Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #2

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Most of them have provided DNA. Latest article on CSK says they are doing familial DNA testing, which means they have DNA, but haven't found the right person who matches.

This doesn't mean none of the above aren't involved, but they may have a limited role such as delivery driver etc.
I highly doubt they have DNA. If they did, it means they have been able to get a DNA profile recently. Otherwise they would have ruled out LW and a few of the others much earlier.

Let's say they have recently obtained a DNA profile;

I believe LW, PW, SR and JM have provided DNA. I would assume WAPOL have MD's DNA just in case. I would also assume they have asked TT for his. If he's refused I'd assume police would make efforts to subpoena his DNA (dependent on how much evidence they have).

Who does that leave? A suspect that we don't know about. I assume they have other suspects who they can test. Anyone who refuses, you think the police would just go get their DNA without their permission, do the test, and if a match then start working the evidence to get enough to go get a court order.

I find it hard to believe the CSK is someone outside the top 4 or 5 suspects and if they had DNA we'd have an arrest. If they're talking familial DNA then they're saying all their main suspects have been cleared and they're looking for someone else.

Keep in mind their are calls for a coroners report and police might be making out things are happening to stave off the coroner getting involved.
 
...
Judoman

Suss
1. Knew 2 of the girls and went to uni with the 3rd. Could have known all 3.
2. Is a POI. He did something that put himself on the radar. Maybe he was reported by many women for trying to give them lifts?
3. Allegedly failed polygraph
4. Suits the profile
5. Had his own house less that 5 minutes away
6. Judo black belt. Could have subdued the girls easily

Flaw in theory
1. If he knew all 3 girls he must have done a lot of km's and waiting until 3 he knew were vulnerable and out in the open.
...

RSBM.

I like this suspect and he fits in with my potential theory (if you could call it that). But I am curious if anyone has any additional impressions of him.

I know many posters live(d) in the area.

1. Is it well-known or suspected of who he may be? (Not asking for a name or initials or anything that could damage the reputation of a potentially innocent man.)

2. Does he still live in the area?

3. The CIA show described his family as wealthy. How wealthy? Millionaires or billionaires?

4. The CIA show said he worked closely with SS. What was his job?

5. How would you describe his looks?

6. How charismatic was he?

7. Did he drive a nice vehicle or average or a clunker?

I understand all answers will just be rumor, and I won't take them as fact. Unless he's given an interview or something that I've missed.
 
RSBM.

I like this suspect and he fits in with my potential theory (if you could call it that). But I am curious if anyone has any additional impressions of him.

I know many posters live(d) in the area.

1. Is it well-known or suspected of who he may be? (Not asking for a name or initials or anything that could damage the reputation of a potentially innocent man.) A lot of people know his identity

2. Does he still live in the area? I believe so

3. The CIA show described his family as wealthy. How wealthy? Millionaires or billionaires? Millionaires. Par for the course in Claremont

4. The CIA show said he worked closely with SS. What was his job? Finance and brokering industry

5. How would you describe his looks? He's no Brad Pitt. I think he would have struggled to get girls in that area

6. How charismatic was he? Never met him

7. Did he drive a nice vehicle or average or a clunker? Don't know but most likely a BMW or Merc etc

I understand all answers will just be rumor, and I won't take them as fact. Unless he's given an interview or something that I've missed.
Answers in bold
 
RSBM.

I like this suspect and he fits in with my potential theory (if you could call it that). But I am curious if anyone has any additional impressions of him.

I know many posters live(d) in the area.

1. Is it well-known or suspected of who he may be? (Not asking for a name or initials or anything that could damage the reputation of a potentially innocent man.)

2. Does he still live in the area?

3. The CIA show described his family as wealthy. How wealthy? Millionaires or billionaires?

4. The CIA show said he worked closely with SS. What was his job?

5. How would you describe his looks?

6. How charismatic was he?

7. Did he drive a nice vehicle or average or a clunker?

I understand all answers will just be rumor, and I won't take them as fact. Unless he's given an interview or something that I've missed.
Pretty sure Judo Man is interviewed on the CSI Australia story as a friend of one of the girls....cant remember which one now. But it was discussed as being quite odd because he did not know her that well in real life but spoke of her as a friend.

Initials are SD. Openly found on FB.

Ill let you piece together the rest.

JudoMan has always been my number 1 on list of POI.
 
Think of it this way:

I don't believe Judoman was on Macro's radar until at least 2004, about the time of the Schramm review. The Schramm review from memory uncovered a couple of new suspects. I wonder if he was one of them?

Let's consider the MM footage;

1. This was released 12 years after the murders. This strongly suggests Macro didn't think it was a priority. If they did they most certainly would have released it earlier.
2. The MM footage coincided with the CIA episode. The CSK CIA episode was marketed heavily and the teaser was the MM footage.
3. The CIA episode was heavily controlled by police. The whole thing was staged by police. Everything about was a strategy focussing on one line of enquiry.
4. They had a guy appear on the show who talked about JR. He'd only met her a few times. It's not as if he's a close friend or family member. Why would they interview him in the first place? Why would this not hit the editing room floor?
5. Towards the end of the show they say they are focussing on two suspects, one of which is judoman.

At the time of the MM video and CIA episode, Judoman was hot. Hot enough to build the only public campaign around since they leaked LW's details. Hot enough to release some unseen footage, build a show around and market it to the hilt.

Judoman has to be high on the list of suspects.
 
Thanks y'all for pointing me in Judoman's direction in the CIA video. Odd that he is one of JR's two friends interviewed. They choose a very close/best friend--the girl who JR was with at the club, who made statements indicating a long friendship, who posted fliers when JR went missing--and Judoman to speak of her disappearance? That's like choosing my lifelong bestie and the guy who lived next door to me for a few weeks.

I don't want to overanalyze his statements because I know they are edited, but what do they add to the show that isn't covered by someone else?

Describing JR:
SD: She, she was just a nice, a nice friendly girl. She was uh, soft...nice, nice girl. She, um, she worked with children. She was always very smiling.

Describing when the woman found JR's body:
SD: When that happened, the, it was like you didn't know what to do. Whether to go over and say, are you okay? Um, can I help you?" You know, what can you, what can you do? It was a very, very nasty time.

