Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #3

[88mph]

Because I doubted, as I have written various times, that Holden would have gone to the expense and effort of using a one-off fabric in the run of the mill Commodore.

Also, I don't believe I have stated in my discussions regarding the Calais that there was a Calais station wagon. If you take the time to go back and reread all of my comments I started off by writing that I believed it possible that CG may have been witness speaking to someone driving a station wagon, said no thanks or whatever, then continued on her journey back to Mosman Park, and then another driver, perhaps driving a sedan Berlina or Calais has abducted her.

You're starting to sound a bit like Bart lol !

Thanks for clarifying.

I'm sorry but I believe your conclusion that the vehicle was a Berlina is incorrect. It may well have been a Berlina, but you cannot conclude that from your hunch.

If you look through the history of the Holden Commodore it started with vinyl seats and today has something totally different. Often between model changes, such as from the VR to VS Commodore, Holden would change fabrics or colours to make the car seem different to its predecessor. A fabric colour or texture change was more likely to occur from the VR to the VS as the body shape didn't change (Holden needed a point of difference somewhere else on the vehicle).

It's likely the fibre match is colour based rather than fabric type - or it could be a mix of both.

So yes, colour wise and forensically, Holden would have gone to the expense and effort for a one-off fabric in the VS Commodore.

 

[papertrail]

The Calais and Berlina were upmarket models in that they had all the whizbang new fangdangled electrics and computers installed. - AGREE

Note: Calais was never made in a wagon. Ever.

.

Attached are photos of HOLDEN CALAIS STATION WAGONS

 

[88mph]

I'm not assuming anything, what I write are points of discussion. I have no idea if the tracks off Mortimer where limestone or gravel, but they do not necessarily have to be either. The area I am referring to had not be subjected to any development therefore it could well be hardened claybase / limestone soil as it is also a wetland area.

Who says the perp used his 'brand new car'; he could have used any car to transfer the victims from another more personalized location eg. his home base.

I certainly believe the Pip Rd track looks drive-able. I have also been told that the track that was Marmion Avenue was also well and truly drive-able as well with 2wd; so that is another option of getting to the CG site, not Wanneroo Road. Look at the Pip Road location for 1995 in the attached aerial shot and there are a couple of tracks that lead off the Marmion Track, one in particular is close to the actual track that was the access to the CG disposal site. I've include yellow arrows to show this track off Marmion track. just before this track ends at Pip Road, you can turn right onto a track than runs parallel to Pip Rd and that gets you to the CG site.

Don't forget there had been a considerable amount of rain prior to both JR and CG discoveries.

If the CSK was using his Commodore to drop CG off, he was 100% going down Waneroo Road onto Pip Rd. The small track off Pip Rd at the drop site is a mix of limestone and hard sand, easily accessible for a Commodore.

The other tracks that you've highlighted are in some parts, serious four wheel drive tracks and somewhere you wouldn't want to get bogged with a body in your trunk. Extremely unlikely these tracks were used.

 

[papertrail]

thanks for clarifying.

I'm sorry but i believe your conclusion that the vehicle was a berlina is incorrect. It may well have been a berlina, but you cannot conclude that from your hunch.

If you look through the history of the holden commodore it started with vinyl seats and today has something totally different. Often between model changes, such as from the vr to vs commodore, holden would change fabrics or colours to make the car seem different to its predecessor. A fabric colour or texture change was more likely to occur from the vr to the vs as the body shape didn't change (holden needed a point of difference somewhere else on the vehicle).

It's likely the fibre match is colour based rather than fabric type - or it could be a mix of both.

So yes, colour wise and forensically, holden would have gone to the expense and effort for a one-off fabric in the vs commodore.

the berlina was the only model that had different upholstery which was velour. Look at the specs that mel found and i posted the full copy of those specs yesterday. Bret's recent article detailed that the particular model holden commodore vs series 1 had specific upholstery only relative to that model.

 

[papertrail]

If the CSK was using his Commodore to drop CG off, he was 100% going down Waneroo Road onto Pip Rd. The small track off Pip Rd at the drop site is a mix of limestone and hard sand, easily accessible for a Commodore.

The other tracks that you've highlighted are in some parts, serious four wheel drive tracks and somewhere you wouldn't want to get bogged with a body in your trunk. Extremely unlikely these tracks were used.

As I wrote, we don't know if the perp used his VS Series 1 vehicle do we, he could well have used any vehicle after he had done his terrible deeds -- perhaps a 4wd given that he pre-planned he would have checked out accessibility of his sites

 

[88mph]

Attached are photos of HOLDEN CALAIS STATION WAGONS

I stand corrected.

Holden never made a Calais Wagon prior to the VE.

Unless he had a time machine, the CSK was not driving a Calais wagon.

 

[papertrail]

Thanks for clarifying.

I'm sorry but I believe your conclusion that the vehicle was a Berlina is incorrect. It may well have been a Berlina, but you cannot conclude that from your hunch.

