Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #2

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RSBM. The CIA docu focuses on what Sarah was wearing.

Steve Liebman, Host (12:08): Pictures of Sarah are circulated, along with descriptions of her beige Portman shorts and a light colored T-shirt and, particularly, her distinctive shoes.
Jim Stanbury, Det. Srgt. (12:20): They were beige suede shoes and had quite a distinctive chunky heel and a pattern cut out of the top of the shoe.

The docu shows a picture of Sarah's outfit and a close-up of her shoe. I can maybe see why they wouldn't focus on Jane or Ciara's clothing--it was (likely) found with their bodies. But, why focus on Sarah's clothes? Sarah's body isn't lying unidentified in a morgue, just waiting for a someone to make an id based on a description of her foot ware.

Were those the shoes found with Jane off Woolcoot Rd.?

The killer left Sarah's clothes and shoes with Jane's body to send a message to the police (really to the world, in general). He was opening a conversation, baiting them, making s statement about himself. The police sent a message back, via the CIA docu, acknowledging him, and hoping to draw him back into conversation. IMO. Just a possibility.

View attachment 83169

Sutton I firmly believe the shoes and clothing found at the Jane Rimmer disposal site were from the Karrakatta rape victim. She fled naked. Back when all this occurred they had a 'man' named Dick Lane in charge of homicide and his side kick Caporn. What a pair of bumbling idiots these guys ended up being with real history of stitch ups, coverups and loads of allegations of corruption. If the shoes were Sarah's I believe the press would have released that information. Neither the police nor the press have ever mentioned the shoes and clothing found at the disposal site. One teenyweeny press mention when Jane was located; that's all. What does that tell you? It tells me that police never made the connection at the time or did they and want to keep it under their proverbial hat as a surprise element to bolster their case against MM. Because it has just hit me like a lightning bolt. If these clothing items are from the Karrakatta girl, then there is a link with Jane too not just Ciara. No other victim prior to Jane as far as I am able to ascertain, was stripped of all clothing including shoes. A question then needs to be answered; what items of clothing were found? What size was the clothing? How old was the clothing items? Were there any labels affixed? Were the shoes of appropriate size to match clothing size? Any forensic evidence obtained; possibly not due to waterlogging of entire area? Did police ever check with the Karrakatta girl?
 
Mandurah

60km south of Perth. Used to be a seaside holiday town but now is the southern fringes of Perth. They probably owned a holiday home there.

The Spiers family owned a lovely holiday cottage on one of the manmade inlets in Mandurah; their family getaway spot.
 
Papertrail, I have the same questions re: Wark. All I know is that he sold his property at Badingarra four months after Hayley Dodd disappeared and moved to Queensland. I am very curious as to if he did live and have family where Fonty's source said he did prior to and during the Karrakatta and CSK crimes. He has certainly piqued my interest though.
 
From memory (because the copy is stored elsewhere) the woman (who blogged the details) gave the distinct impression the conversation if you can call it that, occurred on the footpath outside Club Bayview. I've got a strong gut feeling this guy went into the Club and perhaps the Continental Hotel and met these girls previously but then again would he do that because then his image would be printed onto their memory having spoken to him already. If he didn't first make contact inside the Club, then he has stalked them hasn't he. But then this raises the question about the girl being dragged from her vehicle at the Claremont Subway: was he waiting their on the off chance or did he know or or did he meet her inside the Club. Police should have covered that during their questioning of the girls. Given the sexual assault and rape victims also attended Club Bayview this seems to be the hotspot. I'll be posting more newspaper clips later today; one which contains the information from a Club staffer who stated to press that Jane had been seen inside the Club and this was very early on in the piece as well.

