Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves

New Posts

Status
Not open for further replies.
[video=youtube;nNNF1E3mg3c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNNF1E3mg3c[/video]

Here's how I calculated it (same as others but a bit more detail):


23:58:37 -> 23:58:48 - Door cam - JR standing on kerb and then walks 2m onto Bay View Tce. Camera cuts when she on Bay View Tce

-----
5 seconds missing. Where did it go?
-----

23:58:53 -> 23:58:59 - Corner Cam - JR now back on the kerb

-----
Footage jumps ahead 1 minute and 48 seconds
-----

00:00:47 -> 00:00:49 - Corner Cam - JR still on kerb

-----
Footage jumps ahead 29 seconds
-----

00:01:18 -> 00:01:20 - Door Cam - JR still on kerb

-----
Footage jumps ahead 11 seconds
-----

00:01:31 -> 00:01:38 - Corner Cam - JR still on kerb

-----
There's now a segway where Leibman explains MM is about to appear. 2-3 seconds is lost but it's on the same camera (Corner Cam)
-----

00:01:41 -> 00:01:42 - Corner Cam - MM appears

-----
Footage jumps ahead 28 seconds. What we don't see is how long MM talks to JR for and in what direction he heads in.
-----

00:02:10 -> 00:02:19 - Door Cam - MM is gone, JR standing on kerb

-----
Footage jumps ahead 1 minute 39 seconds
-----

00:03:58 -> 00:04:09 - Door Cam - JR still on kerb

-----
No footage lost despite Leibman saying 28 second jump
-----

00:04:10 -> 00:04:19 - Corner Cam - JR still on kerb

-----
Footage jumps 31 seconds
-----
00:04:50 - Door Cam - JR has disappeared



-------------------------------------------------------------

A few observations:

1. The police have edited the footage. The whole sequence from being out front alone to walking onto Bay View Tce, to MM appearance, to disappearance is 6 minutes. You can see why they had to edit it. But how selective were they? They did chop it up enough so we could see how many seconds each Cam is set to. The longest run on 1 Cam we can see is 11 seconds. Maybe they are set to 20 seconds before changing to the other?

2. As proven previously, the cameras are continuous. Both Door Cam and Corner Cam can see JR. And they have the footage but decided to edit it out. They know if she got into a car or if she walked off, then in what direction.

3. They also don't show us what direction MM walked off in, nor how long he talked to her before

4. It seems obvious to me this footage was release to promote the CIA episode and MM was just a red herring. <modsnip>

5. There was approximately 2 minutes and 30 seconds between MM leaving and JR disappearing. Enough to go get his car (although I don't believe this is what happened)

6. As mentioned by others, she walks onto Bay View Tce because she's waiting for a cab/car.


There's a camera on JR at all times and they have the footage. They either know if she got in a car or walked across the road or around the corner etc.
 
^^

As we've discussed, I agree with everything you've said above but I'm now far more interested in MM for the simple fact that we're missing footage. Critical footage.

There must be someone posting or reading that has seen the entire unedited version, 1 of the magical 700 who I assume probably saw the missing MM interaction though maybe not the missing departure footage.
 
Why no more appeals for MM in the past 7 years if they don't know? They received 150 calls afterwards. (And this is assuming they didn't already know who it was)

By requesting the calls pertain to such specific clues they hopefully kept all the crazies from phoning in about their neighbours.
 
<modsnip>

<modsnip>

Without DNA it's going to be a largely circumstantial case. I think they've got a handful of solid suspects. Their best hope is recovering the missing jewellery and clothing, without this or a confession I think they'd struggle to put a case together almost 20 years later.
 
Ok sure. I was more concerned about his life in terms of family etc. Not sure how much about that area of his life will be able to be gleaned online.

I thought the information around the deaths of the young women was extremely guarded. So there were clothes and jewellery missing? Anything other information released?
 
JMC44 said:
Ok sure. I was more concerned about his life in terms of family etc. Not sure how much about that area of his life will be able to be gleaned online.

