Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #2

[Bartholemeus]

Following this line of thought, I'm trying to place myself in Ciara's shoes, who worked for a top law firm, and was obviously intelligent. She apparently knew of the disappearances of Jane and Sarah. Still, if a seemingly nice person drove up and offered her a lift, would she decline because of her knowledge of previous disappearances? Hindsight's good and all, but I think if the CSK seemed genuine and offered her a lift, she would have thought, 'yes there may be a killer, but not this guy'. Humans have a tendency to think things will not happen to them. That is why I don't totally buy the argument that there is no way Ciara would have voluntarily got into a car of someone she didn't know. She may have thought, if at all, something like this will not happen to a person like me, and hopped in.

She'd just come back (within a week or two) from travelling around Europe which I believe involved a fair bit of hitch hiking and general "I young and invincible" type things you do when you're young and out in the world. She wouldn't have had the same fear as other girls. She would have been told about it but she didn't live through the other two abductions. A few drinks later and her guard is down.

 

[MyLeftFoot]

I don't believe the blitz attack theory is feasible.

Though I think the SR and PW duo is probably the best lead, I think it is possible the killer was just someone acting alone. I think it is possible a single male drove around and offered lifts every so often on weekends and just got lucky, from his point of view, on the three occasions the young women went missing. I know the police called for anyone to come forward if they had ever been offered lifts from someone in Claremont, but I just don't think that is a question that would be answered, with the passage of time, with accuracy. It would be such an innocuous thing if a nice person just drove up and offered a lift and you declined. You wouldn't remember that 5 second interaction, especially if drunk, or if you did, if the person seemed nice, you would probably think, 'well, that person would not be the killer, so best report nothing'. Also, this theory probably explains the gaps in time between the abductions of the women, them being based on, as it were, luck.

Following this line of thought, I'm trying to place myself in Ciara's shoes, who worked for a top law firm, and was obviously intelligent. She apparently knew of the disappearances of Jane and Sarah. Still, if a seemingly nice person drove up and offered her a lift, would she decline because of her knowledge of previous disappearances? Hindsight's good and all, but I think if the CSK seemed genuine and offered her a lift, she would have thought, 'yes there may be a killer, but not this guy'. Humans have a tendency to think things will not happen to them. That is why I don't totally buy the argument that there is no way Ciara would have voluntarily got into a car of someone she didn't know. She may have thought, if at all, something like this will not happen to a person like me, and hopped in.

There's nothing to suggest that Ciara did get into the car willingly. She may have refused the offer of a lift...the driver may have driven on, parked up further along and attacked her as she walked past.

 

[north_west]

She wouldn't have had the same fear as other girls. She would have been told about it but she didn't live through the other two abductions. A few drinks later and her guard is down.

IMO it is extremely unlikely that Ciara Glennon would have been hitchhiking, in Europe or in Perth, or frankly, anywhere, ever. If you grew up in Perth in the 80s you did not feel invincible at all back then. Because if you were in high school in Perth in the 80s the Birnies taught everyone the dangers of hitchhiking (even when it appeared to be safe like with a couple).

 

[Sutton]

...This page says JR has a missing belly button ring: http://aussiecriminals.com.au/the-lounge/comment-page-1/

Not sure if that is accurate though. In the CIA doco they are only appealing for sunflower key ring and brooch.

RSBM. Not sure how you found that comment. Thanks!

I am going to recheck accessing the West Australian.

 

[Sutton]

There's nothing to suggest that Ciara did get into the car willingly. She may have refused the offer of a lift...the driver may have driven on, parked up further along and attacked her as she walked past.

So do you subscribe to the blitz theory?

 

[MyLeftFoot]

So do you subscribe to the blitz theory?

I think, re the initial contact with the girls (however brief), he presented as someone benign, even quite charming. After that...it was a disabling blitz attack. The initial shock would have given him a great advantage.

 

[billywhizz]

And this is what you're dealing with:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-11/police-find-missing-simon-rochford-murder-weapon/6769658

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-12/murder-weapon-discovery-a-cover-up-says-wa-shadow-ag/6770470

This case really needs to have an inquest. It would probably be solved.

 

[billywhizz]

Why would CSK take only one "trophy" from each victim if he's clever?

Or could it be a duo/group trying to be clever and only taking one thing, trying to make people think it's a single CSK?

 

[MyLeftFoot]

And this is what you're dealing with:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-11/police-find-missing-simon-rochford-murder-weapon/6769658

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-12/murder-weapon-discovery-a-cover-up-says-wa-shadow-ag/6770470

This case really needs to have an inquest. It would probably be solved.