I don't think those statements are incriminating. Describing an adult woman as "soft" is creepy, but maybe it's a regional description for kind-hearted or gentle.

As other posters have pointed out, why was his input included in the version aired to the public?

Does anyone think he could be MM? I didn't see it, but I watched on my phone, so the details may be too small.
 
It is well known that certain types of killers will try to get close to the investigation. It allows them to see if they are a suspect and it allows them to be involved, secretly knowing more than LE.

Profilers and experienced LE look for anyone trying to get close to the case and frequently set up public events to bait the killer. LE will stage neighborhood discussions of the crime, fundraisers, awareness events, rallies, town hall meetings, memorials, and other gatherings that focus on the crime but are intended to identify or observe a suspect.

This has to be what LE was doing in the CIA program. It doesn't mean Judoman is guilty. But if you want someone to put their guard down and talk to you, then this is a great way to get to ask them many questions. And we didn't see all his answers--only the unimportant answers.
 
It is well known that certain types of killers will try to get close to the investigation. It allows them to see if they are a suspect and it allows them to be involved, secretly knowing more than LE.

Profilers and experienced LE look for anyone trying to get close to the case and frequently set up public events to bait the killer. LE will stage neighborhood discussions of the crime, fundraisers, awareness events, rallies, town hall meetings, memorials, and other gatherings that focus on the crime but are intended to identify or observe a suspect.

This has to be what LE was doing in the CIA program. It doesn't mean Judoman is guilty. But if you want someone to put their guard down and talk to you, then this is a great way to get to ask them many questions. And we didn't see all his answers--only the unimportant answers.
<modsnip>
Even further, I wonder if they have keywords around sick fetishes to build a database of people who might commit extreme sexual crimes. I'd imagine a serial killer would start off entertaining his sexual desires on the internet and may not start with the knowledge how to use the dark web from the get go. You'd hope police have this capability.
 
<modsnip> Even further, I wonder if they have keywords around sick fetishes to build a database of people who might commit extreme sexual crimes. I'd imagine a serial killer would start off entertaining his sexual desires on the internet and may not start with the knowledge how to use the dark web from the get go. You'd hope police have this capability.

<modsnip>

Good thought about searching for extremely sexually violent fantasies online, hope this is monitored.
 
At one point in time a poster said he or she had seen a version of the CCTV recording that contained additional footage than the footage shown on CIA. Does anyone know if this available anywhere or if the details are posted on any forum? I am curious about the timestamps... I will post my "insight" but I want look at all info available first.

P. S. Probably has been discussed many times, and dismissed for whatever reason, I just haven't seen it
 
Something else that put judoman on top of my list was the criminal profile.
When the profiling was done the criminal was considered as smart, organised and controlled if i remember correctly. Along those lines anyway ill have to see if i can find it again.
Martial arts is all about self discipline.
It was also stated that the criminal possibly had military training IIRC.
Will search later for links to that.
 
Just saw some posts I missed near the end of thread one. They were in relation to the Sunday Evening program and the revelation that Con Bayens, the former head of the prostitution taskforce, stopped a man in an unmarked police car in Highgate. Apparently the man was not a police officer and had suspicious items in the boot of the vehicle.
Con reported the Highgate man to the taskforce, but does not believe his report was given the proper consideration.
So they have to have this guy's name. Are they investigating further? This sounds like the best suspect yet!

Some of the information in the show can be found within this article: https://au.news.yahoo.com/sunday-night/features/a/28288144/why-we-didnt-catch-the-claremont-killer/

I don't believe the show is available in the U.S.
 
Most of them have provided DNA. Latest article on CSK says they are doing familial DNA testing, which means they have DNA, but haven't found the right person who matches.
RSBM.

I highly doubt they have DNA. If they did, it means they have been able to get a DNA profile recently. Otherwise they would have ruled out LW and a few of the others much earlier.
RSBM.

What if they are trying to use DNA from Julie Cutler's disappearance?

If it matches the DNA found on cigarettes in her vehicle great, they found her likely killer who may have committed the other crimes.

If it doesn't match the DNA from Julie's car, then this means nothing. Well it means they didn't find Julie's killer. But the person still could've done the other crimes.

"With advances in technology , we hope DNA can be obtained off cigarette filters that were found in Julie's car ,'' she [Julie's sister Rachel] said."

http://www.crimecasefiles.com/forum/missing-persons/22609-story-on-julie-cutler.html
 
At one point in time a poster said he or she had seen a version of the CCTV recording that contained additional footage than the footage shown on CIA. Does anyone know if this available anywhere or if the details are posted on any forum? I am curious about the timestamps... I will post my "insight" but I want look at all info available first.

P. S. Probably has been discussed many times, and dismissed for whatever reason, I just haven't seen it
We don't know if this footage exists because only one poster said he saw it. The said poster didn't come across as your typical liar type that seems attracted to these threads. The issue I have with it is that if this footage did exist and a group of patrons moved towards the road and then back again, it strongly suggests taxi. They would have had this footage within days and would have spoken to every single person in that group and determined whether they stepped out for a taxi.

I do recall early in the piece seeing to lots of footage but never noticed car headlights. I could have easily missed it because I was focussed on MM rather than whether there were headlights on the road and whether a group momentarily stepped out as if to get in a taxi.
 

Here's the full article in case the link breaks:

PART 1

Published June 2000 by the ABC
Announcer: Ciara Glennon disappeared from Claremont in the early hours of March 15. On the 3rd April, her body was found at Edlington, north of Perth.

Redrock Hotel (formerly the Continental on Bayview Terrace, Claremont. Both Jane Rimmer and Ciara Glennon were drinking there with friends before they were abducted and murdered. Photo by Gerald Tooth.
Gerald Tooth: What is the right thing to do when confronted with absolute evil? How important is it to be fair, to maintain the rules of our society as we struggle to overcome terror?

How do we give people peace of mind when there is no protection from what we fear most: a killer in our midst, a killer who's addicted to killing for the sake of it and has found a way to get away with it time and time again? What do we do and how do we do it?

Do we single out those under suspicion and speak their names before we have the evidence to support those suspicions?

I'm Gerald Tooth and you're listening to Background Briefing.

NIGHT CLUB ATMOSPHERE

Gerald Tooth: We're on a footpath outside a Perth nightclub in the affluent suburb of Claremont. Until recently it was called the Continental Hotel.

