CO - Gannon Stauch, 11, found deceased, Colorado Springs, El Paso County, 27 Jan 2020 *Arrest* #60
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heartandsoul
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HH also commented in her testimony that Al was "not the one/type" (I can't remember her exact wording) to get angry in the relationship between him and Letecia.
ETA - I think her being "scared that Al would kill her" - which is wording (not exact) she did use - could easily be translated to "Al is going to be really, really upset that I am responsible for the death of his beloved son and make this hard for me". Everything is dramatic with Letecia.
Day off today, back tomorrow.
LightandReason
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I think you've hit the proverbial nail on the head. What the Prosecution appears to be doing is walking the jury through every step of her fabrications and lies. If I recall correctly, someone early on (3 yrs ago now) - maybe MassGuy as he seems the most knowledgeable - said Michael Allen's method is to build a case step by step, then putting all the pieces together in a timeline for the jury.
If that's what he's doing here, then we can expect, once he's done, that he'll be presenting a timeline that shows how her fabrications and lies timed up perfectly with the public release of information. For example, "on this day, the public became aware of the bloody board found, and presto - her story changed to explain that." "On this day, information was released about he neighbor's video, and presto - her story changed to match that." Etc.
What appears now as a lot of craziness will be all brought together to show logic, reason, rational reactions - all of which add up to sanity. And then - the icing on the cake? The timing of that video she posted of Gannon jumping into the water - posted the day she dumped his body. That will show not just sanity but hateful spiteful mean nastiness, and - revenge.
Michael Allen is no dummy. He knows what he's doing.
Seattle1
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True, Colorado uses a two-prong test for NGRI including mens rea (the intention or knowledge of wrongdoing that constitutes part of a crime, as opposed to the action or conduct of the accused).But CO doesn't use the M'Naghten rule by itself. So sanity is not necessarily defined in CO by knowing the difference between right and wrong. A person can know right from wrong and still be found NGRI.
That's why I worry a little. I basically agree with you - that they hopefully chose a jury who can understand and apply CO law.
From FIndLaw (link below):
//
Proving Irresistible Impulse
In jurisdictions that use or incorporate the Irresistible Impulse Test as a criminal defense, defendants typically must present sufficient evidence to prove:
As you can see, proving that a defendant was unable to control his or her actions at the time of a crime can be quite challenging. Often, it may require a medical examination and expert witness testimony from medical professionals who specialize in mental health conditions. The evidence would have to prove the diagnosis of a condition as well as its impact on the defendant's behavior, perhaps due to certain environmental triggers.
- The existence of mental illness; and
- That the mental illness caused the inability to control one's actions or conform one's conduct to the law.
//
It's the use of the word "triggers" that concerns me some. 10 years ago, I hardly ever heard the word. Now, there's strong pressure on teachers to provide "trigger warnings" (and the list of them is rather long, possibly endless - most of us get around it by mentioning "there might be triggers"). But people use the word all the time, to the point that many people believe them, themselves, can be "triggered" and that their mental condition deteriorates suddenly when they are triggered.
//
The Irresistible Impulse Test was first adopted by the Alabama Supreme Court in the 1887 case of Parsons v. State. The Alabama court stated that even though the defendant could tell right from wrong, he was subject to "the duress of such mental disease [that] he had ... lost the power to choose between right and wrong" and that "his free agency was at the time destroyed," and thus, "the alleged crime was so connected with such mental disease, in the relation of cause and effect, as to have been the product of it solely."
In so finding, the court assigned responsibility for the crime to the mental illness despite the defendant's ability to distinguish right from wrong. And therefore found the defendant not guilty by reason of insanity.//
The number of times I read here on WS (daily) that LS is "insane" or "crazy" is troubling. At any rate, I do think she'll end up in the psych ward of the prison (or be transferred to a facility where they can properly deal with her).
I tend to be a worrier. I don't know CO case law well enough to understand whether CO also requires some version of M'Naghten.
I just googled "Letecia Stauch borderline diagnosis" and got no hits from any news agencies - they all led back to Websleuths (there were a couple of reddit hits as well). Inside Edition did report that LS claims to have DID.