I thought the information around the deaths of the young women was extremely guarded. So there were clothes and jewellery missing? Anything other information released?
Click to expand...

Facebook will help.

The police released the details of the missing jewellery early on in the investigation - some details here http://www.abc.net.au/austory/content/2003/s1042100.htm

The clothing might be speculation, will check and see what I can find.
 
Thanks. You seem quite clued in/smart perthite. In a brief sentence or two, what do you think happened in terms of the crime, not the ensuing case?
 
JMC44 said:
Thanks. You seem quite clued in/smart perthite. In a brief sentence or two, what do you think happened in terms of the crime, not the ensuing case?
Click to expand...

Contrary to a lot of my posts I prefer to keep speculation to a minimum. As I don't have any useful information to go on, I don't really have anything to add about the cause of death at this time. I also prefer not to think about it so I haven't given it enough thought to give a well considered answer.

1) The Taxi theory - girls get in a taxi and are subdued early in the journey. This theory lends itself to either a 1 or 2 man job for want of a better term.

2) Friend or acquaintance - offers the girls a lift, it's late, they've been drinking and it's a free ride with someone they're reasonably comfortable with.

Option 1 probably requires the 'blitz' attack, option 2 doesn't necessarily.

I'd need a lot of compelling information to move me away from either of the above options. These are the most likely or plausible scenarios in my book. This way of thinking has the disadvantage of skewing my reading of all the information available to fit my theories but I do think they're solid.

Not exactly a brief answer :)
 
Taxi theory is more persuasive. My gut tilts me toward a vague acquaintance though.
 
Just to answer some questions I often have of other posters.

1) I'm too young to be the CSK
2) I'm interested in this case as a *fan of true crime, this happened where I grew up and live, and this case can be solved.

The more useful information we can gather the better chance of an outcome. While we are probably not adding much value, I think it's safe to assume that WAPOL are reading this and perhaps someone posts the right bit of information.

*I apologise for the use of the word fan.
 
so.. tarp guy..

is anyone else concerned that this guy was caught driving less than 5 years from 1997? did the CSK give him some inspiration or what? is he the dumbest guy in the world cruising around with an abduction kit through a city that's on the lookout for a serial killer?

not knowing much info about the CSK case you'd have to think that he'd be aware that he was risking being nailed for those killings as well? plus for other missing women in the area?
 
billywhizz said:
so.. tarp guy..

is anyone else concerned that this guy was caught driving less than 5 years from 1997? did the CSK give him some inspiration or what? is he the dumbest guy in the world cruising around with an abduction kit through a city that's on the lookout for a serial killer?

not knowing much info about the CSK case you'd have to think that he'd be aware that he was risking being nailed for those killings as well? plus for other missing women in the area?
Click to expand...

The police, in their statement to the producers of the show appear to have dismissed him from their inquiry.

That bloke has to be guilty of something though - I wonder if he's been arrested etc on unrelated matters? You'd hope so.
 
Bartholemeus said:
So there's a documentary on the CSK. The Police are heavily involved in the production and content of this doco. In the doco they interview JR's best friend and a guy who has met her once or twice. Both make comment about Jane.

He also happens to be a martial arts expert, is wealthy, lives local. At the end of the show they mention a suspect who is a martial arts expert, is wealthy and lives local.

For what reason do you think he's a part of that doco? Don't you think they'd be asking someone else about Jane (like a family member, another close friend or close work colleague)?

This was all explained on BF. Which part did you not agree with?
Click to expand...

I was just wondering how people knew that the person in the CIA documentary was one of the suspects. So people are just putting 2 and 2 together. I haven't read all the BF thread yet.

I don't know why the person in the documentary would be talking about Jane if he only knew her very casually. I'll try to read more of the BF thread when I can.
 
perthite said:
Contrary to a lot of my posts I prefer to keep speculation to a minimum. As I don't have any useful information to go on, I don't really have anything to add about the cause of death at this time. I also prefer not to think about it so I haven't given it enough thought to give a well considered answer.

1) The Taxi theory - girls get in a taxi and are subdued early in the journey. This theory lends itself to either a 1 or 2 man job for want of a better term.