From this corner there are a string of cafes, restaurants and shops that run two short blocks to the four-lane Stirling Highway. On a busy street about 150 metres away is the area's only other nightspot, The Club Bayview.

In this part of Perth shoe shops outnumber nightclubs by at least two to one, but it's the nightclubs that have made Claremont notorious. Between January 1996 and March 1997 three women disappeared from these streets at the end of a night out with friends.

Announcer: Sarah Spiers was last seen here at the Club Bayview about 2am last Saturday morning. She told her friend she was tired and was going to get a taxi home.

Gerald Tooth: The first, 18-year-old Sarah Spiers, has never been seen again.

St Quentin Avernue, Claremont, W.A. Halfway down is the Club Bayview. Sarah Spiers walked from there to the far end of the street to call a cab. She hasn't been seen since.
Announcer: The missing woman, Jane Louise Rimmer, spent most of Saturday night drinking with friends at the Continental Hotel in Claremont. Police say she declined her friend's offer to share a taxi home when the pub closed at midnight.

Gerald Tooth: 23-year-old Jane Rimmer went missing on June 9, 1996. Her body was found in bushland south of Perth almost eight weeks later.

Announcer: Ciara Ailish Glennon was celebrating St Patrick's Day with friends at the popular Continental Hotel. She left alone, just after midnight, telling friends she was heading straight home, police presume, by taxi.

Gerald Tooth: 27-year-old Ciara Glennon's body was found in bushland north of Perth three weeks after she was last seen alive.

West Australian Police are convinced the crimes were all committed by one individual, a serial killer.

A police map of the movements of people at Calremont on the night Ciara Glennon was abducted. Photo by Gerald Tooth.
They have also told Background Briefing that they believe that another disappearance, that of 22-year-old Julie Cutler almost a decade earlier, in 1988, is connected.

No charges have been laid in relation to the crimes.

While there are a million rumours, very little is really known about what actually happened at Claremont. We don't know how the women were killed, or anything about how they were lured to their deaths.

The ongoing police investigation is characterised by secrecy.

Announcer: A mother and her children picking flowers in bushland south of Perth found the body of Jane Rimmer on the weekend. Police quickly threw a cordon around the area and began a painstaking search for clues. Details of how the 23-year-old died are now a closely guarded secret. All the police will say is they've gained vital clues from the scene.

Signs outside the Club Bayview, Claremont. Photo by Gerald Tooth.
Gerald Tooth: Those details remained a secret, as they did when Ciara Glennon was found. Police have good reason to keep facts like that to themselves, and there is no argument with that. But things have been very different when it comes to details about Lance, their chief suspect.

At this point it must be pointed out that this man is presumed innocent of these horrible crimes. He has not been charged or found guilty of anything.

Lance, who is in his 40s, lives with his parents in a neighbouring suburb to Claremont. Police stopped and detained him on the streets of Claremont at 3am on the 8th April, 1998. They moved in after an intense surveillance operation over some months had observed him in his car regularly following women as they left nightclubs.

On the night he was taken in, detectives questioned Lance for several hours, then released him. Since then, police have searched his flat and his parents' home, twice. They subjected his car to forensic testing. With his consent, they took DNA samples.

At his request he was subjected to a lie detector test and, at a later date, he consented to a day-and-a-half of psychological analysis.

They openly followed his every move 24 hours a day for over a year, until October 1999, sitting outside his house in an unmarked car, following him to work and home again. It got to the stage that Lance would ring the police to let them know when he was doing anything that wasn't routine, like going to a workmate's farewell party.

Bayview Terrace, Claremont (Redrock Hotel formerly the Continental Hotel) Photo by Gerald Tooth.
During the time of surveillance, and since, no other women have gone missing in Claremont. Four others have disappeared without trace in Western Australia, but police are adamant that those cases are not related.

Background Briefing is not suggesting that this man is responsible for any of these crimes.

This is a story about how an investigation proceeded, an investigation hunting for a multiple murderer who is terrorising a city. And about whether the tactics employed are legitimate.

Someone who thinks they're not is President of the Australian Council for Civil Liberties, Terry O'Gorman. He describes long-term overt surveillance as outright harassment.

Terry O'Gorman: It's not only illegitimate, but it is something that I would hope that the Conference of Australian Police Commissioners would outlaw. One of the conclusions that I hope will come from this case eventually, is that this particular tactic of exerting overt and very public psychological pressure will be outlawed forever. If this is going to be used, then we are very little different from other totalitarian countries that we quite readily criticise, whose police use similar tactics. They have no place in a so-called democracy. It is the first time I have seen this tactic used, I hope it's the last time.

Gerald Tooth: The West Australian Police refused to make comment about the specifics of overt surveillance used in relation to this case, making instead the general statement that overt surveillance was a legitimate and effective technique for monitoring a person's activities.

The West Australian Government also declined to make comment.

Police Minister, Kevin Prince, refused to be interviewed for this program, saying he would not speak about an ongoing police investigation.

Sign outside the Club Bayview, Claremont. Photo by Gerald Tooth.
It's almost two years since it became public knowledge that the police had a prime suspect in the case. Since then there are only two things the police haven't done in their efforts to solve the crime: charge him with anything; or clear him of suspicion.

This lack of decisive action follows the largest, the most sophisticated and the most expensive murder inquiry Australia has ever seen. It's also the most well resourced because of a funding arrangement unique in Australian policing.

Announcer: Neil Ferris and other business leaders in Perth are so concerned by the disappearances and murders, they've set up a special fund to help support the police. They've so far committed a quarter-of-a-million dollars to the campaign.

Gerald Tooth: Private funds have significantly boosted the investigative options open to police in the hunt for the Claremont serial killer. Associates of Denis Glennon, the father of Ciara Glennon, set up The Secure Community Foundation, after she was found murdered. The initial $250,000 grew rapidly. No-one will say exactly how much has been raised so far, but figures from between $600,000 to $900,000 have been quoted to Background Briefing.

Denis Glennon, who is not formally part of the foundation, explains the initial reason it was set up.

Dennis Glennon: Its purpose was initially to provide additional resources to the W.A. Police for a very substantial public campaign to research and gather and seek any information that could help the police in identifying what happened to Ciara, and the two girls before her.