With the detail and dates I detailed yesterday re the sexual assaults, rapes, abductions, murders all the girls had been to the Club except Jane (?) and Ciara. The Continental was only mentioned in the press for Sarah, Jane and Ciara. Sarah we know was at the Club, Jane and her girlfriends apparently according to her female friend Lynda (CIA doc) walked to the Club but there was a queue so they decided not to wait, instead to go home with Jane changing her mind at the last minute. I still believe this (Jane's decision) was due to the passenger licensing requirements of 4 passengers only and her unselfish caring attitude towards her friends; and perhaps on the off chance she might meet that someone special. Her bodyl anguage tends to tell me she did not know MM as she did not alter her stance, move forward or unfold her arms; she presented him with a beaming open-mouthed welcoming smile. He would be good looking for her to respond the way she did. Ciara did not actually attend the Club (that we know of) but did she walk past the Club and then cut up Church Lane to the Stirling Highway? Witness accounts have her between Church Lane and Stirling Street/Queenslea Parade (same street but renamed to the south of Highway) and waling on eastbound (south) side of Stirling Highway towards Mosman Park (to her parent's home).


The woman had stated in the (now) removed blog that she had been interviewed 4 times by Macro. She had recognized Sarah but was this recognition prompted by media coverage or did she recognize her as a patron of the Club? I am reliably informed that police were made aware of the blog which raises the possibility or even probability they had taken steps to have the particular blog removed. There could be various reasons for doing so in particular she had what appeared to be her real name and coloured photo as her avatar and included her location. A search of the name and location tended to verify this blogger had not used a false name or location. There may have been concerns for her safety and rightly so. Now all I have to do is find the copy passed to me minus name and photo and location detail, supplied from a source which I cannot reveal.

I have lots if thought in response to your reply. Unfortunately, they aren't organized :)

It would be odd to offer someone a ride who was just walking by on the sidewalk. But the killer was odd, so he may not have understood this was not socially acceptable (meaning he was a psychopath who hadn't yet learned this would scare girls off). This doesn't put me ant closer to answering if he was in the club or not.

It is hard to determine how he found his victims:
1. Trolled around in his PV or cab or other vehicle. Waiting to see a defenseless girl on her own.
2. Went into clubs or bars and selected his victim. Followed them and attacked if he had the opportunity.
3. Parked or hid in a secluded spot, one that was on a path girls would likely travel at the end of the night. Then just wait for a good opportunity.
4. Knew the victims and stalked the beforehand.
5. Hung out at closing time, outside the bars and watched for victims. Once he found a target, he tried to head them off by running to his vehicle and meeting them down the road.

Regarding Jane staying in Claremont night, I don't know if we can speculate bc we may have misinformation. After rewatching the CIA, I don't think Lynda is being completely honest. I don't think she has any nefarious intent, but was some portion of her interview scripted? Actually, many of the statements in the docu seem...off.
 
Sutton I firmly believe the shoes and clothing found at the Jane Rimmer disposal site were from the Karrakatta rape victim. She fled naked. Back when all this occurred they had a 'man' named Dick Lane in charge of homicide and his side kick Caporn. What a pair of bumbling idiots these guys ended up being with real history of stitch ups, coverups and loads of allegations of corruption. If the shoes were Sarah's I believe the press would have released that information. Neither the police nor the press have ever mentioned the shoes and clothing found at the disposal site. One teenyweeny press mention when Jane was located; that's all. What does that tell you? It tells me that police never made the connection at the time or did they and want to keep it under their proverbial hat as a surprise element to bolster their case against MM. Because it has just hit me like a lightning bolt. If these clothing items are from the Karrakatta girl, then there is a link with Jane too not just Ciara. No other victim prior to Jane as far as I am able to ascertain, was stripped of all clothing including shoes. A question then needs to be answered; what items of clothing were found? What size was the clothing? How old was the clothing items? Were there any labels affixed? Were the shoes of appropriate size to match clothing size? Any forensic evidence obtained; possibly not due to waterlogging of entire area? Did police ever check with the Karrakatta girl?

Possible. Early in the investigation, Dick Ault, a well respected profiler, advised the police that the Karrakatta attack was the same perpetrator. The police know the Karrakatta victim was naked. And extra clothing is found near Jane.

