CO CO - Garfield Co, WhtMale 35-65, 789UMCO, skeletal in tent, Sep'04

[websurfer]

It sure could be the same guy.Time had passed and with only bones and material postions on the area he was found, no body identifa

No, this John Doe is not in NamUs.
Cation.this looks like a match.


Aside from the really long timeline, he does look like a plausible possible match. You have the circumstances, and the Colorado connection. He's a little short, but not that far off.

 

[LucyOso]

Do we have photos of the notebook pages?

 

[webrocket]

If I am repeating something, please forgive me. I did not review the entire thread.

The only people I've ever heard be named Libby were Jewish and it was an old school name. According to this website, Lib or Libby, is most commonly used as a nickname for Elizabeth.

http://www.babynamegenie.com/polls/38769/results

Elizabeth Dole uses Liddy as a nickname.

 

[justice57]

David Bird Thomson just started a web page "Finding Dave". Here is the link: http://www.findingdave.com/. He did serve in Vietnam and was into mountain man living. I couldn't find a forum for David Bird Thomson.

 

[Lizbetbathory]

bump!

 

[carbuff]

I agree that Libby is an old-school nickname, but none of the Libby's I knew growing up were Jewish. Solidly midwestern, mostly.

 

[grateful1]

Sorry if I missed it here, but is there a rule out list for this unidentified?

 

[jjohnston0827]

Not much on this guy but it says his wallet was found on a hiking trail. Maybe he disappeared on purpose and ended up in Colorado?

Joshua Best

 

[baraby1969]

Hello guys/gals. I am fairly new to this site and I apologize in advance if I say something that has already been said/discussed, as I have not read this entire thread yet. After quickly reading the Doe Case on this guy it SCREAMS to me that this guy is former military and I believe a Former Marine. Being that I am retired Army and a former Marine, the following thoughts came to mind. First of all, I own several pairs of old government issued glasses that look just like the ones pictured on the Doe Network. When I was in the Marine Corps and for awhile afterward I ALWAYS had a set or two of foam ear plugs in my shower/toilet bag back, I don't know of anyone else who would have them in their shower kit and for what reason. Additionally Marines carry a rolled sleeping mat/cushion called an ISOMAT at the top of their packs. Most infantry Marines used them and in the 18 years I served in the Army, I never saw an Army Soldier use one - ever, it was a Marine thing. For the entire four years I was in the Corps I always carried a small green pocket sized notebook (they were called Memorandum pads) but the kind I used did not have a spiral binding. Also, the fact that he had all that money and large quantity of cigarettes leads me to believe he may have been in hiding for awhile or something and he planned to be up there a long time. I would assume he had been there for a while already and probably would have smoked a carton or two of cigarettes already, so nobody in their right mind would bring 4 cartons of cigarettes ANYWHERE with them unless they knew they were going to be there for a long, long time, so I would rule out suicide, unless he was terminally ill and he just went there to die. What was his food source? I'm pretty sure that this guy owned a motorcycle looking at the hole in one of his boots which could have been caused by shifting of gears with his toe. I think it is very possible that he used a dirt bike or motorcycle to get close to his location (I wonder if any abandoned motorcycles/dirt bikes were found in the area at that time). Although it looks like he had a lot of stuff with him, if packed properly, it really isn't that much. I think all this gear could have been carried in saddle bags or in a pack tied to a sissy bar. I suppose the hole in his boot could have also have been the result of snow shoes/ski clamps, etc, but then it seems it would be on both boots if that was the case. Having that kind of money on him and knowing that he was going to be spending an extended period of time in those mountains make me think that hole happened on the way there. I think he would have bought a new pair of boots had it been there when he left/prepared for his trip. I see that he had two canteens and two canteen cups. When I retired, I had several extra canteens and canteen cups in my possession. I wonder what color the duct tape was that they found? Marines sometimes carry green duct tape when deploying or going to the field. The fact that he smoked non-filter camel cigarettes leads me to believe he was on the older side of the projected age range, maybe 60. I am a smoker and the only people I know who smoke non-filtered cigarettes are older people like my dad, like older than 55/60. Also, I wonder what tax stamp was on the remaining packs of cigarettes. I think each state has their own stamp, including military bases. Although, I don't think packs inside cartons are stamped, but I could be wrong. Additionally I am far from wealthy, but I have an entire mouth full of gold fillings thanks to the Marine Corps. Every time I get my teeth cleaned now the dentist always comments on how much gold I have in my mouth. BTW, I got most of my gold fillings/crowns done while I was stationed in Hawaii, not sure if that matters. With the amount of dental work he had, that means he went to the dentist very often. Marines are required to go to the dentist twice a year and are Non deployable if they have any dental issues. I think that everything that was found with him would be an easy load for a former Marine to carry. I think he was alone because it seems to me there would have been two spoons if not. Now being a smoker of non filter camels and being at that age and altitude, it must have been VERY slow going. The neck/back degeneration is probably a common thing for a Marine who has been in for 20 or more years humping around a 75-100 lb pack. Even with this degeneration and pain I think this would have been an easy load for a Marine to carry, and would be something that he was very used to doing. I'll go back now and read the rest of this thread and throw more thoughts your way, but that's what comes to my mind initially when I read this. I would pursue looking into a military back ground for sure. I think this case is very solvable.

