down. But here is our regular camera. I can take a few pictures. You get over there next to Mommy." (snip) "I thought about just how special this Christmas morning was as I snapped a few pictures of the children with their opened gifts lying around the room. I had no way of knowing these would be the last photographs I would take of my youngest and most defenseless daughter." [DOIpg4,5]


BY AMES: Something is fishy here. If the picture of Patsy and JB was the absolute last picture of her alive, then why is her hair all messy and down...and combed and fixed in the picture of her with her unopened presents??


------------------------------------
Another comment from John...
"Since the death of my oldest daughter, Beth, I haven't wanted to take away the moment at hand of stepping out of the scene to videotape or photograph it. I felt that life was too precious and went past too quickly to interrupt it by fussing with a camera. Now I wanted to live in the moment, rather than preserving it for later enjoyment." [DOIpg4]

From Ames: If this is true...why bother to fix JB's hair, and change her clothes? I don't believe this for ONE second. It makes no sense. They could have used the cord to that video camera, and taped ten min. John acted like the videotaping would go on for hours and hours. My husband and I take turns video taping, and we only tape for about 15 min. So, we get to "live in the moment"...AND ALSO "preserve the moment for later enjoyment". John acts like it has to be one or the other.
 
....the older son theory would make sense to me,especially in light of the missing pictures...i just don't think patsy could have covered for him to that extend...since it was not her son....but it's possible....whoever did this was familar with the house,with patsy's handwriting and style of writing(if it wasn't her),,,,whoever did this had severe mental issues....has there ever been any psychological evaluation done on either of the family members?
 
Hi Ames.
There has been so much great research done on the MyTwinn Doll connection. It's a really interesting train of thought .... speculative, maybe .... but then why that connection to a second "reordered" doll?

"This is the doll that "disappeared"- Ames
What happened to the duplicate of JBR?
A doll like that, identicle, would assume a morid sense, when you had lost the one and only, the 'original', your child.

"But, they could have used the cord." - Ames

Ames, I had never even considered that! Even though I remember that video cameras did indeed have cords; everythings 'cordless' nowadays.

Okay, the MYTWINN Doll left with Pam, when she went in to gather things for JB's funeral (and to remove evidence...IMO). The only thing about the MYTWINN doll, is that Patsy ordered it for JB for Christmas, and JB didn't like it, and said "it doesn't look like me", and it pissed Patsy off.

JB had an American Girl Doll too, (I believe that she had several of them), but one in particular disappeared after the murder. The American Girl Doll has a string around the neck, I assume to hold the head onto the body. When the doll's hair is brushed, the string gets caught in the brush, so the manufactorer's suggest to tape the string down. OKAY...about that tape...the tape that covered JB's mouth had tan fibers stuck to it, on the sticky side. And it wasn't really that sticky at all...like it had been stuck to something else, before being stuck to her mouth. The American Girl Doll's body is tan...so could this tape that was over JB's mouth, have been the same tape used to hold down the string on the American Girl Doll?? That seems to be the million dollar question. One of JB's American Girl Dolls disappeared....but then the same kind was re-ordered and sent to John's office at work. IMO..Pam was told to remove the original one. (Probably because you could see the imprint of where the tape was holding down the string...but, the tape itself wasn't there....and the imprint or mark where the tape had been, matched the tape that had been over JB's mouth perfectly). IMO
 
...thank you so much for clearing up the doll issues.
has john ever been questioned about that?...what could he possibly give as an explanation?
 
As for the doll.............Is it that doll or the "replacement" that Patsy supposedly kept in a rocking chair in the ATL home living room after the Boulder move?????
The doll(s) shouldnt matter but clearly they do and its frustrating to try to find out WHY!!!!!:confused:

Okay, you are confusing the dolls. Patsy kept the MYTWINN doll in a rocking chair (which sounds a little morbid to me). There was never a re-order of the MYTWINN doll...it was the American Girl Doll...The MYTWNN doll and the American Girl Doll are two separate dolls.
 
...thank you so much for clearing up the doll issues.
has john ever been questioned about that?...what could he possibly give as an explanation?

There is a link about this over at FFJ, I will see if I can dig it up for you.

Okay, this was posted by Tricia (the owner of Websleuths and FFJ)...over at FFJ.

Who Ordered an American Girl Doll, in the Name of JonBenet, on Januay 1st 1997 and had it Delivered to Access Graphics?


You all know the wonderful Jahazafat. Jahazafat, for years, has been screaming into the wind about the dolls, the fibers and the special order in JBR’s name in 1997. In fact Jahazafat has a website with some of the information. http://www.geocities.com/pinker44/
The problem I had with Jahazafat was not her story but how she came about the information. She didn’t have a reason to lie yet there was no source. I didn’t know what to do with her story.

Until now.