According to what I'm reading on the Irresistible Impulse test, the matter has largely been decided by the testimony of expert witnesses. So here we are. I find Dr. Lewis to be unprofessional and one of those paid experts who is almost entirely removed from any research or clinical practice. In the end, this may come down to a battle between the defense expert and the prosecution experts - and I think you're right; the State will win out. But we're very close to the margins, as to me it's clear that LS has multiple cognitive issues and DSM symptoms.
The Irresistible Impulse Test - FindLaw
The Irresistible Impulse Test gained acceptance in various states as an appendage to the M'Naghten Rule, under which right versus wrong was still considered a vital part of any definition of insanity. Learn more about topics like these at FindLaw's section on Criminal Procedure.www.findlaw.com
I believe the defense mentioned both Borderline PD and DID at some point, although I'm not sure (no link, JMO). At any rate, DID is going to be fully discussed in the second half of this trial.
Judge Werner discussed the test during jury selection and the instructions that will be given to the jurors for deliberation.
Effective July 1, 1995, our General Assembly “modified the test for insanity to fold in the former affirmative defense for ‘impaired mental condition.’” Renfandt v. N.Y. Life Ins. Co., 2018 CO 49, ¶ 48, 419 P.3d 576, 585. Thus, what used to be the defense of “impaired mental condition” is now subsumed within the defense of insanity.
¶3 Insanity is defined through the following two-part test:
(a) A person who is so diseased or defective in mind at the time of the commission of the act as to be incapable of distinguishing right from wrong with respect to that act is not accountable; except that care should be taken not to confuse such mental disease or defect with moral obliquity, mental depravity, or passion growing out of anger, revenge, hatred, or other motives and kindred evil conditions, for, when the act is induced by any of these causes, the person is accountable to the law; or
(b) A person who suffered from a condition of mind caused by mental disease or defect that prevented the person from forming a culpable mental state that is an essential element of a crime charged, but care should be taken not to confuse such mental disease or defect with moral obliquity, mental depravity, or passion growing out of anger, revenge, hatred, or other motives and kindred evil conditions because, when the act is induced by any of these causes, the person is accountable to the law.
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I think HH having concerns about loyalty to her deceased father would be natural under those circumstances. That's why I thought talks about adoption immediately after AS & LS married seemed odd. (And the marriage lasted barely 5 years so if AS was begging LS for 5 years to allow adoption that had to start early.) I don't doubt AS spoke about wanting adoption in court (I had missed that) but can easily see why HH and LS might have been resistant. Or LS might have been resistant on HH's behalf. I don't find that odd at all. It's not as though HH's bio dad died when she was a baby. He died less than 4 months before AS & LS married. I can easily see HH might have had conflicting feelings about having a new official "daddy" just a few months after that loss.
JMO
LightandReason
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Again - you've hit the nail on the head. What is being demonstrated in all these calls is: anger, revenge, hatred... She was angry at Landon, she was angry at Al, she was angry at Gannon. She hated having to "babysit," she hated taking care of Landon's kids, she hated not being valued. She was clearly motivated by all those things that the jury is instructed NOT to confuse with insanity.
I suspect Allen will walk them through these distinctions with samples from call after call after call...
Seattle1
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I'm so happy former FBI Johnny Grusing will return on Friday! We learned so much from him on cases here including the behavior of defendants Mark Redwine and Barry Morphew and how their stories changed to fit the evidence.
Similar to these defendants, LS can't help herself. LS was almost giddy when she believed she had an edge-- similar to her confidence about the polygraph she was going to pass -- until her scheme failed and the fake polygraph exam she attempted to purchase did not come through. Losers are, well, losers. JMO
Truth Prevails
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Al was instrumental in placing her where she is today, though. It's hard to explain, I guess. I think she is sane and always was. I believe once her egotistical anger finished gorging she realized Al would never stop until he found who harmed his son. And she was right about that. She was afraid of Al taking her freedom away, not of Al would physically harming her.