Gerald Tooth: The result was that nine months after being set up in the wake of the first two disappearances, Macro, the name the police gave the task force hunting the serial killer, had extra money to spend.

Already a massive operation with up to 80 police working on the case at any one time, it now had the wherewithal to launch a sophisticated media campaign.

Announcer: Did you see anything that might help trace Ciara's footsteps?

Gerald Tooth: The initial media campaign brought in more than 10,000 individual pieces of information. The Macro task force was also taking proactive steps as it made the most of the Secure Community Foundation funds to import a range of investigative techniques from overseas.

Some of them had been seen here before, but they had never been used in Australia as part of a formal investigation. For example, lie detector tests, carried out on a machine known as a polygraph.

Macro head, Detective Superintendent David Caporn, welcomed the influence of private funds on his investigation.

Detective Superintendent, David Caporn, head of the Macro Task Force that's investigating the murders. Photo by Gerald Tooth.
David Caporn: Now here is where we go into the non-traditional lines that have been covered, and when I say non-traditional, certainly non-traditional in Australia. Some of the things that we've done are very traditional in other parts of the world. One example being polygraph. Now we employed the polygraph, we've employed it on two occasions. On the first occasion it was to basically look at a group of in excessive of 50 individuals that weren't suspects in the crime but had got to the stage where we'd done as much as we could do on these people and we couldn't eliminate them. So we used it as a screening tool, nothing more, nothing less. There was a lot of conjecture that we were just sitting there waiting for someone to fail it so we could say, 'Well ha-ha, we've got the person that committed these crimes.' Nothing further from the truth.

Gerald Tooth: Later someone did fail and as you will hear the use of the lie detector test has now raised more questions than it's found answers for the Macro task force.

The police couldn't have used it in the first place unless the Secure Community Foundation had agreed to pay for an FBI trained expert to come out from the United States with his polygraph machine, not once but twice.

The first trip was, as David Caporn just said, to test over 50 'persons of interest', as the police call them. The next trip, months later, was to give an exam for one, Lance, the chief suspect.

Terry O'Gorman says Macro should never have gone down that path.

Terry O'Gorman: It certainly is in the interest of the Perth community to have this matter investigated as thoroughly as possible, but what is occurring as a result of this glut of private money available, is that police are using dubious, almost Mickey Mouse investigation techniques such as the bringing over of the lie detector expert, which no police administrator would allow money to be spent on because it's full well known that the results of the lie detector test are not admissible in any criminal court in the USA or Australia.

Gerald Tooth: It's Terry O'Gorman's view that private funding has dangerously skewed the Claremont Serial Killer investigation through the use of policing methods that have the capacity to undermine some of the fundamental underpinnings of our judicial system, such as the presumption of innocence which must be afforded every individual up until the time they are found guilty of a crime by a jury of their peers.

He says private funding is a slippery slope that sees police beholden to their benefactors in more ways than one.

For example, in asking the Secure Community Foundation for funding for certain investigative tools, private citizens on the Foundation's board are made aware of details of the investigation, a situation Terry O'Gorman argues is untenable.

Terry O'Gorman: Now it's that sort of worrying implications for fairness in the criminal justice system that I see arising from private funding of criminal investigations. Of course, if we want to get a conviction at any cost, if we want to get a conviction notwithstanding the possibility of a miscarriage of justice, fine. But if we want a fair trial, if we want a balanced trial, then private community funding of police in particular investigations is a major worry.

Gerald Tooth: For the families of the victims though, there are no such concerns. All they want to see is the killer caught.

Denis Glennon argues that the police investigation is more effective because of the community involvement and that it has created a co-operative approach that's about far more than money. He says it's immaterial whether an investigative tool is made available through private funds or not.

Denis Glennon applauds the way the West Australian Police took up techniques never used in Australia before in their pursuit of his daughter's murderer.

Denis Glennon: They were seen as genuine attempts by the police in Western Australia to resolve the killing of two girls, possibly three, possibly four. So no, I wouldn't see them as being controversial.

Gerald Tooth: There is no question though that Polygraph tests are controversial. In the scientific world Polygraphs are the cause of much division and gnashing of teeth. There is a wealth of research literature arguing that they are unreliable. It's been documented that simple tricks like the self-inflicted pain from pressing down on a thumb tack inside a shoe will fool the machine into giving a false reading. There are books and websites on how to beat the Polygraph.

The unresolved scientific debate is largely the reason that polygraph results are not recognised by any Australian courts.

So, in August, 1998, when it became public that Lance had been given and failed a Polygraph test paid for by the Secure Community Foundation, a storm of controversy broke. The West Australian Police are still vehemently arguing that they had nothing to do with the release of the information.

Macro head, David Caporn.

David Caporn: It was certainly not in our interests, either for tactic or judicially sound, or ethically sound, for us to do that, and there was no win in it for us. I mean I think when you put the facts on the table, no-one could legitimately make a case as to why we would do that.

Gerald Tooth: One person who can think of a few reasons is Terry O'Gorman. Building further pressure on the suspect to make a confession for a start, or further down the track priming potential jurors with information that could help towards a conviction should Lance ever be charged.

Terry O'Gorman: That is a significant piece of highly prejudicial information, which particularly in a small city like Perth where the potential jury pool is quite small, and where this particular series of murders have been understandably very much a community issue, I can't see how any juror who has been living in Perth during the time of this publicity can be expected to forget that fact. Most jurors are brought up on a diet of US television, and US television police shows promote the view that lie detector tests are almost completely definitive.

Gerald Tooth: And it's not just civil libertarian defence lawyers who hold grave concerns about the police use of Polygraphs and the subsequent release of results. West Australian Director of Public Prosecutions, Robert *advertiser censored*, is also unimpressed at police leaking of such juror-sensitive information.

Robert *advertiser censored*: I can't imagine a situation in which the results of a test which itself is not admissible in proceedings, could ever be justified.

Gerald Tooth: Would the actions that they took in this instance jeopardise their whole investigation?

Robert *advertiser censored*: It's not a question of jeopardising the investigation of course, the investigation is probably facilitated I suppose, having regard to their methodology by any pressure put on the particular suspect. My anxiety is the risk that the trial will itself be in jeopardy, and of course that's a different level. But again, my concern is that the investigative techniques must be reasonably fair so as to ensure no jeopardy to any ultimate trial.