2) Friend or acquaintance - offers the girls a lift, it's late, they've been drinking and it's a free ride with someone they're reasonably comfortable with.

Option 1 probably requires the 'blitz' attack, option 2 doesn't necessarily.

I'd need a lot of compelling information to move me away from either of the above options. These are the most likely or plausible scenarios in my book. This way of thinking has the disadvantage of skewing my reading of all the information available to fit my theories but I do think they're solid.

Not exactly a brief answer :)
Click to expand...

Why do you not consider that the girls were offered a lift from a friendly/charming stranger? Do not forget all of the girls were intoxicated and this could have affected their decision making or lowered their inhibitions. I think that it is far more unlikely that the CSK was a vague acquaintance of all three girls, this is too much of a coincidence. Serial killers are historically random when choosing their victims, they hardly ever choose victims they know. They choose victims based upon their vulnerability, its more opportunistic.

All three girls were very vulnerable at the time of their disappearance. Intoxicated, alone, young and out late at night. The CSK would ALMOST CERTAINLY have to have been patrolling the streets of Claremont waiting for an opportune moment to strike. It's just way too much of a coincidence that they happened to be driving past at the time the girls went missing.
 
Bookmarking - :coffeews:
Sorry for the interuption
 
This is whatI have come up with for possibilities for Sarah's abduction. All girls would be similar IMO.

Lines of enquiry and possibilities:

1) Sarah caught a Taxi to Mosman Park arrived safely and something happened to her at her friends place in Mosman Park. Therefore, her friend that lives their is a POI. I take it the Police searched the place at the time and interviewed Sarah's friend initials (DS). He must have had a rock solid alibi for their whereabouts that night, all be it a statement would have been recorded from everyone that was sleeping at the flat that night. Obviously this could be confirmed by Taxi records and speaking with Taxi drivers that would've dropped her off there. Obviously, there is no record of her arriving at the friends place via Taxi. Still a LOE that requires investigating.

2) Sarah caught a legitimate or illegitimate Taxi and the Taxi driver was the CSK. I would summise that for the driver to be alone and to trap the someone inside the vehicle, he would've needed to have modified the doors, as Ford Falcons of that era could easily be opened from the inside door handle even if the doors were locked. The only way to stop this (on the front, child lock for rear) is to remove the inner door handles, which can simply be done by removing one screw from the door trim and sliding the handle off. If drunk, it's possible that you may not notice the handle is not there until you shut the door. But if you are clever it's possible to simply cut the plastic door opening lever that connects to the handle and put the handle back on, noone would ever know it didn't work until you tried to open the door. Also the window winders on Ford Falcons of that era are simply removed as well, by removing one retaining clip. Someone with mechanical knowledge would know this. Also, the driver would've needed to control Sarah quickly once or if she discovered the Taxi was not heading to where she expected, (even if she was trapped in the back or front of the Taxi). How would the driver do this? It would be easy if someone else was in the Taxi, but it's unlikely that Sarah would've gotten into the Taxi when someone else was already in there, especially a male person. It's also a possibility that the driver could've been alone at first, then stopped to pick up a co-offender. It's also a possibility that the driver contained some sort of weapon to threaten her with to keep her quiet. But the problem with this scenario is getting her out of the vehicle. This would have to be done somewhere out of sight, once they had arrived at their destination (scene of the murder), which is likely to be within 5-10km of Claremont itself, but not an out and out impossibility that it's further.

Therefore, the Taxi industry is a line of enquiry. Forensic examination of over 900 Taxis occurred and DNA swabs were taken from all Taxi drivers. I would hope that all Taxi's would have been fingerprinted on the inside of each door glass, door handles etc. Furthermore, DNA swabs could of been done of the inner door handles and other high traffic areas etc, however, I would think it is highly unlikely that any DNA would have been obtained, if it was the results would've been tested against Sarah's and obviously were not matched up. Sarah's DNA would've been obtained from household items like a hairbrush, toothbrush or from siblings. Due to the sheer scale of this forensic task, it's possible that the forensics is still being worked on by WA Police.

