CO- Dylan Redwine, 13, Vallecito, 19 November 2012 - #47

[RANCH]

BBM, it does look like it to me. Not exactly, but I think it's the right company/logo. Granted I could barely see the shirt until someone blew it up, so take it for what it's worth... :twocents: but as soon as someone posted the larger pic this is the logo I was thinking was on Dylan's shirt. Right font, lettering, shape, etc. Assuming it's the same logo IMO the lettering seems a lot lighter in the Walmart pic, like maybe it's just showing the outline? Or a really faded shirt?

To be honest I'm not sure what Dylan's shirt says. I actually found a Nike shirt that looks more like the Walmart photo but it had Beaverton Oregon on it so I disregarded it as a possibility.

There are so many licensed shirts out there along with unlicensed knockoffs that it's hard to say what that shirt says and where it came from. It may not even mean anything unless Dylan is found and with what clothes. MOO.

 

[Redhead72]

We, being anyone collectively, truly don't know the results of anyones polygraph, as LE has refused to release that information.

If MR is such a liar, as many think him to be, why not lie about that?

In reality, we only have the word of the individuals of what their results were.

In regard to the polygraph, MR really didn't give a definitive answer either way. However, one thing he did say in regard to the polygraph was that "there was some question about whether or not the person was capable of performing that... polygraph". LE immediately stated after the show that this was definitely false - that there was no question about the competency of the polygraph examiner that was used.

So, indeed, it is proven that MR lied in the following exchange in regard to the polygraph he took with the LE. There was no question in regard to the capabilities of the polygraph examiner.

From the transcript of the DP show on Day 1:

Dr. Phil:
Did you take a polygraph in this matter. Did the police ask you to take a polygraph?

MR:
I did. They did ask me...

Dr. Phil:
And what were the results?

MR:
Well,… there’s been some conflict as to what the actual reaser… (Stumbles on word) results are.

Dr. Phil:
Well, what did they tell you?

MR:
Well…they told me that I failed it. Then they told me it was inconclusive… and there was some question about the person giving the polygraph as to whether or not they were capable of performing that… polygraph test…

BBM

I will find the press release that details the LE statement about the qualifications of their polygraph examiner if anyone needs me to do that to verify that LE did indeed release a statement discussing this specific statement that was made by MR on the DP show.

MR couldn't have really successfully lied about passing the polygraph because it could have been easily proven a lie. The statement that he did lie about was whether or not there was a question as to capability of the examiner. This was in the same sentence as his statement that "then they[LE] told me it was inconclusive". So, either the police told him it was inconclusive due to some question about capability of the examiner, or the police didn't say that to him at all...

Also, it's interesting that MR states there is some sort of "conflict" as to the actual results of his test. What sort of conflict could that be, and who is it that has a conflicting viewpoint? If it's MR himself that has a conflicting viewpoint with the LE, then I find that rather telling - especially given the LE statement just after the show. If someone other than LE and MR have conflicting viewpoints in regard to the polygraph I don't know how they could make a judgement because as MR said, he is unaware that the results of his test were given to anyone but himself...

 

[AnotherSetOfEyes]

To be honest I'm not sure what Dylan's shirt says. I actually found a Nike shirt that looks more like the Walmart photo but it had Beaverton Oregon on it so I disregarded it as a possibility.

There are so many licensed shirts out there along with unlicensed knockoffs that it's hard to say what that shirt says and where it came from. It may not even mean anything unless Dylan is found and with what clothes. MOO.

BBM - Nike headquarters are in Beaverton, Oregon, FWIW.

 

[Redhead72]

Then maybe someone can answer for me why Dr. Phil and JT felt it important to stress that this was the FIRST time both parents REFUSED?

Because they were trying to make the point that in all their years of experience, and in all their years working cases like this MR was the ONLY one to refuse to take a polygraph while insisting they were innocent in order to clear their name, whether they were truly innocent or not... In other words, even in cases where a parent was guilty they didn't refuse to take a polygraph when they were protesting their innocence... That was the big deal. They were showing him that his behavior was extremely suspect, and made it look a whole lot worse on him than it already did.

 

[nikb]

It's an older shirt....it has a square with the DC in the middle

FWIW....my son had a shirt just like it....if he still has it, I will take a picture tomorrow.