I read that also Billy, and frankly you just have to shake your head in disgust. If it was a 'one of'..... you could forgive them but this happens time and time again!
I don't favour a coronial inquest on the grounds that I think it would alert the offender before sufficient evidence was secured. By sufficient evidence, I mean evidence that would point conclusively at the offender and secure a conviction.
If that happens to be through DNA, then I think a little more patience on our part is necessary. They say "by the end of the year"... lets hope they meant THIS year.

 

[MyLeftFoot]

I think the most debilitating and counter productive behaviour to solving crimes lies within the politics of policing itself.

Left to their resources, many an honest copper would be able to do his job without political hindrance. But the orders come down and without rhyme or reason, new parameters are set.

Then we have the resistance to accept information from people who have embarrassed them or called their integrity into question. These people are treated like the antichrist despite being held in high regard prior to blowing the whistle. (ie John Quigley and Robin Napper)

Every few years, Robin Napper brings in the world's top forensic scientists (to W.A) for a symposium on advances in forensic science. What a fantastic learning opportunity that would be for police...BUT...they refuse to attend because Robin Napper was instrumental in revealing Andrew Mallard's false conviction and is therefore an enemy. He was also advising the defence in the Lloyd Rayney trial.

If you are seen as a potential threat to the reputation of the police facade, your name is mud.

If police cannot put their animosity and ego's aside, is it any wonder that grave mistakes are made and unique opportunities are lost, over and over again?

 

[Bartholemeus]

IMO it is extremely unlikely that Ciara Glennon would have been hitchhiking, in Europe or in Perth, or frankly, anywhere, ever. If you grew up in Perth in the 80s you did not feel invincible at all back then. Because if you were in high school in Perth in the 80s the Birnies taught everyone the dangers of hitchhiking (even when it appeared to be safe like with a couple).

Not true.

CG WAS hitch hiking according to the guys at the bus stop who yelled out to her she was mad to be hitch hiking, and reportedly did do some hitch hiking around Europe. I grew up locally in the 80s and 90s and it did happen.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Why would CSK take only one "trophy" from each victim if he's clever?

The same reason some clever people get depression or have a series of bad relationships or sometimes make dumb decisions. The emotions over rule the logic and in the case of serial killers apparently keeping souvenirs is so important the risk isn't even considered. They probably know it's a risk but it's a deal breaker so they have to keep something.

Or could it be a duo/group trying to be clever and only taking one thing, trying to make people think it's a single CSK?

Could be Hall + Oats.

 

[Bartholemeus]

I think the most debilitating and counter productive behaviour to solving crimes lies within the politics of policing itself.

Unfortunately this is true in almost all human group behaviour. Have a look at almost any large corporation and you will see the same behaviour. Some people don't do the right thing and have ulterior motives. Others just go with the flow so they don't rock the boat and put people off side (self preservation) and the ones who want to do the right thing get maligned. Think of all those cop movies and shows where the gun detective (often played by Bruce Willits types) is the maligned cop who puts justice first but get's screwed over. Welcome to life unfortunately.

I've seen this happen in many large companies I've worked for down to the local soccer club. The people who behave this way - they use confirmation bias to justify their behaviour. They convince themselves they are doing the right thing. And often the neutrals who don't have visibility will side with them.

To think there's some people who sleep at night who bahave like this when lives and victim family well being are at stake makes my blood boil.

I can't see any reason not to have an inquest. If WAPOL are foxing with "we're about to crack it" then give them a reasonable deadline. If not, inquest.

 

[Bartholemeus]

If you are seen as a potential threat to the reputation of the police facade, your name is mud.

If police cannot put their animosity and ego's aside, is it any wonder that grave mistakes are made and unique opportunities are lost, over and over again?

The culture in Police forces the world over is terrible and Australia, as a first world country should be trying to change it locally.

In Perth it has been high profile case after case. It's just not good enough.

 

[MyLeftFoot]

Unfortunately this is true in almost all human group behaviour. Have a look at almost any large corporation and you will see the same behaviour. Some people don't do the right thing and have ulterior motives. Others just go with the flow so they don't rock the boat and put people off side (self preservation) and the ones who want to do the right thing get maligned. Think of all those cop movies and shows where the gun detective (often played by Bruce Willits types) is the maligned cop who puts justice first but get's screwed over. Welcome to life unfortunately.

I've seen this happen in many large companies I've worked for down to the local soccer club. The people who behave this way - they use confirmation bias to justify their behaviour. They convince themselves they are doing the right thing. And often the neutrals who don't have visibility will side with them.

To think there's some people who sleep at night who bahave like this when lives and victim family well being are at stake makes my blood boil.

I can't see any reason not to have an inquest. If WAPOL are foxing with "we're about to crack it" then give them a reasonable deadline. If not, inquest.