Things I am wondering:
What was his food source? Did he have any weapons or fishing gear? It doesn't seem logical that he would have taken all that stuff and not plenty of food, or a rifle to get food. Any weapons found/turned in from the area over the years? What did the stamp/codes on the Tylenol bottle reveal? What does it say/Logo on his poncho? Which direction was he coming from on the maps? Why would his trousers and long underwear rot away and not everything else? Farfetched thought but is it possible he accidently set himself on fire while filling and lighting his butane stove and burned himself? I'm just trying to understand why his trousers and long underwear rotted away (Bugs?).

Also he spelled memorial wrong (speaks of his education - maybe) just a thought.


William Baraby

 

[baraby1969]

Hello guys/gals. I am fairly new to this site and I apologize in advance if I say something that has already been said/discussed, as I have not read this entire thread yet. After quickly reading the Doe Case on this guy it SCREAMS to me that this guy is former military and I believe a Former Marine. Being that I am retired Army and a former Marine, the following thoughts came to mind. First of all, I own several pairs of old government issued glasses that look just like the ones pictured on the Doe Network. When I was in the Marine Corps and for awhile afterward I ALWAYS had a set or two of foam ear plugs in my shower/toilet bag back, I don't know of anyone else who would have them in their shower kit and for what reason. Additionally Marines carry a rolled sleeping mat/cushion called an ISOMAT at the top of their packs. Most infantry Marines used them and in the 18 years I served in the Army, I never saw an Army Soldier use one - ever, it was a Marine thing. For the entire four years I was in the Corps I always carried a small green pocket sized notebook (they were called Memorandum pads) but the kind I used did not have a spiral binding. Also, the fact that he had all that money and large quantity of cigarettes leads me to believe he may have been in hiding for awhile or something and he planned to be up there a long time. I would assume he had been there for a while already and probably would have smoked a carton or two of cigarettes already, so nobody in their right mind would bring 4 cartons of cigarettes ANYWHERE with them unless they knew they were going to be there for a long, long time, so I would rule out suicide, unless he was terminally ill and he just went there to die. What was his food source? I'm pretty sure that this guy owned a motorcycle looking at the hole in one of his boots which could have been caused by shifting of gears with his toe. I think it is very possible that he used a dirt bike or motorcycle to get close to his location (I wonder if any abandoned motorcycles/dirt bikes were found in the area at that time). Although it looks like he had a lot of stuff with him, if packed properly, it really isn't that much. I think all this gear could have been carried in saddle bags or in a pack tied to a sissy bar. I suppose the hole in his boot could have also have been the result of snow shoes/ski clamps, etc, but then it seems it would be on both boots if that was the case. Having that kind of money on him and knowing that he was going to be spending an extended period of time in those mountains make me think that hole happened on the way there. I think he would have bought a new pair of boots had it been there when he left/prepared for his trip. I see that he had two canteens and two canteen cups. When I retired, I had several extra canteens and canteen cups in my possession. I wonder what color the duct tape was that they found? Marines sometimes carry green duct tape when deploying or going to the field. The fact that he smoked non-filter camel cigarettes leads me to believe he was on the older side of the projected age range, maybe 60. I am a smoker and the only people I know who smoke non-filtered cigarettes are older people like my dad, like older than 55/60. Also, I wonder what tax stamp was on the remaining packs of cigarettes. I think each state has their own stamp, including military bases. Although, I don't think packs inside cartons are stamped, but I could be wrong. Additionally I am far from wealthy, but I have an entire mouth full of gold fillings thanks to the Marine Corps. Every time I get my teeth cleaned now the dentist always comments on how much gold I have in my mouth. BTW, I got most of my gold fillings/crowns done while I was stationed in Hawaii, not sure if that matters. With the amount of dental work he had, that means he went to the dentist very often. Marines are required to go to the dentist twice a year and are Non deployable if they have any dental issues. I think that everything that was found with him would be an easy load for a former Marine to carry. I think he was alone because it seems to me there would have been two spoons if not. Now being a smoker of non filter camels and being at that age and altitude, it must have been VERY slow going. The neck/back degeneration is probably a common thing for a Marine who has been in for 20 or more years humping around a 75-100 lb pack. Even with this degeneration and pain I think this would have been an easy load for a Marine to carry, and would be something that he was very used to doing. I'll go back now and read the rest of this thread and throw more thoughts your way, but that's what comes to my mind initially when I read this. I would pursue looking into a military back ground for sure. I think this case is very solvable.