If you look through the history of the Holden Commodore it started with vinyl seats and today has something totally different. Often between model changes, such as from the VR to VS Commodore, Holden would change fabrics or colours to make the car seem different to its predecessor. A fabric colour or texture change was more likely to occur from the VR to the VS as the body shape didn't change (Holden needed a point of difference somewhere else on the vehicle).

It's likely the fibre match is colour based rather than fabric type - or it could be a mix of both.

So yes, colour wise and forensically, Holden would have gone to the expense and effort for a one-off fabric in the VS Commodore.

yes but not in the run of the mill every dad and dave's commodore. all the literature about the VS Series 1 state electronics and a couple of other components eg airbags and in the article Mel found it is quite specific about the fabric upholstery being totally different for Berlina.

I'd be interested to read documents you discover that show the ordinary commodore's fabric upholstery being a one-off.

 

[papertrail]

I stand corrected.

Holden never made a Calais Wagon prior to the VE.

Unless he had a time machine, the CSK was not driving a Calais wagon.[/QUOTE

we are not talking VE we are talking VS

This is a waste of time because the station wagon is more likely to be a berlina

 

[papertrail]

this article refers to the Calais and Berlina as "luxury variants" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holden_Commodore_(VS)



I would call 'luxury' upmarket when discussing vehicles

 

[silver tongue]

does anybody have any info on romuald zac as far as i can find out he was found hung on the grounds of graylands hospital ,[ he was a patient], on the 21st may 1997 2 mths after the CSK .ended, He [supposedly] worked with CG, his mother swears he was murdered http://dahois.com/www/ romuald zac murder.com.html

 

[J35]

The other tracks that you've highlighted are in some parts, serious four wheel drive tracks and somewhere you wouldn't want to get bogged with a body in your trunk. Extremely unlikely these tracks were used.

I second this view for the tracks on West side of Woolcoot Rd.

 

[elastic]

A Main Roads employee would have access to various cars and models as well.

I have been told by an ex taxi driver that driver's used to give out their personal telephone number so that girls could contact them direct instead of phoning through to the taxi company. Had something to do with cost of flag fall which was an auto meterage charge added to final cost if driver accepted call from taxi company. And that the phone booth that SS used, had various numbers written / scratched into it by taxi drivers. Although SS's call was captured on tape by the taxi firm was it not ? Are they absolutely 100 percent sure it was her ?

I am sure girls would be wary of a Testra marked vehicle out and about after midnight.

I am sure they are 100% that Sarah Spiers made the call, rule that one out.

When were you going to post your Lance Williams Dot point by the way Papertrail?

 

[elastic]

Because I doubted, as I have written various times, that Holden would have gone to the expense and effort of using a one-off fabric in the run of the mill Commodore.

Also, I don't believe I have stated in my discussions regarding the Calais that there was a Calais station wagon. If you take the time to go back and reread all of my comments I started off by writing that I believed it possible that CG may have been witness speaking to someone driving a station wagon, said no thanks or whatever, then continued on her journey back to Mosman Park, and then another driver, perhaps driving a sedan Berlina or Calais has abducted her.

You're starting to sound a bit like Bart lol !

The news paper article specifically says that the car is a VS Commodore Series 1 White (Possibly stationwagon) it mentions that the fabric was 'specific' to the 'white' colour models. This does not mean it was a Berlina, what it actually means is that there is some way to determine that the upholstery was specific to the colour 'white' in the VS Commodore Series 1 White (Possibly Stationwagon) Vehicle. If that same fabric that you are talking about in the Berlina comes in any other colour of the 'Berlina' model then your theory has no basis as you are not interpreting the wording correctly in the various newspaper/s.

If they had said it was a certain type of fabric for a certain type of model I am sure they could have determined the Berlina model from the fibres they had. It seems more probable the fibres are linked to the 'white' VS Commodore Series 1 (Possibly Stationwagon) Vehicles rather than a particular model.

 

[J35]

Having looked at some velour seats in models from the period,
how did a transfer of fibers occur? - the strands are very short and fine, and given that it was a near new car in 1996, surely the seats were not in such a state that bits of the velour were separating. Did the boot carpet have anything special in it? the floor carpet looks more likely to transfer, along with the dash mat.

 

[elastic]

I second this view for the tracks on West side of Woolcoot Rd.

Yes it is very unlikely he would have dared attempted to use those tracks if he had any common sense. They are 4WD tracks and you wouldnt last 10m even with a runup in a VS Commodore. If the CSK is powerful enough to undertake a blitz attack and bungle his victim into a vehicle tieing them with whatever rope/line 'washing line' then I am sure he would have just picked the victim up and placed them over his shoulder whilst he carried them to the dump site.

If he was prepared to stalk and lurk around Claremont I am sure taking 60-120 seconds to dump the victim would have been comfortable for him given the time we all believe he dumped the body (early morning, the time of the morning with the least amount of traffic in the entire day in a very remote street) the road would have been very quiet and the killer would have probably known that.