First, I want to thank Peggy (Little) for this information. It was posted first on Crime and Justice. I am grateful Peggy brought it to my attention.
http://pub165.ezboard.com/fcrimeandjustice13552frm78
Jahazafat worked for Pleasant Company. She saw the order in JonBenet’s name and where the doll was delivered to. Access Graphics. Jahazafat told me later that the order was paid for with a money order or cashiers check. No credit card trail.
Below is the email I received from Jahazafat concerning the dolls and the tape. Bold is mine.
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` `
I worked for Pleasant Company, owned by Mattel, which sells American Girl Dolls, from October 1998 to January 2004. I worked at a call center in Wilmot, Wisconsin. I worked as a variable order processor, which means I worked seasonally. The job was taking credit card phone orders for products and putting them into a computer system. It also involved fielding customer service issues and processing requests to mail the catalogue.
I read this in Perfect Murder, Perfect Town the last week of September 1999. "The day before, one of Patsy Ramsey's sisters had gone into the house with police permission and taken out an oil painting, several American Girl dolls, a portfolio of JonBenet's pageant photographs…”. I first thought it a testament to the wonderful products that the dolls were so special to be removed. But when I got to the end of the book there was a list that mentioned the duct tape had to be from ‘outside the house’. I had specific training that if a customer called in and complained about the cord attaching the head to tell them to duct tape it down. It could also be tucked in the clothing or sewn, but never cut, and for safety reasons, never pinned. The duct tape was presented as proof of an intruder but the dolls have a verifiable connection to duct tape and the Ramseys were allowed to remove them from the crime scene.
I did simple experiments with duct tape on a doll. If you tape the string down when you pull the tape off there remains a visible residue and it pulls out the white polyester stuffing, which sticks to the tape and makes it not sticky. Somewhere I read a reference to white fibers on the tape but have never been able to relocate those one or two lines. It’s likely these white fibers were the cause of the Santa Bear fiasco. The duct tape information upset me tremendously. I spoke to my father, an attorney, and he called Hunter’s office. He spoke with Leslie Aaholm. This was literally days before the GJ disbanded. I followed up the phone call with letters to Kane and Owens. From reading about Hunter’s office, he couldn’t be trusted 100% so as supportive back up, I called and wrote Craig Lewis. The GJ made no decision but Owens went on TV a few days later talking about ‘new evidence’ and Henry Lee had come to town. It was encouraging but nothing more happened.
I bought a PC out of frustration early in 2000 to follow the case online. I read more about the evidence and in particular ‘mysterious’ fibers found on the body and clothing. Sometimes they were listed as blue and sometimes they were dark. I looked at a Molly doll in a display case and gathered at her feet were thousands of navy blue wool fibers that had shed from her skirt. As with the duct tape, there was an eerie connection.
In September 1999 a computer search with the Ramsey’s Boulder address revealed a catalogue sent to JonBenet in 1996. A separate search had shown an order for a Samantha doll sent to Patsy in Charlevoix in July 1996. Computer searches are done with zip code and last name. In the spring of 2000 I searched and found an order listed as ordered by and shipped to JonBenet herself on Pearl Street, January 1, 1997. I about fell off my seat. I never saw the paper order, only computer documentation. Mail orders are processed in Middleton, WI for speed in delivery as that is were they are received. It also was years before and paper copies are shredded within two weeks of processing. A search with Nedra’s name and zip showed an order from early September 1996. Nedra’s computer file has the misspelling of Nedba. I could go on with pages of information about the orders and the computer systems but it's very technical.
As with the duct tape information, I wrote letters to Kane, Owens, and Lewis with info about the dark fibers and the doll sent to Access Graphics. I also emailed the Boulder Police department. and Chuck Green. There was never anything other than computer generated receipt confirmations; I think those came from Owens. This was spring 2000. I waited years before I posted much online. I held out hope that it would be investigated. A year or two later Smit came out with information about tan cotton fibers, which only cemented the doll connection, as the torso is tan cotton. This revelation had me again writing and emailing to the same list and then some. I have shared; written, called, or emailed this story to hundreds of people. Anytime the Ramseys appear on TV, I rebut with my story. Anytime I read of another Ramsey lawsuit I contact the defendants. I have not been silent but oddly, I have never been asked a single question either.
About using duct tapes on the dolls, employees don’t all receive the exact same training. Training sessions are small-unscripted affairs. It may have just been an off the cuff remark. I asked a few fellow workers and none related any duct tape training. It is not even a huge issue and in the course of my employment I only received a handful of calls about that cord. My father though did call and after several tries got the recommendation to use duct tape. I know the person I heard it from was trained by Middleton, not Wilmot which may account for the discrepancy.
I never felt comfortable speaking up when I was employed, as it is a sensitive issue. The products are for young girls and association with a crime is less than ideal. I have friends who support families based on the success of the company. But if I look at the larger picture the information needs to be available so other law enforcement agencies can learn from what went so drastically wrong. If it is used to prevent a single crime against a child it’s worth it.
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