Because she was sane and understood the consequences of her actions. IMO
Truth Prevails
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Respectfully snipped by me. I'm so impressed by him and how he is presenting Gannon's case.
youtube = IHtlVtHuEzc
Thought Disorder Symptoms, Diagnosis, and Treatment
Thought disorder is a disorganized way of thinking that leads to unusual speech and writing. People with thought disorder have trouble communicating with others and may have trouble recognizing that they have an issue.www.healthline.com
After yesterday’s soul crushing evidence and our collective angst listening to T’s voice, lies, thoughts etc. I started researching Disordered Thinking not even knowing it was a “thing”.
There is a condition that is actually known for “word salad.”
This is an interesting read.
I’m looking forward to the psychiatric evidence.
IckedMel Day 7, Wed April 12, 2023, Letecia Stauch speaking to Det. Bethel 4:19 hours interview at EPCSO
2:49.45
"... My biggest concern was the upholstry for the couch. ..."
2:54 20
"...and I realized that Gannon actually he had like marks like on his arm and they were actually like peeling at that point
2:54.27
and I didn't, I didn't, I swear I did NOT realize that they had, I don't know if like, they start like, cuz burns are sitting there, and they started peeling like overnight or whatever. ..."
2:54.44
2:55.20
"...So then I was freaked out cuz I didn't know that his arms were like that. So I'm like crying. And this is where I have to start telling you, like you know, like very ...(pause)... I was scared. My thought process was ...(pause)... Albert is going to kill me like because I made a mistake as a parent (crying). He really got a little more burned than he should have. I was freaking out. And Gannon's like "It's okay,". And there's blood on his arm and as it was peeling. (crying ends) I didn't call the hospital and just ask. I don't know enough about burns. I I, should have called the hospital. I made a mistake. I swear to you all I didn't know they were that bad. I didn't know. I feel horrible. Here I am, I know it's not about me. But as a person, I feel horrible that I didn't call Albert to say they're like this. ..."
2:56.25
END
It's just my opinion JMO, but this is NOT the word salad associated with mental defect. Wikipedia has an example under clanging speech. LS is just a liar searching for what to say to keep her obfuscating statement going. We know this is all lies from her, attempts to evade.
Megnut
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Fatal Attraction. The details are different but the story isn't a new one.
Obsession. She was obsessed with an image. She didn't have the assets to achieve the image but she was desperate for the appearance of one. The better wife, the better mother.
I think she couldn't break Gannon of his sincere love of and genuine attachment to his mom so.... so she broke him. Evil. Not sure if it would've been acceptable to her to return Gannon to his mom but she may have wanted to keep L. She could manipulate L. L made her look like a good mom.
I think T thought eliminating G would solidify her marriage.. Obsession, delusion but not insanity.
She wasn't even in Colorado any longer when she was trying to force a pledge of allegiance from Al. Probably wanted her public apology on Instagram. I imagine she had it all scripted out for him too. Complete with the yada, yadas. My wife is innocent.... she's a great mom... the other one isn't... yada, yada.... there was lovin' on the cruise..... she's hot... she's fit....she prepares to work out almost every day....yada, yada... I stand by her because because....
I find her entitled without substance. A chameleon with no identity of her own, besides what she steals and fakes.
We're seeing her now for what she is.
Vulture.
JMO
Chelly
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@10ofRods Many thanks for this well-thought-out opinion and explanation. It is a "keeper" for me. Agree "we are very close to the margins". While I am not a fan of paid-expert-witnesses, much will depend on upcoming mental health testimony.But CO doesn't use the M'Naghten rule by itself. So sanity is not necessarily defined in CO by knowing the difference between right and wrong. A person can know right from wrong and still be found NGRI.
That's why I worry a little. I basically agree with you - that they hopefully chose a jury who can understand and apply CO law.
From FIndLaw (link below):
//
Proving Irresistible Impulse
In jurisdictions that use or incorporate the Irresistible Impulse Test as a criminal defense, defendants typically must present sufficient evidence to prove:
As you can see, proving that a defendant was unable to control his or her actions at the time of a crime can be quite challenging. Often, it may require a medical examination and expert witness testimony from medical professionals who specialize in mental health conditions. The evidence would have to prove the diagnosis of a condition as well as its impact on the defendant's behavior, perhaps due to certain environmental triggers.