Gerald Tooth: In your view, were they fair in this instance?

Robert *advertiser censored*: I've already explained that I don't see any basis upon which one could possibly justify the release of information which in some countries is available to implicate an accused person; In Western Australia where that information is simply not available and not properly ever able to be put before a jury.

Gerald Tooth: It's criticism that has Detective Superintendent David Caporn bristling.

David Caporn: If Mr *advertiser censored* said that, he'd be acting in a void, because we have never released the results of the Polygraph test of the individual we're talking about it, and I know that there's been a lot of discussion between the family of that person and the media, some of which I've seen myself on news reports. The fact that we continue to pursue the particular person and continue to pursue the particular person since the test, there's been a lot of speculation about that, and in an investigation that it is subject to the intense media that this investigation's been subject to, it's very very hard to conceal the fact that inquiries were ongoing about this person. We have never released that result, never would release that result. But we can't walk away from the fact that we're still investigating the person. Now the media are putting two and two together. I mean we can't do anything about that.

Gerald Tooth: You say it wasn't officially released; can you say that it wasn't leaked to the media by police? Because if that information didn't come from the police, where did it come from?

David Caporn: It was certainly not in our interest to release the information as to the results of that person's test, so we never did.

Gerald Tooth: David Caporn.

So how, out of all the tens of thousands of pieces of information being handled by Macro, did the lie detector test result of their chief suspect become public? The story was broken on ABC Television by journalist Sue Short. She told Background Briefing that police sources from outside the Macro Task Force led her to the scoop.

When Sue Short approached Macro to confirm the details, she was not discouraged from broadcasting them. As she was busy editing her exclusive piece for that night's bulletin, the police were equally busy doing their bit to spread the story.

Luke Morfesse was the senior police reporter at The West Australian newspaper at the time.

Luke Morfesse: It may have suited the task force, certainly some people in the task force, that the ABC-TV had broadcast that the suspect had failed a lie detector test, and indeed we were contacted, we were alerted the ABC was doing this story and it may be in our interest to pursue the story.

Gerald Tooth: Police alerted you that the ABC was about to broadcast that story?

Luke Morfesse: That's right, yes.

Gerald Tooth: Which would indicate that they knew that the ABC had been given that information.

Luke Morfesse: Well yes I can't really comment on that, but yes, obviously. I'm not sure how our understanding was how ABC-TV got the story, but they knew, and it suited them for it to have an audience beyond ABC-TV.

Gerald Tooth: So they came to you at The West Australian and said, 'This information is going out on the ABC this evening, we're giving you the same information so it will be in tomorrow's newspaper.'

Luke Morfesse: That's right, yes.

Gerald Tooth: And why do you think they did that?

Luke Morfesse: It's all part of that thing with putting pressure on a suspect.

Gerald Tooth: Journalist, Luke Morfesse.

As a way of ramping up the pressure, it worked. To this point the media in Perth had largely stood by an agreement with the police not to identify their main suspect. But the release of the test result changed all that.

Announcer: In an extraordinary move, the prime suspect in the Claremont serial murder case today publicly professed his innocence. He told waiting media he wasn't the killer.

Gerald Tooth: At this stage the suspect had been overt police surveillance for six months. Suddenly he had a whole new type of surveillance to deal with: a media pack in full cry.
 
PART 2

ABC-TV had run the story on Friday, August 31, 1998. As he left work the following Monday, Lance was confronted with a wall of cameras and microphones and a barrage of questions led by Channel 9's crime reporter.

Reporter: Are you the serial killer?

Lance: No.

Reporter: Are you innocent?

Lance: Yes.

Reporter: How has this surveillance affected you?

Lance: It's been very distressing, on me and my family.

Reporter: And how does it make you feel? How long have you been aware that you've been followed?

Lance: Since about April.

Reporter: Lance, it appears now that you've failed the Polygraph test, can you tell us why?

Lance: Well that was a very disturbing thing to me, because I'm the one that suggested I take that test initially, because I'd heard that other people they were investigating had taken it last year, and you know, I had no reason not to take it.

Reporter: Lance, I'll ask you again, because it's what everyone will want to know: are you the serial killer?

Lance: No, I'm not. No. I mean I went in voluntarily to do a test at the police station. I mean I was under no obligation to. I just wanted to, because the police were parked over across from my parents' house on weekends and you know, sort of waiting for me at work and that, I just thought, " Well I'll just go in there, do the test", because I had nothing to hide, you know.

Gerald Tooth: The questions kept flowing until the journalists were spent. Then the issue of identification arose.

Reporter: Lance, are you happy to be identified? Are you happy to come out in public and say that you are the man that's being targeted, are you happy to mention your name?

Lance: Well see, this is something I was going to do when I went home to talk over with my parents. I mean I had no sort of indication earlier that this was going to happen. My parents said there was something on the news on Friday evening I think.

Reporter: If we just say that you had denied. What we're trying to say is that we want to be able to say that you have said you are innocent, that you're not responsible and you are not the serial killer. Are you comfortable with that?

Gerald Tooth: Despite his ambivalent answers, the story, with him in it, was run on every bulletin that night. Most reporters, after legal advice obscured his face with pixillation and did not fully identify him. Channel Ten did however, showing both his face and full name.

In making this program Background Briefing approached Lance on three occasions by phone. After lengthy conversations he declined to record an interview saying he decided to stop talking to the media because it hasn't helped him in the past, and he was sick of constant intrusion.

During the final conversation he became quite agitated, saying that after two years he'd had enough of the whole thing, and was so upset that he was at the point of getting the police to 'just shoot me'.

Terry O'Gorman.

Terry O'Gorman: I think one of the big challenges to the fair trial in Australia, particularly the controversial fair trial, is the amount of pre-charge leaking that goes on in a very organised way by police, through journalists who understandably want a scoop, and who are therefore prepared to be part of this process. I consider that a law change is necessary not only in W.A. but across the country, to make it an offence for any media outlet to publicly identify someone as being under investigation until such time as they are charged. If that proposed law change were brought in, then the particular target in the W.A. Claremont serial killings could not have been publicly known and therefore it wouldn't have been possible for the police to so cynically and deliberately plant information via compliant journalists which the police full well knew that they themselves could not speak about in the public domain.