Could they have been so blind? If so, wow. It's amazing any progress has been at all.

http://m.theaustralian.com.au/news/...ase-breakthrough/story-e6frg6nf-1227572149628
 
my apologies I need to correct some information that was incorrect. In the CIA doc it shows Jane in attendance with 3 girls and the 3 girls get into a taxi; one in the front seat, 2 in the back seat. So my discussion regarding the taxi licensing numbers might not be a valid point to consider. Although the doc may not be 100% accurate on numbers.
 
Possible. Early in the investigation, Dick Ault, a well respected profiler, advised the police that the Karrakatta attack was the same perpetrator. The police know the Karrakatta victim was naked. And extra clothing is found near Jane.

Could they have been so blind? If so, wow. It's amazing any progress has been at all.

http://m.theaustralian.com.au/news/...ase-breakthrough/story-e6frg6nf-1227572149628
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the highest ranking officers directly with hands-on with the investigation as mentioned previously were Lane and sidekick Caporn. They would not have enjoyed the presence or opinions of outsiders. Would have bruised their egos somewhat. Yes extra clothing found near Jane and never mentioned again by anyone and as far as I am able to ascertain never raised in any comment blog or thread or book for that matter. I find the finding of this extra clothing very important because it is a message. It's not like the disposal site, at the time in 1996, was in the middle of a housing complex which you might find an occasional piece of litter or discarded material lying around...this was very thick Australian native bush where Jane was found and a unmade road as well.
 
re the CIA doc. Leibman says Ciara only spent 20 minutes at the Continental Hotel. BUT newspaper reports in 1997 stated police were appealing to anyone that may be able to assist with the "missing 25 minutes" whilst Ciara was at the Hotel. This was apparently a period of time that her colleagues and friends could not account for her before she departed on her journey just before midnight. So why is this discrepancy so blatantly obvious and not mentioned in the CIA doc?
 
\
the highest ranking officers directly with hands-on with the investigation as mentioned previously were Lane and sidekick Caporn. They would not have enjoyed the presence or opinions of outsiders. Would have bruised their egos somewhat. Yes extra clothing found near Jane and never mentioned again by anyone and as far as I am able to ascertain never raised in any comment blog or thread or book for that matter. I find the finding of this extra clothing very important because it is a message. It's not like the disposal site, at the time in 1996, was in the middle of a housing complex which you might find an occasional piece of litter or discarded material lying around...this was very thick Australian native bush where Jane was found and a unmade road as well.
There's 2 potential scenarios here;

1. The initial report was incorrect. Every time police were asked about it since was hosed down and this explains why it was no longer reported.

2. The initial report was correct. But police wanted to keep this under wraps so every time they were asked about it they hosed it down as being misinformation. Why would they do that? Don't know - it's not as if they need to hide this piece of intelligence from the killer. And if the killer left the Karrakatta victim's clothes there do we really think police would not have made the link? Do we really think if they didn't make the link they wouldn't have appealed to the public to identify the clothing?

At the start of every investigation misinformation is rife whether it be other murders or Malaysian Airline crashes. It happens pretty much every time there is a big case where the stakes are high and rewards for breaking new information are handsome.

One of those options is clearly a lot more likely than the other.
 
...The person that everyone here refers to as Judoman in the mistaken belief that police were referring to Jane's friend who appeared at the beginning of the documentary when they (police) referred to the marshall arts expert etc. is totally incorrect...

RSBM. This is quite possible, and would explain some of running around in circles we've all done.

If the martial arts suspect is unknown to us, I think his connection to Jane is through the aforementioned friend. Because this friend is Judoman, in every sense of the word. Did Jane know two martial arts experts? Possibly. But they had to have known each other.

So...who is from am English family and is (was) friends with Judoman?
 
...So...who is from am English family and is (was) friends with Judoman?

RSBM. Also he may have had shoulder length blond hair.

I am going to search through some online pics...
 
RSBM. This is quite possible, and would explain some of running around in circles we've all done.

If the martial arts suspect is unknown to us, I think his connection to Jane is through the aforementioned friend. Because this friend is Judoman, in every sense of the word. Did Jane know two martial arts experts? Possibly. But they had to have known each other.