Things I am wondering:
What was his food source? Did he have any weapons or fishing gear? It doesn't seem logical that he would have taken all that stuff and not plenty of food, or a rifle to get food. Any weapons found/turned in from the area over the years? What did the stamp/codes on the Tylenol bottle reveal? What does it say/Logo on his poncho? Which direction was he coming from on the maps? Why would his trousers and long underwear rot away and not everything else? Farfetched thought but is it possible he accidently set himself on fire while filling and lighting his butane stove and burned himself? I'm just trying to understand why his trousers and long underwear rotted away (Bugs?).

Also he spelled memorial wrong (speaks of his education - maybe) just a thought.


William Baraby

 

[baraby1969]

If there were a carton (20 packs) of cigs...he probably had already smoked a few packs along the way. For a person to smoke two packs a day is pretty normal if they are a heavy smoker, which I would think this man was. People who are addicted to ciggies ALWAYS make sure they have enough and enough lighters, too. (Nothing worse than having smokes and nothing to light them with!) This would only have been enough for ten more days.

20 Packs of Cigs is two Cartons. Like you I assume he had been there for awhile and probably smoked 1 or 2 cartons already. Who in their right mind would bring 4 cartons of cigs anywhere unless they knew they were going to be there awhile.

 

[RickshawFan]

I haven't read the rest of the thread, but now I'm curious....

That's an interesting thought about how the unknown may have caught himself on fire. Alternatively, his bottoms might have been better than his tops as nesting material for marmots and other critters.

The bell is almost certainly a bear bell. You wear them on your pack to signal to animals (e.g. bears) that you're around and to make themselves scarce (which they generally do). However, if Unknown was concerned about bears and a marine, he surely would have had a weapon?

My first thought on reading the initial entry in the green notebook was that he had become snowbound: winter set in earlier than he anticipated, and he got progressively weaker, thus the increasing illegibility in his writing. Sow could have preserved the body through the winter.

I don't believe the lack of food at his campsite would present a problem as far as analyzing his situation: animals would have carted it away a long time before, and backpackers don't generally carry stuff in cans, so animals would have had easy access. Alternatively, site evaluators might have looked around to see if there was a bag hanging between trees a bit away from the campsite. This would have been a food bag, and may have contained other necessities, such as toothpaste, and maybe the ID?

Now, I'll read the thread....

 

[RickshawFan]

justthinkin, the more I mull over this guy, the more I'm inclined to agree. I do think, from reading the part of his note where he writes "Third choice take them up in a glider (I promise not to get sick on you," that he was giving instructions on what should be done with his ashes once he was found and cremated.

What I don't understand is why he has pairs of a few things, like the maps, canteens, drinking cups if there weren't originally someone else with him. And if there were someone else with him, presumably when they hiked out (possibly to get help?) they would have alerted the rangers, or (one hopes) filed a missing persons report when the UID never returned. In which cases he should have been identified.

Cymro, I don't know if you are planning to make contact, but I am interested to hear about any outcome from talking with the person who posted on YouTube.

I'm just now getting to this thread, so there may be some answers already, but let me guess at some of this. It is not at all unusual to carry three water bottles in the backcountry. You go down to the stream. You fill two (these are dirty water); you use your pump (I own that pump) to pump from the dirty water into the clean water bottle. You drink from the clean water bottle. Having two dirty water bottles means you have quite a supply before you go down to the water source again.