Oh, well.......the shirt maybe important, maybe not

Nite all

Yeah.. I think I just came to the same conclusion on the shirt. I want it to be important but I'm not sure if it is since it's been so long since he disappeared.

Just a quick note though, I am almost sure I know the shirt you're talking about. Bizarre coincidence but our neighbors when I was growing up owned a Skate shop and I think that's why this logo looked familiar - I can't believe I didn't connect it right away. Granted I haven't been Dylan's age in longer than I care to admit, but if that is in fact the DC logo on his shirt in the Walmart pic it was a fairly new cool/trendy thing when I was around his age. I'm wondering if the company reissued it as a retro thing or something.

 

[AnotherSetOfEyes]

To be fair, I think there is probably merit to the suggestion that MR and ER are not given the same benefit of the doubt. Not sure if that is true of LE, it is of me personally though.
The clothing is a good example. In the interview with MB she asked MR(paraphrasing) 'Do you think Dylan was wearing the same clothes he was wearing the night before at Walmart when he disappeared? MR answered "Um, I have every reason to believe that." I took that and still take that literally as a statement of having full knowledge of exactly what DR was wearing when he disappeared. ER was asked the same question and gave a reply that she too was confident that he probably was because DR didn't change clothes often. I took that as a statement based on her knowledge of her child. Based on instinct? Probably. Fair? No

 

[RANCH]

IF there is a body at the bottom of the lake near the dam divers are going to be no help. They could only dive to about 40 feet and IIRC the lake was just under 200 ft deep near the dam. It's going to take SONAR and ROV's to recover a body if it is stuck on something at or near the bottom. There is little point to bringing in divers and risking the dangers with what their limits are in that lake. Not unless a body was in shallower water or near the shore.
I believe LE called off the lake search due to the risks to the divers and knowing that if a body were in there it would probably eventually float...as bodies normally do. I think this was the reason for the helicopter fly overs after the lake search.
I think they figure if the family wants to pay a top notch team to come in with SONAR and ROV's then let them. That has got to be extremely expensive.

I'm not a dive expert but forty feet seems to be a bit conservative to me. Reading this article about diving in Lake Tahoe which is also a high altitude lake seems to show that greater depths are possible.

Mixed gas divers can safely descend to about 350 feet without suffering nitrogen narcosis, or "rapture of the depths," among other problems. Conventional scuba divers have to stop at about 100 feet.

Lake Tahoe is at 6,224 ft elevation and Vallecito Lake is around 8,000 ft elevation. They are both cold year round at depth. It's also interesting that the cold temperature and pressure in a lake like Lake Tahoe preserved a body for 17 years good enough for an autopsy that could determine the cause of death after all those years.

"His remains are in amazing physical condition," said Sheriff's Sgt. Jim Byers. "We'll be able to do a thorough autopsy. He may have had a heart attack or a stroke or maybe just ran out of air. Hopefully we'll determine what happened."

The surprising condition of the body is attributable to the 35-degree water and the increased pressure at the 265-foot depth, Byers said.

If human remains did cause the dog alerts and these remains are recovered, the conditions in the lake may have preserved the remains enough to give the coroner a cause of death and other evidence that could bring justice to this case. MOO.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/aug/09/local/la-me-missing-diver-20110809

 

[Redhead72]

Knowing the poor reliability of polygraphs I would be hesitant to take even one of them let alone multiple tests. MOO.

What is the reason for having to take multiple polygraphs at all. If the science is good then a single test should suffice in my opinion.

The reason for a second test was that MR was stating he was told he failed his first one from LE, but that he was insisting he was innocent. Then MR brought up that there was supposedly some "conflict" over the polygraph results, that there was some "question" of qualifications of the examiner, and as a result it was inconclusive.

The polygraph offered to him in relation to the DP show was to offer him a chance to take another one, to pass and clear his name, and have one of the top examiners in the country administer the test. It was offered because MR stated that the last one (which he obviously agreed to) was messed up.

IF LE did ask him to take a second polygraph that could be for one of two reasons, as I see it --
1) to give him an opportunity to sit down with a different polygraph expert he felt more comfortable in order to put the "conflict" to rest, and not have a failed/inconclusive test hanging like a shadow over MR or,

2) Perhaps they had some new questions to ask that they didn't ask in the first polygraph?