3) Sarah was offered a lift by a person she did not know in a vehicle shortly after making her phone call and she accepted the lift. The person may have seemed friendly and was driving an normal/average looking vehicle. Due to Sarah's inebriated state, she may have accepted the lift. Once inside the vehicle the situation would be similar to LOE 2, but I would doubt that the vehicle would be modified as the make/model of the vehicle is almost endless. It could be as simple as just putting the child lock on and if it had electric windows, just locking them off or removing the fuse what ever the possibility. The timing in which Sarah was abducted would seem to be "too lucky" for the CSK to just be driving past and see Sarah on the side of the road and offer her a lift. Sarah would've needed to have been stalked/followed upon her leaving the Continental Hotel, then the CSK would simply have waited for an opportune moment to drive past, act charming and offer her a lift. Further to this it is also a possibility that the CSK may have already known Sarah's whereabouts that night and the suburb in which she lived, so the CSK may have pulled up and said to her "Hey I'm headed to South Perth, do you want a lift". The offer would seem to good to refuse for Sarah. This is pure speculation on my part, but if Sarah had a PC at the time she may have had access to an on-line chat program and perhaps the CSK obtained some information as to her movements and her suburb of residence via such a program like MIRC or messenger, they may have even swapped pictures. The depth of the stalking could also be quite deep, Sarah may have been stalked on previous weekends/nights so the CSK may have obtained valuable information about her identity, which would of assisted when offering he a lift she found hard to refuse. I assume the Police would've seized her PC if she had one and had it examined by a digital analyst and that information would have been uncovered, if it was there. That's if Police had thought of that possibility.

4) Sarah was stalked upon leaving the Continental Hotel and then subjected to a blitz attack before being bundled into a vehicle and driven away. I find this scenario to be very very unlikely, although it is a possibility. If it is the case, then their must be two or more people involved. I find this unlikely due to the following reasons; It is risky, that someone will see that attack and report it to Police; when murders are carried out between two or more people it is unlikely that all people involved can keep the secret without confiding in anyone; especially for near on 20 years! Another reason that I believe that a blitz attack is unlikely is the circumstances surrounding Sarah's and Jane's disappearance. The window of opportunity for such an attack on Sarah is too small and the scene of the attack far to obvious to attract attention on the corner of a highway even at 2am. Jane disappeared from outside the Continental Hotel in front of people all on camera, very unlikely she was blitz attacked. Ciara is a different story.

5) Sarah hitch hiked and accepted a lift from a complete stranger who just happened to be the CSK driving by at just the right time, between her making a phone call at 2.06am and before the taxi arrived at 2:09am. It's just too unlikely that this occurred and I'm sure that the Police would've investigated her background checked with her friends to see if she used to hitch hike or obtain lifts from strangers. With circumstances similar to LOE 3, accept for the stalking.

6) Sarah was offered a lift by a friend or someone she knew only briefly, but well enough to accept the lift. Unlikely scenario as this means the CSK is known to Sarah and would be much easier to identify.

So, out of those possible scenarios, which one/s are the most likely. In my opinion I would have to say line of enquiry number 3 would have to be the most likely scenario that occurred to Sarah. Followed by number 2. Once option 2 was exhausted then option 3 is the only one that is left.
 
perthite said:
So are you suggesting there is footage from a fixed camera that captures JR leaving?
Click to expand...

Yes I'm suggesting there is footage that show's the headlights of a car pulling up. A group going to get in and being waved back as JR steps forward to said vehicle. It was removed within 24 hours and the police made a statement they released the wrong footage but used other reasons.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

DNASolves

Who is Escambia County John Doe (1989)?

Members online

... and 168 more.
Total: 1,629 (members: 169, guests: 1,460)

Online statistics

Members online
169
Guests online
1,460
Total visitors
1,629
Totals may include hidden visitors.

Forum statistics

Threads
598,501
Messages
18,082,369
Members
230,648
Latest member
aspirelights
Back
Top