Alternatively, one of the bottles could have been for whiskey. What is more interesting is that they aren't Nalgenes (which are easier to scoop water into).

Two drinking cups? One for food, so you can eat while drinking coffee/alcohol. May depend on the shape. Sierra cups lend themselves to this purpose. Metal cups can also be used to cook food in and boil water, but he might not have liked to drink out of a metal cup since they burn your lips. Do we know if one of the cups was not metal?

Degeneration could be a minor problem. People of a certain age often have degeneration in their backs. Cartilage wears out. They go backpacking. 12 miles from the trailhead is really not that far. If you were going long distance at 12 miles a day with a heavy pack, then "degeneration" might bother you. I think it's a mistake to focus on "degeneration" in this context and imagine it to be disabling.

If there were photographs of the tent and backpack, it might be possible to determine what year they were produced. This would add to date reliability. Eureka and Jansport are well-known American backpacking companies, still in business. Just a glance, and I might even know.

Pepper spray and bell, definitely for bears.

 

[RickshawFan]

Good points, justhinkin. I hadn't noticed that the sleeping bag cover was a different brand than the bag itself. I had presumed that the brown Slumberjack sleeping bag was this one: http://www.slumberjack.com/Category.aspx?CategoryID=14 It would fall in the same category as the Timberland boots and Jansport backpack -- basic stuff, adequate but not what I would
take on a backcountry hike. DMH looks like they might be a cut above -- more comparable to Columbia or LLBean in the US? I can't find any indication they export to the US.

Back in the day, the better companies for packs were Kelty and Jansport. They were standouts for external frame packs: what everyone wanted. However, if external frame, UID might have had the pack for some time. LLBean would have been a substantial cut below either of those companies. I don't believe Columbia was in that business then: they made apparel, and aren't really in the gear business now either. They got into the boot business by buying Montrail, but this was only maybe 6 years ago. And now they own the Mountain Hardwear label, but that's way above Columbia in the gear pecking order.

"Sleeping bag cover" is a stuff sack? Could've been a gift. People love to give backpackers stuff sacks, 'cos they're a no brainer gift. He might have just grabbed it because it was the right size. Or, he might have used it for clothes and not the sleeping bag.

 

[RickshawFan]

Possessions:
Located was fragments of sleeping cushion,
fragments of blue backpack,
a yellow-green plastic poncho,
parts of a brown sleeping bag,
blue hairbrush,
two plastic zipper bags,
Six $100 bills, one $10 bill,
one $5 bill,
five $1 bills
, green Eureka dome tent,
blue-and-black Jansport backpack,
green camping pillow,
black belt with clinging long underwear fragments,
Slumberjack sleeping bag,
empty Tylenol bottle,
eight multicolored butane lighters,
one magnifying glass, one compass,
fingernail clippers,
bell,
spoon,
pepper spray,
20 packages of Camel unfiltered cigarettes,
Butane stove with two fuel cans,
sweetwater water-filtration kit,
pocket-sized Battleship game,
round red-and-blue canteen,
two green plastic military-style canteens,
pair of sunglasses,
pair of reading glasses,
silver Sharper Image binoculars,
"4 in 1" Radio Shack game,
two drinking cups,
aluminum cooking pot,
pair of tweezers,
package of foam earplugs,
package of razor blades,
tent repair kit,
pair of blue wool socks with duct tape around the toes,
roll of duct tape,
two National Geographic trail maps of the Flat Tops.
Other: A pocket-sized, spiral notebook

http://doenetwork.org/cases/789umco.html

All these items but no wallet or identification. There is a reason he didn't have those.

Now that I see this list, I can add to some of my comments above.

1. This is not car camping equipment (unless the tent was largish). The Slumberjack might have been a mummy bag.

2. This is likely a small backpacking stove. Two canisters of fuel is not very much.

3. There is no way from the photo of the pack to figure out exactly how large it is. However, it looks to be a pack for multiple overnights.

4. This is not bottom-of-the-line equipment (Walmart would be in this category). It is mid-range.

5. A sleeping bag sack with a different brand name on it may have tied onto his pack better and/or the Slumberjack might not have come with a stuff sack....... lots of possibilities.