- The existence of mental illness; and
- That the mental illness caused the inability to control one's actions or conform one's conduct to the law.
//
It's the use of the word "triggers" that concerns me some. 10 years ago, I hardly ever heard the word. Now, there's strong pressure on teachers to provide "trigger warnings" (and the list of them is rather long, possibly endless - most of us get around it by mentioning "there might be triggers"). But people use the word all the time, to the point that many people believe them, themselves, can be "triggered" and that their mental condition deteriorates suddenly when they are triggered.
//
The Irresistible Impulse Test was first adopted by the Alabama Supreme Court in the 1887 case of Parsons v. State. The Alabama court stated that even though the defendant could tell right from wrong, he was subject to "the duress of such mental disease [that] he had ... lost the power to choose between right and wrong" and that "his free agency was at the time destroyed," and thus, "the alleged crime was so connected with such mental disease, in the relation of cause and effect, as to have been the product of it solely."
In so finding, the court assigned responsibility for the crime to the mental illness despite the defendant's ability to distinguish right from wrong. And therefore found the defendant not guilty by reason of insanity.//
The number of times I read here on WS (daily) that LS is "insane" or "crazy" is troubling. At any rate, I do think she'll end up in the psych ward of the prison (or be transferred to a facility where they can properly deal with her).
I tend to be a worrier. I don't know CO case law well enough to understand whether CO also requires some version of M'Naghten.
I just googled "Letecia Stauch borderline diagnosis" and got no hits from any news agencies - they all led back to Websleuths (there were a couple of reddit hits as well). Inside Edition did report that LS claims to have DID.
According to what I'm reading on the Irresistible Impulse test, the matter has largely been decided by the testimony of expert witnesses. So here we are. I find Dr. Lewis to be unprofessional and one of those paid experts who is almost entirely removed from any research or clinical practice. In the end, this may come down to a battle between the defense expert and the prosecution experts - and I think you're right; the State will win out. But we're very close to the margins, as to me it's clear that LS has multiple cognitive issues and DSM symptoms.
The Irresistible Impulse Test - FindLaw
The Irresistible Impulse Test gained acceptance in various states as an appendage to the M'Naghten Rule, under which right versus wrong was still considered a vital part of any definition of insanity. Learn more about topics like these at FindLaw's section on Criminal Procedure.
I believe the defense mentioned both Borderline PD and DID at some point, although I'm not sure (no link, JMO). At any rate, DID is going to be fully discussed in the second half of this trial.
moo
Seattle1
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I don't think there's any evidence AS wanted to immediately adopt HH. I'm not sure where/why OP inferred this.
IMO, LS's reluctance about adoption was most likely financial since her minor daughter would be receiving social security death benefits from her deceased father (as opposed to child support).
By all accounts, it appears AS treated HH as his daughter and supported her -- HH's Jetta vehicle was financed by AS. MOO
10ofRods
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I hope no one (esp. @Seattle1) thinks I am arguing the issue - I'm just concerned.
That's why I posted about "triggers." I think times have changed (in regard to how ordinary lay people view mental illness). A huge percentage of Americans report mental health symptoms right now. 11 years is basically one generation away (Holmes killed in 2012, I believe). 90% of Americans believe there's a "mental health crisis." This particular trial will either reaffirm common sense or give Coloradans a glimpse of where they might need to change some laws.
I think that if LS is found guilty, she'll still end up at San Carlos (but hopefully with a life sentence instead of an indeterminate one). I think this will be the main argument at closing. I think it should be the main argument.
Prosecution should not have such a hard time convincing the jury that the main difference between the two verdicts is that she needs a life sentence without parole, as clearly she does. For whatever reason, trauma or no trauma, she does not behave as a person, as a human. She is indeed feral and apparently cannot control it or even observe it in herself.
DID is associated with trauma experienced as an adult, as well as childhood trauma, which is what Dr Lewis will testify to. There are several little details already presented in the evidence that the Defense can use to try and paint LS as a DID sufferer. The whole thing is complex. I'm sure we'll be posting a lot about DID (and perhaps another Dx) in a couple of weeks.