Gerald Tooth: It seems it would take such a law change before there is any reassessment of the current state of play between the media, the police and their suspects in high profile investigations.

Terry O'Gorman says the current laws relating to prejudicing the fair trial of an individual through adverse media coverage may be very clear, but in practice they are never applied.

Terry O'Gorman: The problem is the High Court, in a series of cases, particularly the Anita Cobby case, where a nurse was very brutally murdered, has essentially said in similar circumstances, 'Look, we're not going to stay a prosecution because of highly prejudicial pre-trial publicity, we will simply defer it in the hope that that highly prejudicial publicity will recede in the minds of potential jurors.' So let me make it quite clear, the law in Australia is that if this particular target is charged, he has very little, if any, prospect of getting the criminal proceedings stayed.

Gerald Tooth: Another high profile policing technique used in the Claremont serial killer investigation was criminal profiling. It's a discipline that was pioneered by the FBI in the United States.

At its simplest, profiling is the use of crime scene facts combined with the known behaviour of convicted serial killers to draw a personality picture of the unknown killer.

For instance, 75% of murders are committed by white males; we have a murder, therefore the offender is likely to be a white male.

Announcer: Claude Minisini has been trained by the FBI. He's also a former colleague of Police Commissioner Bob Falconer, who's used his services before. Yesterday he was flown into Perth after the first major breakthrough in the Rimmer Spears case. The discovery of Jane Rimmer's body in a shallow grave at Wellard, south of Perth, has finally given police a crime scene, and perhaps with Mr Minisini's training and help, a better insight into the mind of the killer.

Gerald Tooth: The Melbourne-based criminal profiler carefully examined the site where Jane Rimmer's body was found and did provide police with a profile of the killer.

His FBI training let Mr Minisini to the conclusion that the man was what is called an organised killer, someone who planned his crimes and carried them out in a very controlled fashion. The other profile option, a disorganised killer, is someone who acts on the spur of the moment.

Armed with the profile, the police called a press conference, where the then head of Macro, Paul Ferguson, told the public what sort of person they were looking for. He then asked the people of Perth to look out for signs that their work colleagues may be having a guilt-ridden response to the discovery of Jane Rimmer's body.

Paul Ferguson: These signs include absence from work, an inability to remain at work for the entire day, a sudden deterioration in work performance, an inability to concentrate, experiencing headaches, sudden changes in plans -

Gerald Tooth: Other details about the killer provided by the profile included that he would have a job, drive a late model car and be meticulous about cleaning it. There was more the police didn't release. From then on though, profiling became the public face of their investigation.

Profiling provided the basis for ads, using Blue Heelers actor John Wood and singer Kate Ceberano.

Kate Ceberano: Like Sarah's family and friends you're agonising over the events of that weekend, because you think someone close to you may be involved in her disappearance. You're worried because you've noticed a change in their routine or behaviour. Whatever it was, ease your mind.

Gerald Tooth: The ads were designed to generate fresh leads, and they did, prompting a flood of phone calls. Police are still sifting through some of that information.

As time goes on without a result though, some people are questioning the worth of Claude Minisini's FBI-based approach to profiling.

Bond University criminologist, Paul Wilson, says the technique extrapolates a lot from a little and that can hinder police more than help them. He also points to the fact that the US Senate halved the bureau's funds for profiling after ruling it lacked a scientific basis.

In academic circles at least, the approach of David Cantor from Scotland Yard is now considered the most effective form of criminal profiling.

Paul Wilson.

Paul Wilson: Well the FBI were excellent in terms of developing profiling, and essentially they developed it based on what they found with convicted serial killers. But Cantor I think has used scientific psychology to be able to make statistical predictions with more accuracy in my opinion than perhaps the FBI are able to do now. The thing about the FBI techniques is that they have not moved on very far from when they were formed in 1980.

Gerald Tooth: Paul Wilson says the FBI approach produces very shallow, general profiles that do little to establish discriminating characteristics that will separate a serial killer from others in the community.

Paul Wilson: I think people who are nervous at work or show nervousness and who wash their car regularly account for a huge proportion of the Australian population, and I think the generality of the profile would do very little except generate lots of leads which would waste police time and resources.

Gerald Tooth: On the phone from his profiling company in Melbourne, called Forensic Behavioural Investigative Services, F.B.I.S., Claude Minisini says it's Paul Wilson's analysis that's shallow and lacking a sound factual base.

Claude Minisini: Paul can sit back and say "Well they were general comments that perhaps distracted the investigation". I was part of the investigation and nothing could be further from the truth. I think that what people forget is that the individuals most cynical about the process of criminal investigative analysis or any other new process that's introduced in an investigative environment, are the investigators themselves. And if they find that what you're saying is very shallow, that it is not helpful, not useful, doesn't provide them with any additional value, they're the first ones to dismiss you and not want to involve you any further.

Gerald Tooth: The proof is in the pudding, in other words. But this pudding is actually about forcing someone to do porridge, and so far no-one has been arrested, let alone sentenced to jail.

Back on the Gold Coast at Bond University, Paul Wilson's colleague, criminologist Wayne Petherick, provides an insight into the FBI profiling philosophy.

He's reading from the FBI textbook definition of an organised killer, which closely reflects the profile details publicised by the West Australian police in the Claremont case.

Wayne Petherick: The determination of an organised crime scene is made based on the fact the offence is usually pre-planned, the victim is a targeted stranger, they tend to personalise the victim, they use controlled conversation, the crime scene reflects an overall theme of control or organisation; they demand a submissive victim, they use restraints, there's aggressive acts prior to death, the body is hidden, the weapon or evidence is absent and they usually transport the victim or body, so what that would imply is that there's usually a primary crime scene, followed up by some either secondary or peripheral crime scenes, or perhaps dump sites.

Gerald Tooth: And then what assumptions are made about what type of person would commit a crime like that?

Wayne Petherick: OK, well once the determination of the crime scene is made, generally they will go across to the offender characteristics. It would then be assumed that the offender has average to above-average intelligence, they are socially competent, they prefer skilled work, they're sexually competent, they have higher birth order, their father's work is stable though they had some inconsistent childhood discipline, they have a controlled mood during the crime, they may use alcohol or drugs with the crime, they usually operate according to some precipitating situational stress, so that could be a fight with a partner, loss of a job, loss of some money gambling, they generally live with a partner, they have a mobility, generally speaking a car that's kept in good condition, and they will follow the crime in the news and the media, and they may change jobs or leave town.