6. This person is pitifully lacking apparel for "weather". A plastic poncho couldn't even begin to take care of a rainstorm (it blows around and you get the water all over you, and it snags in branches). A person would generally have raingear tops and bottoms unless he was unfamiliar with those mountains.

7. I don't see any "insulation" listed, like a fleece or jacket. It could have been eaten by mice..... Lack of insulation may have been the reason this guy was in his sleeping bag: to keep warm. Was there even any other clothing besides what he had on?

8. Foam earplugs are often used in backcountry shelters/hostels because people snore.

9. This might have been a homeless guy and not from anywhere in particular. You'd be amazed at the number of homeless guys who hang out in the woods even in the dead of winter in New England. They head into town to the homeless shelters for shower/food/used stuff. Sometimes, they have a piece or two of good equipment: some gear stores sell returned items cheaply. The Sweetwater filter here is as good as anything you could get back then in the filter category, though, and replacement filters aren't cheap. In fact, it is noteworthy that he was smart enough to worry about water quality.

10. The mice got his socks and he had to patch them with duct tape.

11. There doesn't seem to be any booze, except maybe that's what one of the flasks is for?

12. You don't take a stake hammering tool backpacking. You use a rock.

13. I'll bet he hung his food/toothpaste etc. in a tree.

14. No headlamp/flashlight/candle lantern.

15. He might not have had Tylenol in the Tylenol container.

 

[Tulessa]

If I am repeating something, please forgive me. I did not review the entire thread.

The only people I've ever heard be named Libby were Jewish and it was an old school name. According to this website, Lib or Libby, is most commonly used as a nickname for Elizabeth.

http://www.babynamegenie.com/polls/38769/results

Elizabeth Dole uses Liddy as a nickname.

Web, My niece is named Olivia. They call her Lib or Libby for short.

 

[baraby1969]

After serving 22 years in the military, I write in all CAPS. I have to mentally force myself not to. I'm going to see if i can dig up a pair of my old glasses and see how they match up to the ones found at the camp site. It seems like there are many items missing from his site that he truly should have like a knife or a gun or a small hatchet or at least and extra pair of socks and a flashlight. I no longer carry a wallet because it aggravates my back problems, but I do carry ID around my neck in a badge holder. Perhaps someone else had came across this site previously thinking it was just abandoned and took some of items that they saw laying around. I wonder if the items in his pack were strewn around as if searched or if everything was packed as it should be. I wonder where they found the money? I initially thought the drinking cups were canteen cups (metal cups that the canteen would slide into), but they are not. I'm sure they did a thorough job searching the area, but I to wonder if there is something else (another bag) still up there. I think the duct tape around his socks was to help keep him warm/dry as the hole in his boot clearly goes completely threw all layers.

 

[ForeverAmber806]

I personally think that our John Doe decided to head out on an hike and spend several days camping in the area. Nothing suspicious or a suicide mission...just getting away. I used to live in Colorado and we did this very often. Something happened to cause him to become incapacitated on his camping trip. Expecting that he wouldn't make it out alive he pinned a note not to a person named "Lib" but to his "Liberator". His letter shows a little bit of witty humor and I can totally see him sarcastically (maybe that's not the right word...more like "playful" maybe???) referring to the person that may find him as his liberator. He very well could be equating his situation and the very real possibility of him dying out there in a situation he had no control of as his "prison". I'm sure this felt very imprisoning.

lib·er·a·tor -noun:
a person who liberates a person or place from imprisonment or oppression.

Just my two cents!

 

[ForeverAmber806]

Also another quick thought...my ex-husband was in the Army and stationed at Fort Carson. It was VERY common (like every weekend) for him to head out on his own for some hiking or an overnight camping trip for hunting. We did this together, he did it by himself, army buddies would go sometimes...it's a VERY popular thing to do for the out doorsy type soldiers. On one of his weekend trips he was stalked by a mountain lion for a bit. Just adding that in that it's not unusual activity at all!

 

[ForeverAmber806]

I'm so sorry for the post after post...now my thoughts are obsessing on this case. Mentioning earlier that something could have "incapacitated" him made me start thinking about what exactly could have done that. I'm not a medical expert by any means but could something like a snake/spider bite or a twisted ankle show up on an autopsy if the body is badly decomposed? I realize this information doesn't really help find out the identity of this person but it just doesn't feel like a suicide or terminal illness situation. Ok, I'll stop posting for now.