So...who is from am English family and is (was) friends with Judoman?

It is possible that Jane knew both martial arts experts but I don't think we should narrow the focus just on judo as there are a multitude of martial arts disciplines. Jane had a wide circle of friends and was closely connected to a man (as a buddy only I've been told) that was connected to hockey circles as well. He did not turn up at her funeral and is now deceased. To me it sounds as though Lynda and Jane were connected for a number of years and this makes me consider if Lynda was a sporty type and into a similar discipline.

There is nothing that I have read or viewed in the CIA doc that indicates to me that both men knew each other. All I am certain of at this point in time is that the POI referred to in the CIA doc is not who people are referring to as Judoman and who personally appears in the doc. Jane's male friend did not work with Sarah's employer (he is a financial advisor/stockbroker) and the police made a deliberate point of telling the public their POI worked closely with Sarah, his family were wealthy people from England and he was a martial arts expert.

Sarah's employer at the time in 1996 offered engineering, surveying and design services for residential land development, roading development including infrastructure, aerial surveying which could give a hint into why the disposal sites between Jane and Ciara have been chosen and planned. This company were involved in housing development in the Warnbro (very close to Wellard) and to Eglinton. I also wonder if this company would have been involved with the planning stages of the power grid in these areas because a new power grid had been installed adjacent to the Wellard and Eglinton sites. In fact a powerline worker came forward after Ciara's body had been located and stated he had been working on the powerlines there recently and smelt what he had considered was a dead animal in the area.

I've been preparing screen shots of the CIA video to show some of the things I raised yesterday and a couple of extra bits.
 
There's 2 potential scenarios here;

1. The initial report was incorrect. Every time police were asked about it since was hosed down and this explains why it was no longer reported.

2. The initial report was correct. But police wanted to keep this under wraps so every time they were asked about it they hosed it down as being misinformation. Why would they do that? Don't know - it's not as if they need to hide this piece of intelligence from the killer. And if the killer left the Karrakatta victim's clothes there do we really think police would not have made the link? Do we really think if they didn't make the link they wouldn't have appealed to the public to identify the clothing?

At the start of every investigation misinformation is rife whether it be other murders or Malaysian Airline crashes. It happens pretty much every time there is a big case where the stakes are high and rewards for breaking new information are handsome.

One of those options is clearly a lot more likely than the other.

We also need to keep in mind that when these awful events first started, it was rape, sexual assault, assaults and attempted abduction and an actual abduction and this was all prior to Sarah Spiers, so what were the police doing when all this was occurring? Where were the warnings to the public about what was going on in the Claremont area? Where were their pleas for girls/women to come forward if they had experienced anything similar? It would not surprise me to find one day that pressure was put on police by the owners of certain establishments to hush things up.
 
It is possible that Jane knew both martial arts experts but I don't think we should narrow the focus just on judo as there are a multitude of martial arts disciplines. Jane had a wide circle of friends and was closely connected to a man (as a buddy only I've been told) that was connected to hockey circles as well. He did not turn up at her funeral and is now deceased. To me it sounds as though Lynda and Jane were connected for a number of years and this makes me consider if Lynda was a sporty type and into a similar discipline.

There is nothing that I have read or viewed in the CIA doc that indicates to me that both men knew each other. All I am certain of at this point in time is that the POI referred to in the CIA doc is not who people are referring to as Judoman and who personally appears in the doc. Jane's male friend did not work with Sarah's employer (he is a financial advisor/stockbroker) and the police made a deliberate point of telling the public their POI worked closely with Sarah, his family were wealthy people from England and he was a martial arts expert.

Sarah's employer at the time in 1996 offered engineering, surveying and design services for residential land development, roading development including infrastructure, aerial surveying which could give a hint into why the disposal sites between Jane and Ciara have been chosen and planned. This company were involved in housing development in the Warnbro (very close to Wellard) and to Eglinton. I also wonder if this company would have been involved with the planning stages of the power grid in these areas because a new power grid had been installed adjacent to the Wellard and Eglinton sites. In fact a powerline worker came forward after Ciara's body had been located and stated he had been working on the powerlines there recently and smelt what he had considered was a dead animal in the area.