Gerald Tooth: With that last characteristic, can you explain how that has been significant in the Claremont investigation?

Wayne Petherick: It would appear that the media has been used in a certain way, whether it be to goad the offender, try to bring the offender out, try to initiate some kind of behaviour on the part of the offender, through using the media, because it is assumed that the organised offender will follow the crime in the news and media. So what they are hoping is that he is following what they're saying, and may act or react in some way to the information they're giving.

Gerald Tooth: Criminologist, Wayne Petherick.

So there it is, straight from the FBI handbook on profiling: organised offenders follow their crimes through the media. Which is why the FBI use media leaks in an attempt to influence the behaviour of suspects in serial killer cases.

Claude Minisini would have educated the West Australian Police about this approach. But to say that Superintendent Caporn and his associates applied the lesson in Claremont, would of course be mere conjecture.

Claude Minisini.

Claude Minisini: The Macro Task Force investigation was one of the most extensive, intensive and meticulous that I have ever seen both personally or objectively, and been told about. And all models and considerations were taken into account and looked at by the Task Force.

Gerald Tooth: Does the suspect that they have fit the profile that you came up with?

Claude Minisini: Yes, he does.

Gerald Tooth: In what ways?

Claude Minisini: In a number of aspects, and certainly all the aspects that were released to the public, and in the majority of aspects that have not been released to the public.

Gerald Tooth: Whatever the strengths of matching FBI profile characteristics, the police never use them as a basis for making an arrest. Charges are only ever laid on a foundation of hard evidence, and again until charges are laid and proved in court, an individual should be presumed innocent.

There is another school of thought as to why the Claude Minisini profile was apparently so general, and that is because there was simply so little evidence left behind by the killer.

Don Thomson was a criminologist at Perth's Edith Cowan University at the time of the murders.

Don Thomson: In the Claremont abductions and killings, we did not know exactly where the abductions took place. We knew that they took place in the Claremont vicinity, we knew that they took place in the darkness in the early hours of the morning. Bodies were found some weeks later, and the bodies had, over that period of time, deteriorated quite considerably. And so the sorts of clues that one often gets in relation to the victims, or the crime scene, were absent. And that then meant, together with the fact that there were no witnesses or anyone who could shed any light about what might have occurred, gave limited details to build up any sort of profile that one might find useful in assisting the police or in fact assisting the public to try and identify who the offender might be.

Now the difficulty that occurred in the West Australian inquiry was that this profiling had high visibility and the public were led to believe that this profiling would result in an early arrest. That wasn't the case, it wasn't going to be the case, and what it meant was that much of the resources that were put in the profiling were largely ill-directed, and the expectations that were built up within the public were ill-founded.

Gerald Tooth: Not true, says Claude Minisini.

Claude Minisini: We did find sufficient behavioural evidence to be able to make some very strong and incisive conclusions.

Gerald Tooth: And can you go further as to say what they were?

Claude Minisini: No, and I apologise for that. I'm not in a position to - the things that we found at the body disposal sites and what those items and aspects provided us in a profile that has a validity, I'm not in a position to go to it. It's one of the things that in the end will help the police in discriminating against somebody that's providing a false confession and a true confession.

Gerald Tooth: Claude Minisini.

Where profiling is based in the murky science of the mind, DNA testing is based on the much more sure-footed science of biology. The Claremont serial killer investigation saw the first mass DNA testing in Australia.

Path Centre (Perth). Checking the clothing from a crime scene for DNA samples. Photo by Gerald Tooth.
Most of Perth's 3500 cab drivers provided mouth swab samples over Easter 1997, just after Ciara Glennon's body was found. Police strongly suspected a cab driver was responsible for the murders, and repeatedly said so.

Faced with a massive decline in business and the odium that they were harbouring a serial killer in their midst, cab drivers were desperate for a way to restore confidence in their industry. DNA screening seemed to be the answer.

But two years later, if you hail virtually any cab in Perth and ask the driver what he thinks of DNA testing, there's little faith in the process.

CAB DOOR SHUTS

Gerald Tooth: I'm in a cab in central Perth with driver Hugh Maclennon who's the spokesperson for an organisation called Cabbies Against Crime. You ended up taking the extraordinary step, you say, of all cabbies going in for DNA testing. Firstly, was that done at your own suggestion, the cab industry's own suggestion?

Hugh Maclennon: Yes, the cab industry came forward and suggested that we thought it would be good PR for the industry. Sadly it wasn't, it backlashed on us. And the police were quite happy to do it. We had to get certain undertakings from the police before we could get full support from the industry, and that mainly was that the DNA would be used purely for this investigation, and when the industry was no longer considered to be, or someone from the industry considered to be a prime suspect, they would destroy that DNA. So we're still waiting for that to be destroyed and I'm still a little bit concerned as to whether we will finish up having that go into the national database or not.

Gerald Tooth: The National Database that Hugh Maclennon is referring to is called Crimtrac, a joint Federal-State initiative. It's currently being set up.

The Path Centre (Perth). Loading a DNA sample into the genetic analyzer bought by the Secure Community Foundation. Photo by Gerald Tooth.
In anticipation, State governments across the country are currently introducing legislation that will allow for the compulsory collection of DNA samples from both suspected and convicted offenders.

In the public mind, DNA, the blueprint of life, enjoys the status of both truth serum and Delphic Oracle, judge and jury, architect and master builder. It's like the hand of God, present in all things living, and in questions of identification, it brooks no argument.

So why hasn't DNA provided the answer in Claremont?

Belying its reputation as a biological fingerprint that leaves an incriminating stain that lasts for decades, DNA evidence is in fact very fragile. It can be destroyed or contaminated very, very easily.

Leo Freeney is the Chief Forensic Scientist at the John Tonge Centre in Brisbane. He says DNA must be in perfect condition before it is of any real use in a criminal investigation.

Leo Freeney: Well first of all, we start off with the perfect sample, and I'll state that say a bloodstain was shed on a handkerchief, and the handkerchief was kept in a cupboard, out of sunlight and it was dry, the DNA in that sample would be viable for thousands of years, and you'd be able to get a full profile from it.