If you'd rather we (in general) take it that the polygraph results are definitive in some way then we would have to go with the results MR told him the LE said -- that he failed his test.

 

[RANCH]

BBM - Nike headquarters are in Beaverton, Oregon, FWIW.

Well, maybe a kid from Colorado would wear a Nike shirt with Beaverton Oregon on it now that you brought that fact up. Thanks.

 

[Redhead72]

Well, maybe a kid from Colorado would wear a Nike shirt with Beaverton Oregon on it now that you brought that fact up. Thanks.

Why are we talking about a NIKE shirt, anyway? That was one of the pictures taken for the flyers and for media that showed a clear view of his face. Has it ever been stated that the shirt he was wearing was a NIKE shirt on the day he disappeared? I'm just not following why people are looking for a NIKE shirt? (Maybe I missed something??? Serious question - what did I miss in regard to him having on a NIKE shirt?)

 

[Redhead72]

If human remains did cause the dog alerts and these remains are recovered, the conditions in the lake may have preserved the remains enough to give the coroner a cause of death and other evidence that could bring justice to this case. MOO.

Snipped for space -- Thanks for linking to the article. I think it's a definite possibility that even after 4 mos. of time a body in this particular lake could be in extremely good condition. As was mentioned - the cold water at depth where a body would have sunk would preserve the remains for a very long time, as the cold temps slow down bacterial growth a lot...

IF DR is found in the lake, I do hope and pray that there is still enough evidence to determine cause of death.

Thanks again for linking to the article. It's nice to have a real-life example to refer to after reading all of the medical texts!

 

[catswhiskers]

The reason for a second test was that MR was stating he was told he failed his first one from LE, but that he was insisting he was innocent. Then MR brought up that there was supposedly some "conflict" over the polygraph results, that there was some "question" of qualifications of the examiner, and as a result it was inconclusive.

The polygraph offered to him in relation to the DP show was to offer him a chance to take another one, to pass and clear his name, and have one of the top examiners in the country administer the test. It was offered because MR stated that the last one (which he obviously agreed to) was messed up.

IF LE did ask him to take a second polygraph that could be for one of two reasons, as I see it --
1) to give him an opportunity to sit down with a different polygraph expert he felt more comfortable in order to put the "conflict" to rest, and not have a failed/inconclusive test hanging like a shadow over MR or,

2) Perhaps they had some new questions to ask that they didn't ask in the first polygraph?

If you'd rather we (in general) take it that the polygraph results are definitive in some way then we would have to go with the results MR told him the LE said -- that he failed his test.

I'm thinking that taking and passing a tv show polygraph would not clear MR or anyone else for that matter. Not in the eyes of LE (I would hope) and in this case I seriously doubt it would influence many members of the public, <modsnip>.
:moo:

 

[RANCH]

The reason for a second test was that MR was stating he was told he failed his first one from LE, but that he was insisting he was innocent. Then MR brought up that there was supposedly some "conflict" over the polygraph results, that there was some "question" of qualifications of the examiner, and as a result it was inconclusive.

The polygraph offered to him in relation to the DP show was to offer him a chance to take another one, to pass and clear his name, and have one of the top examiners in the country administer the test. It was offered because MR stated that the last one (which he obviously agreed to) was messed up.

IF LE did ask him to take a second polygraph that could be for one of two reasons, as I see it --
1) to give him an opportunity to sit down with a different polygraph expert he felt more comfortable in order to put the "conflict" to rest, and not have a failed/inconclusive test hanging like a shadow over MR or,

2) Perhaps they had some new questions to ask that they didn't ask in the first polygraph?

If you'd rather we (in general) take it that the polygraph results are definitive in some way then we would have to go with the results MR told him the LE said -- that he failed his test.

First off, I don't believe that it was a good idea for Mark to go on the Dr Phil show at all let alone submit himself to a polygraph on national TV.

Secondly,I don't feel that a polygraph can "clear" anyone from a crime no matter how well the examiner is respected in that field.

Thirdly, LE got a shot at Mark more than once without him having legal representation. That's more than they usually get. And I haven't seen where LE has said that Mark is no longer cooperating with them or refusing to answer any of their questions.