I've been preparing screen shots of the CIA video to show some of the things I raised yesterday and a couple of extra bits.
Why does the other judoman (let's call him The Phantom) have to know JR? The chances of someone knowing all 3 girls and connecting with them whilst they are drunk, alone and astray from the herd whilst his rape and murder kit is in his car is slim. It's possible the real judoman knew all 3 and they got into his car. But the Phantom? If he exists he probably didn't know any of the girls.

How are you certain that Judoman isn't the person everyone thinks? What reason do you think he's on the CIA show for? What do you think the chances are that there's another martial arts expert of the same age with English background? How do you explain the coincidence coupled with the bizarre appearance on CIA?

Do you have a suspect for this Phantom? As in someone who worked at BSD and is a martial arts expert? If you do I think you should say so now because judoman is getting a bad rap.
 
Why does the other judoman (let's call him The Phantom) have to know JR? The chances of someone knowing all 3 girls and connecting with them whilst they are drunk, alone and astray from the herd whilst his rape and murder kit is in his car is slim. It's possible the real judoman knew all 3 and they got into his car. But the Phantom? If he exists he probably didn't know any of the girls.

How are you certain that Judoman isn't the person everyone thinks? What reason do you think he's on the CIA show for? What do you think the chances are that there's another martial arts expert of the same age with English background? How do you explain the coincidence coupled with the bizarre appearance on CIA?

Do you have a suspect for this Phantom? As in someone who worked at BSD and is a martial arts expert? If you do I think you should say so now because judoman is getting a bad rap.

The police on the video made NO mention of judo or judoman; this reference has come from someone on this thread or elsewhere and I have no idea where. The talk on this thread has been about someone, a man, that appears on the CIA documentary and this man knew Jane.

Whereas the police in fact, talked about a POI and they do not use that phrase lightly or flippantly, who was a from a wealthy english background, was 34 years of age at the time (ie 1996 and 1997), who worked closely with Sarah Spiers, and was a martial arts expert and who had met Jane once.

There are many disciplines covered by the term 'martial arts'.

The discussion on here about the man who personally appeared on the CIA video, that knew Jane as a personal friend or acquaintance and who is always referenced on here as Judoman because he just happen to be a highly respected judo participant and trainer (as a hobby) is in my opinion unethical and there is no basis to keep doing this especially given the inference that can be drawn from the discussion is that it is this man the police were referring to as their POI.

I don't have a suspect as you call it and it's not a word I would use on a public forum to describe someone. I do have someone that has piqued my interest and that is all I will say. As far as I am aware this person has not been discussed previously and to do so in such a public forum would be unethical.

I sincerely hope this explanation is clear enough for you because I will be offering no further explanations to you.
 
So you think the man on the CIA documentary needed to be there to tell people Jane was a lovely girl? Her friend Lynda could have done that. Or other friends. But they choose a guy who is over 10 years her senior. If he wasn't tight with her then why him? He didn't add anything of importance so why have him on there at all?

It also just happens this guy is a martial arts expert, around the same age, and has English heritage.

Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's most likely a duck.
 
This is the best online CSK discussion in a long time.

No one here knows who the martial arts expert is. But we all have speculated if he is in the CIA docu or connected to the person on the docu.

Let's explore both theories, as well as the idea that he has absolutely no connection whatsoever. Just an idea to keep this on track. [emoji56]
 
"she was very... soft"

his contribution to the documentary is certainly bizarre.

he was just describing her personality from his perspective that's all, the same as what Lynda did. Soft just means she was sweet vs brash, loud, wild. I think people are reading far too much into this. The police or video producers would be the ones that chose who was going to be included. He might have had connections to the producers...who knows. It also made the detail in the video personal because to exclude friends it may have been a bit clinical.
 
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