 

[elastic]

Thankyou you are correct https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Road

The freeway 100% ended at Thomas road. He more than likely took Cockburn road, or even 'Stock road' via Canning/Leech hwy or South Street, that is a possibility if he was more familiar with those roads.

 

[Parkie]

Some of you seem to be able to comment all day & night. Geez. Gidday Sutton. Yes I will comment on John of UK, & then later will comment on what he said. John of UK appeared a bit of a nut but had his heart in the right place so to speak. John of UK got some of his info from Casey Prins, WAPD. He got tidbits from Malcolm Boots (UK) as well. Yes it was jumbled & needs careful deciphering.(more later) Now; My take is JR was taken down the Freeway to Thomas Rd, Then a head right to Johnston rd & heading south & down to either Mortimer & onto to Woolcoot or Miller & then Woolcoot. If he went via Miller then why head North along Woolcoot? Does not make sense hey? It was remote enough at Miller/Woolcoot corner. So that leaves Mortimer road & right onto Woolcoot till he ran out of horse/lifestyle properties nearer the end by the unsealed bit. Mundijong Lakes are the spookiest place for SS imho.

 

[elastic]

Consider a Telstra employee.

1. May have had access to a van similar to that used in the Karrakatta rape. Though you'd assume it would be full of tools and not offering much room for the perp, possibly explaining why he decided to take the victim out of the van into the cemetery.
2. Would have had access to phone cord to tie up the Karrakatta victim.
3. Van to Wagon switch - may have had access to pool cars or possibly received a promotion.
4. Police apparently DNA tested as many Commodore Wagon owners (or those with access) for DNA as they could. If it was a pool car, this could explain how he slipped through this net.
5. Would do lots of driving across Perth to maintain communication lines or whatnot. This fits the MACRO profile of 'lots of driving' and perhaps explains the knowledge of disposal sites.
6. Trusted. A government telecommunications person is arguably a trusted professional. Might explain how he was able to get GC near his car.
7. Hiding in plain sight. A Telstra van/wagon/employee could be sitting in their van anywhere and you probably wouldn't blink an eye.
8. Access to phone lines or taxi lines? Would the technology have existed back then to tap into phone lines or taxi dispatch? Might explain SS
9. Link to printing industry. I've got no idea how this could fit into this theory.

That's a very high-level theory at best, though I'd like to know if any of you could add any other links to a Telstra employee and known facts about CSK.

I think people would notice a Telstra van.

I thought it was a Panel Van anyway according to the various articles. Panel vans weren't similar to Vans tradies used, Panel Vans were what Surfies used and they looked distinctly different. Remember Karrakatta victim walked passed the vehicle first and saw what type it was before soon after being bound with something put over her head and thrown into the back of that vehicle, later identified as a 'panel van'

The rope or cable was 'washing line' or so we are lead to believe, not Telecommunications cable/phone line.

 

[elastic]

mentions DNA http://www.serialkey.com.au/serial-key-articles/1998/11/28/prime-suspect/

Definitely reads like someone knew they had DNA early (or earlier) in the investigation:
Police are refusing to release any information on the results of the tests but it is believed that scientists have been unable to match it with any DNA found on the two dead women.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Two lots of DNA found in 1998 before Karrakatta, or could just read differently depending on how you want to read it,[/FONT]

 

[elastic]

Interesting 3/12/04 ABC transcript re Malcolm Boots' involvement and 'a find'.
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2004/s1257731.htm

Interesting about the below.

DAVID WEBER: Since the investigation started, WA Police have named three individuals that they've dubbed "persons of interest". One man has been a long-term focus for the investigation, the other two were named only this year. None have been charged; all have declared their innocence.

Joel Kohout came to Perth from the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension in Minnesota. Ms Kohout carried out criminal profiling.

JOEL KOHOUT: These persons of interest, or suspects as I would call them, are worthy of the attention they're getting. That isn't to say that there might not be further suspects that develop that are worthy of the same attention. But, you know, when you have a case, any investigation, it's hard to move on too far until you can get certain people in or out of it one way or the other.

So in December 2004 they had officially identified 2 additional suspects along with Lance Williams, so 3 suspects or 'Persons of Interest'. When they say named this year they mean identified 'extra persons of interest' or did they publicly name these extra two individuals?

What was the arrest date of Donald Morey and how does that line up exactly with the above date December 2004. Is that the reason for Highgate man coming on the radar late after Bayens recommended they looked into the guy earlier in the investigation, Morey showed up as a serial killer a few years after the highgate face off back during the Police Sting which they found his boot lined with plastic and car done up like an unmarked Police vehicle

The other man must be Martial Arts Expert, who most of us here believe is Judoman.

WAPOL did announce that Lance was still being investigated and quashed the rumours that he was no longer the target of Police investigations, so maybe that is true, maybe it is not just a potential law suit causing them to say this.

Does anyone remember the Peter Weygers search by the Police, they literally initiated the search based on a clairvoyant. That is not a joke, how that is even possible is anyone's guess, but it looks like those two are definitely cleared (Weygers and Ross).