I agree with everything you say here. The fact that it is in regard to our law enforcement makes it exceptionally bad management.

I even agree with you on the inquest but I think we should give them one last chance to nail the DNA issues. They've indicated "by the end of the year" .... if there's still no movement...inquest away I say!

 

[MyLeftFoot]

The Hayley Dodd fiasco

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/r...hayley-dodd-probe-restarted-by-lost-evidence/

Wark had sold the Badgingarra home four months after Hayley went missing. At the time of her disappearance, detectives questioned Wark but he was quickly ruled out as a suspect.[/B]
Wark, who was born and bred in WA, then got on his motorcycle and drove about 5300km to north Queensland and started a new life.

Back in WA, the Dodd family struggled on with the unanswered questions of their continuing nightmare.
As the trail went cold and then colder still, they tried anything and everything, and Hayley's mother Margaret pushed and pushed for police to chase new leads.
In 2000, the State government offered a $50,000 reward for information and in 2002 this was upped to $250,000.
In 2004, Mrs Dodd returned to the site with an Aboriginal tracker and a private investigator, and in 2011 the family hired a dog trained to find buried bodies and again went back to the area.

Detectives from the cold case squad then took over.

In 2013, the case took a new turn when a tiny piece of evidence that had been lost years earlier was uncovered again at a police storage centre.
Police believed the item belonged to Hayley.
It had originally been found in a car owned by Wark's housemate John McConnell, that he also used occasionally, but it had not been considered significant at the time.[/B]
After its rediscovery, police embarked on a fresh look at the case.

http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/m...s-police-sat-on-evidence-20141024-11aufe.html

Margaret Dodd (Hayley's Mother)
"I'm not happy they've had this evidence for 14 years and didn't look at when they first took it back in 1999, because it could've have been solved 14 years ago.
"This guy was brought to their attention a couple of times and they have re-examined what they had taken from the property and found something that more than likely belonged to Hayley."[/B]

 

[Sutton]

You can search this site for early newspaper articles about the case:

http://newsstore.fairfax.com.au/apps/newsSearch.ac?sy=age

Many are repeats, but there might be some forgotten details. Twenty-three results came back on a search for Sarah Spiers.

 

[JMC44]

So the police force promise new things by the end of the year. Could it be possible that they are still establishing a DNA profile of the killer, meaning the DNA samples they have won't have even become useful yet? What do people think?

 

[Bartholemeus]

The Hayley Dodd fiasco

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/r...hayley-dodd-probe-restarted-by-lost-evidence/

Wark had sold the Badgingarra home four months after Hayley went missing. At the time of her disappearance, detectives questioned Wark but he was quickly ruled out as a suspect.[/B]
Wark, who was born and bred in WA, then got on his motorcycle and drove about 5300km to north Queensland and started a new life.

Back in WA, the Dodd family struggled on with the unanswered questions of their continuing nightmare.
As the trail went cold and then colder still, they tried anything and everything, and Hayley's mother Margaret pushed and pushed for police to chase new leads.
In 2000, the State government offered a $50,000 reward for information and in 2002 this was upped to $250,000.
In 2004, Mrs Dodd returned to the site with an Aboriginal tracker and a private investigator, and in 2011 the family hired a dog trained to find buried bodies and again went back to the area.

Detectives from the cold case squad then took over.

In 2013, the case took a new turn when a tiny piece of evidence that had been lost years earlier was uncovered again at a police storage centre.
Police believed the item belonged to Hayley.
It had originally been found in a car owned by Wark's housemate John McConnell, that he also used occasionally, but it had not been considered significant at the time.[/B]
After its rediscovery, police embarked on a fresh look at the case.

http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/m...s-police-sat-on-evidence-20141024-11aufe.html

Margaret Dodd (Hayley's Mother)
"I'm not happy they've had this evidence for 14 years and didn't look at when they first took it back in 1999, because it could've have been solved 14 years ago.
"This guy was brought to their attention a couple of times and they have re-examined what they had taken from the property and found something that more than likely belonged to Hayley."[/B]

Have a look at the Julie Cutler case. Police did next to nothing for her and her family. The case is so bizarre you'd think it would make it easier to make inroads but they seemed to pass it off as "girl got murdered by partner, not our problem".

 

[Bartholemeus]

So the police force promise new things by the end of the year. Could it be possible that they are still establishing a DNA profile of the killer, meaning the DNA samples they have won't have even become useful yet? What do people think?

I think 2 things are most likely;

1. Police are trying to scare the CSK that they are closing the net and watching to see how he reacts
2. Police are building a case not to go to a coronial inquest by implying they are close to a result

I'd like to think they have evidence that they are waiting to see if they can get a DNA read on but not confident. I think if they had a DNA profile this case would be solved very quickly.