If that handkerchief was left exposed to sunlight for a day or so, the DNA would be more than likely inactivated, and that's because of the action of the UV light in sunlight. One of the ways we decontaminate our cabinets is by the use of UV light. We turn it on overnight when we're not using it, and that gets rid of all extraneous DNA. So UV light can burn your skin, it can burn DNA.

Now when you get other circumstances such as rain, rain will wash it away obviously. If it's exposed to the elements; if you've got a human body and tropical weather, any surface DNA that's present from say a perpetrator, would quickly degenerate in sunlight, and would also degenerate under the influence of bacteria which feed on protein, which feed on DNA.

If there was semen in the vagina of the dead body, it would tend to last longer than anything that was left on the skin, that was exposed to the elements, but would eventually succumb to the bacterial degradation.

The Path Centre (Perth). Testing for blood on a hockey stick used in a crime. Photo by Gerald Tooth.
Gerald Tooth: What sort of time line are you talking about in those sort of circumstances, a body left exposed to the elements? How long would DNA evidence left on that body or in that body, be viable for?

Leo Freeney: Now the DNA found on a body would probably not be viable for longer than a day I'd say, if it was blood; if it was semen, longer. Depending on the environmental conditions, it would depend on whether it was raining, it would depend on how hot it was. You can think of it in terms of this: if you can spoil food, the conditions which will spoil food and make it unsuitable for eating, will also spoil DNA, because DNA after all, is a biological entity and will degrade just the same as all other biogical entities. So if ever you freeze food, it will last a very long time; if you dry food it will last for a very long time, and that's exactly the same for DNA.

Gerald Tooth: Leo Freeney.

In Perth there were no fresh crime scene samples to be snap frozen in the forensic laboratory.

Both bodies in this case were left exposed to the elements for long periods of time. Nearly eight weeks in Jane Rimmer's case and nearly three in Ciara Glennon's. During both those times it had rained heavily.

The police were not left with much. David Caporn is still putting his faith in DNA, though.

David Caporn: What I can say is that the DNA impact on Macro has been not as significant as it would be in other cases. Now I'm not going to give any more detail than that. I will tell you this, that DNA is certainly the way forward for investigation of this and many other crimes in this part and other parts of the world, this is the way forward, there's no doubt about it.

Gerald Tooth: Did you collect DNA evidence from the crime scenes that could be used to identify the killer?

David Caporn: Obviously I can't go down that path. I've never said what we did or didn't obtain from the crime scenes. What I have said, and I'll confirm it now, is that they weren't the most prolific crime scenes as far as evidence goes. That's about as much as I'm going to say.

Gerald Tooth: Why did you take DNA material from your prime suspect and from Perth cabdrivers if you had nothing to test against?

David Caporn: I've never said we had nothing to test against, and I've also never said that we had. Look, I mean the bottom line is that we're not trying to be cute, the fact is that when we go down the path of investigating a serial crime we're not only dealing with crimes in the past, but the possibility of crimes in the future. When you're dealing with a serial case, it's a little different from a case where you've got a one hour investigation, it's a live happening thing, and you've not only got to prepare yourself for what's happening behind you, but what might happen in front of you.

Gerald Tooth: In other words, the West Australian Police, having obtained DNA profiles from those who volunteered samples for the purpose of clearing their names, are holding on to them for an entirely different purpose. That is, for identification in any future murder.

Meanwhile the cab drivers and Lance wait in anticipation that their names will be cleared. Unless there is another murder it could be a long wait.

Terry O'Gorman again.

Terry O'Gorman: On the information that's been publicly revealed, there's a very strong suspicion that there is no scene DNA, that is, there's no DNA left at the scene of the crime, against which samples that are collected from the target or from various cabbies, can be tested. Now if that's the case, then the whole DNA-gathering exercise has no criminal investigation value, and again, is an exercise in hype and is an exercise in hype whose end result again causes significant difficulties either for the particular target who has been the subject of extraordinary police dubious practices, or for some other person who's eventually charged.

Gerald Tooth: Terry O'Gorman.

In Perth, Dennis Glennon, a scientist himself, would like nothing more than some scientific certainty in the hunt for his daughter's killer. He though, after careful examination of the process, has come to his own conclusions about the perceived certainties of DNA testing.

Dennis Glennon: I think that it can be a very powerful tool if used correctly. And that is the essence of it, if it's used correctly. Now there may be a perception in some parts of the Australian public or community, that DNA is going to be the 21st century tool that'll solve all crimes, that perception of it is there. It's clearly misplaced. It's incorrect.

Gerald Tooth: Again, the Secure Community Foundation played a role in this aspect of the investigation. The Foundation spent around a quarter of a million dollars upgrading Perth's Forensic Laboratory, the Path Centre, where DNA profiling is done. Most of that money was spent on two state-of-the-art genetic analysers.

It's four years since the Macro task force was set up. The task force that investigated the backpacker murders arrested Ivan Milat after eight months.

Macro, with no arrest, is being steadily wound down. From a peak of around 80 there are currently just eight officers working on the case full-time.

Superintendent David Caporn stresses that the investigation itself will never end until there is a conviction.
Lance meanwhile continues to go to work each day, but says he never goes out at night any more. He says he hasn't spoken with police in the last six months and that he's glad the overt surveillance has stopped.

Dennis Glennon continues his work as a high profile environmental scientist and in his own time helps others who have had to confront major traumas in their lives.

Dennis Glennon: If this is successful and indeed whether it is or is not successful, by that I mean a successful outcome to the murders, then I would see the model of the Foundation that's been used here as one that could be beneficial for use in other States in Australia. Now that's all good. I know you would probably return that it hasn't produced results. My answer to that is, yet.... yet.
 
I have heard Julie Cutler's disappearance mentioned, but never seriously discussed as being related to the other three girls. Is this connection totally rejected by other posters?

It's stated here that police told Backyard Briefing (a segment of ABC.net.au) that they believe Julie is connected (select Show Transcript):
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational...onvictions---the-claremont/3473202#transcript

JC is certainly possible. I vaguely recall LW went to uni with her. Can anyone confirm?

When I have time I'll dig up some details on this case because it's fascinating in itself as well as police seemingly being not overly interested.
 
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