MOO.

 

[jjenny]

Why are we talking about a NIKE shirt, anyway? That was one of the pictures taken for the flyers and for media that showed a clear view of his face. Has it ever been stated that the shirt he was wearing was a NIKE shirt on the day he disappeared? I'm just not following why people are looking for a NIKE shirt? (Maybe I missed something??? Serious question - what did I miss in regard to him having on a NIKE shirt?)

It was originally reported that he was wearing a Nike shirt, but later on it came out he was wearing a different shirt. So I have no clue as to why people would be looking for a NIKE shirt.

 

[jjenny]

I don't know if they know for sure what he was wearing when he disappeared.

I have seen both the DC and Nike mentioned.

I don't look at what kids are usually wearing....I'm looking for a missing boy that is arount 5 feet tall, 105 pounds, blond hair and blue eyes and answers to the name of Dylan

Originally they said it was a Nike shirt. Later on they changed it.

 

[Redhead72]

I have always been curious as to the sequence of these events.

Normally how one feels would of been covered prior to the actual questions itself, yet for some reason, I believe JT stated 20 minutes into the examination he asked a question guaranteed to disqualify him if he answered no.

This tells me that it was asked during the actual questions as MR was expecting the next question. Something is off with respect to this sequence as that should of been asked prior to the questions.

BBM

There is a standard procedure that an examiner takes when beginning a polygraph examination. There is a pre-test interview that must be completed.

It was during this pre-test interview in which the question was asked. Everything up to this point is usually a matter of fact so that the machine and analyst can establish a baseline. There is nothing, that I am aware of, that would make the time of 20 minutes into it odd at all. It has been stated here numerous times by those who have needed to take a polygraph for one reason or another that all of the pre-test interviews usually last around 15-20 minutes.

MR specifically stated that JT stating that he was disqualified from the test due to his answer was a shock to him, as he assumed there would be another question - just like he had been answering for the previous 20 minutes of the pre-test interview. However, that question and a positive answer itself is a pre-requisite to continue with the polygraph at all. With MR saying he didn't feel well, JT would be remiss to subject him to any more questions at all.

There are many bulletin boards and places one can go on the internet to learn all about polygraphs, and I would assume that would include finding out which questions would have to be answered in an affirmative during the pre-test interview in order for the polygraph itself to be valid at all.

 

[Salem]

Why are we talking about a NIKE shirt, anyway? That was one of the pictures taken for the flyers and for media that showed a clear view of his face. Has it ever been stated that the shirt he was wearing was a NIKE shirt on the day he disappeared? I'm just not following why people are looking for a NIKE shirt? (Maybe I missed something??? Serious question - what did I miss in regard to him having on a NIKE shirt?)

There is discrepancy in the missing descriptions for Dylan as to what he was wearing.

I always find this conversation interesting because at one of the first interviews (on video) the reporter said there were some articles of clothing on the couch. I always wondered if Dylan changed shirts.... and we just don't know that. But... LE might know that, kwim? It also kind of plays into the discussion of "scent items."

There are so many of these little discrepancies in this case. I think it is why we keep coming back to them.

Salem

 

[RANCH]

Why are we talking about a NIKE shirt, anyway? That was one of the pictures taken for the flyers and for media that showed a clear view of his face. Has it ever been stated that the shirt he was wearing was a NIKE shirt on the day he disappeared? I'm just not following why people are looking for a NIKE shirt? (Maybe I missed something??? Serious question - what did I miss in regard to him having on a NIKE shirt?)

The NCMEC poster says that Dylan was last seen wearing a "black Nike shirt."

http://www.missingkids.com/missingk...NCMC&seqNum=1&caseLang=en_US&searchLang=en_US

 

[Redhead72]

It was originally reported that he was wearing a Nike shirt, but later on it came out he was wearing a different shirt. So I have no clue as to why people would be looking for a NIKE shirt.

Thank you! I appreciate that a lot... I hope one of the people looking for the NIKE shirt can explain why they would be doing so.

 

[jjenny]

The NCMEC poster says that Dylan was last seen wearing a "black Nike shirt."

http://www.missingkids.com/missingk...NCMC&seqNum=1&caseLang=en_US&searchLang=en_US

Because they never changed it from what was reported originally.