And for those who read here yesterday that there's only one witness on the defense list, I believe that to be untrue. There are 12. I have my seatbelt buckled. The Defense has got to prove their claim that LS was subjected to "trauma" (perhaps repeatedly). It could get really ugly.
IMO.
I suspect that within Letecia's social world, the Defense might be able to find people to testify about these matters. This trial is far from over and we are all going to have nerves of steel if we get through it all. The defense is going to put LS's family members on the stand to testify to the abuse by her mother's boyfriends ( per the Denver Post : Letecia Stauch suffered mental break during killing of 11-year-old Gannon, defense says as murder trial opens )
They may discuss abuse that was later in life, as well. And there are two mental health experts on their witness list (the psychiatrist, Dr. Lewis, but also a clinical psychologist - but one from Denver, unlikely that person ever treated LS prior to Gannon's murder).
IMO
That's why I posted about "triggers." I think times have changed (in regard to how ordinary lay people view mental illness). A huge percentage of Americans report mental health symptoms right now. 11 years is basically one generation away (Holmes killed in 2012, I believe). 90% of Americans believe there's a "mental health crisis." This particular trial will either reaffirm common sense or give Coloradans a glimpse of where they might need to change some laws.
I think that if LS is found guilty, she'll still end up at San Carlos (but hopefully with a life sentence instead of an indeterminate one). I think this will be the main argument at closing. I think it should be the main argument.
Prosecution should not have such a hard time convincing the jury that the main difference between the two verdicts is that she needs a life sentence without parole, as clearly she does. For whatever reason, trauma or no trauma, she does not behave as a person, as a human. She is indeed feral and apparently cannot control it or even observe it in herself.
DID is associated with trauma experienced as an adult, as well as childhood trauma, which is what Dr Lewis will testify to. There are several little details already presented in the evidence that the Defense can use to try and paint LS as a DID sufferer. The whole thing is complex. I'm sure we'll be posting a lot about DID (and perhaps another Dx) in a couple of weeks.
And for those who read here yesterday that there's only one witness on the defense list, I believe that to be untrue. There are 12. I have my seatbelt buckled. The Defense has got to prove their claim that LS was subjected to "trauma" (perhaps repeatedly). It could get really ugly.
IMO.
I suspect that within Letecia's social world, the Defense might be able to find people to testify about these matters. This trial is far from over and we are all going to have nerves of steel if we get through it all. The defense is going to put LS's family members on the stand to testify to the abuse by her mother's boyfriends ( per the Denver Post : Letecia Stauch suffered mental break during killing of 11-year-old Gannon, defense says as murder trial opens )
They may discuss abuse that was later in life, as well. And there are two mental health experts on their witness list (the psychiatrist, Dr. Lewis, but also a clinical psychologist - but one from Denver, unlikely that person ever treated LS prior to Gannon's murder).
IMO
Chelly
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I totally missed that HH's bio dad died less than 4 months before AS & LS married. That's a lot to process.
Since HH was already eligible for SS because her father died, being adopted wouldn't change anything.
Survivor Benefits and Your Adopted Children — ADOPTION ATTORNEY LISA GOLDBERG - Building NY Families
Social Security provides support to families of workers who pass away. Widows, widowers, children, and other dependents may be entitled to survivor benefits. When a widow or widower remarries, the question is raised, “Will my children lose their survivor benefits if my new spouse adopts them?” The a
www.buildingnyfamilies.com
I had missed it but apparently AS said he had been begging for 5 years in a phone call. That meant the requests had to startimmediately after the marriage. Or just a few months after HH's bio dad's death.
I haven't looked back at recordings but this was reported here:
"I BEGGED YOU TO LET ME ADOPT THAT CHILD FOR FIVE YEARS!" AS on HH.
Post in thread 'CO - Gannon Stauch, 11, found deceased, Colorado Springs, El Paso County, 27 Jan 2020 *Arrest* #60'
CO - Gannon Stauch, 11, found deceased, Colorado Springs, El Paso County, 27 Jan 2020 *Arrest* #60
JMO
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Is there court today?
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