CO - James Holmes Trial - *Closing Arguments* *Verdict Watch*

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Hi! I missed that last one!
To me, it sounds like the defense got to put they're 'theory' into the jury instructions!?
Seems like reading the instructions, came across Instruction 21 or 22 & it told the defendant's theory that he was insane. Guess I would question it too! They said 'it seems informative & not an instruction"
Why did they get to put their theory of insanity into an instruction?
Confusing me. They were supposed to make their argument in trial.
 
Since he still believes in the human capitol self worth by how many kills to this day does that mean when he has the opportunity will he try to kill guards, staff, other inmates? People with mental disorders like schizophrenia go on and off meds all the time so if he does decide to stop taking it or cheeks them he is still extremely dangerous!!

and don't they constantly need to be monitored for correct dosage of medication?
 
well I'm checking out for a bit----have vegies to water....:fence:
 
IMO
This particular case is actually very easy for me to decide he was not insane. It could have been much harder if the defendent was more closer to being not in control of his actions and mind.

But for JH, he has so obviously shown he had control and the "where-with-all" to know what he was doing was wrong and its not like his compulsion was so overwhelming that he could not have stopped himself.

He had so many opportunities to stop and he knew it and chose not to.

Here are some key things to me that shows JH had plenty of normal capacity to show he was not insane.

1-One key thing was something new I learned just yesterday in the trial. He made that last phone call at his car before he went back in the theatre.

It showed he knew darn well that what he was fixing to do was totally wrong and yet he went in anyway.

I think it showed that some of his motive was REVENGE.
Revenge on everyone for how his life turned out.

2-JH was not like the Son of Sam who claimed to have voices in his head telling him to kill. The son of sam killer said he would hear the voices instructing him to kill. That is a pretty good example of someone who could claim it was hard to stop.

But not with JH. He had ample opportunities to not do what he did. He proved he knew right from wrong when he asked his friend if they would visit him in prison.
So that is telling me that JH knew what he was going to do would be wrong and yet did it anyway. JH could have just as easily chose to call a police station and tell them to lock him up before he hurts someone. But instead JH made a different revenge type call and he chose to hurt people for his own revenge and his own greedy satisfaction. Like telling the world to *advertiser censored** O**.

3-All the lengthy days where he ordered his supplies and setup his apartment with all the death traps. He LOVED it. He got self satisfaction from that. It was proven when he was interviewed by the LE at the station about the booby traps. JH was loving that interview and showing off how great he was at making all those traps. He even got very sarcastic with the LE officer and was correcting him and enjoying playing "games" and "riddles" with his answers.
This was not someone out of control that did not know what he was doing. This was someone who was evil and yeah, a little twisted, but no where near the legal definition of total insanity.

Rather it is very obvious with all his days of ordering his supplies and setting his traps, it showed he was totally enjoying the evil aspect of his planning for what he chose to do. He was in total control of those choices with each order he placed for supplies.

He even explained how he did things to be sure nobody found him out. Like not ordering too much from any 1 place. That is not the act of someone who is out of his own mind. That is not the acts of someone who is totally insane. Nope. Far from it.

He was in total control as he set his traps and he got an evil kick out of it. By then he had resigned himself to committing an evil murderous act by choice. He wanted dramatic attention for his own selfish reasons. One of those reasons was likely because he felt he was handed a lousy deck with not being perfectly normal in the mind.

But what a selfish slap in the face to all the thousands and thousands of people that are born with handicaps or get handicaps from accidents. Many choose to fight their handicap as much as they can and live a productive life. Like Muscular Dystrophy sufferers or losing feet due to diabetes or losing breasts from breast cancer or losing limb in Afhganistan, etc etc. There are plenty of handicapped people that quietly suffer and try the best they can to live a normal life.

JH on the other hand chose to commit a LOUD selfish evil act.
Yeah, he will show us all right. He showed us his true evil self because he got handed a raw deal in life.

Well JH, now its the legal system's turn to deal the cards.


Sorry....I kind of went on a long rant there. :)
 
Hi! I missed that last one!
To me, it sounds like the defense got to put they're 'theory' into the jury instructions!?
Seems like reading the instructions, came across Instruction 21 or 22 & it told the defendant's theory that he was insane. Guess I would question it too! They said 'it seems informative & not an instruction"
Why did they get to put their theory of insanity into an instruction?
Confusing me. They were supposed to make their argument in trial.

Actually, I think it's a good thing..this way that whiteboard will come in handy...now they can look who actually credibly proved their theory? Both Gur and Woodcock got discredited and shown to be biased and didn't bother to research or investigate..due to Def. Team stopping them.

Then look at Reid and other's to disprove their claims..kind of like a checklist...I truly hope some of those juror's who have some personal/professional expertise can weigh in IF they are on the deliberating jury.

I wonder who the jury foreperson is???

The one thing do not have to even consider is "Did he do the killings etc"..That's already decided...
 
I would never want to be in a room with him alone if he slipped out of those handcuffs. My very intelligent 32yr son has schizoaffective disorder with voices and delusions., we have been dealing with this since his mid twenties.

Intrusive thoughts and voices NEVER go away. Meds just makes them sleepy, mellow and take the edge off. I have lots of experience with psychotic episodes believe you me. JH does not fit the mold.

JH does not come across as being truly schizophrenic to me.
 
Actually, I think it's a good thing..this way that whiteboard will come in handy...now they can look who actually credibly proved their theory? Both Gur and Woodcock got discredited and shown to be biased and didn't bother to research or investigate..due to Def. Team stopping them.

Then look at Reid and other's to disprove their claims..kind of like a checklist...I truly hope some of those juror's who have some personal/professional expertise can weigh in IF they are on the deliberating jury.

I wonder who the jury foreperson is???

The one thing do not have to even consider is "Did he do the killings etc"..That's already decided...

I hope your right Lyndy after reading juror profiles many have some mental illness background either through family members, profession and even themselves having some issues like ADHD and I think I read bi-polar.

This is worrisome as they may have some sympathy/ compassion for JH's mental illness.
 
When I was on a jury, on a much less complicated and emotional case, we still took our time and read through the jury instructions and made sure we all understood them, and even discussed them to a great extent. (In our case, there was one witness, the victim, who we all believed lied about certain aspects of the case, and we were really focused on the instruction that it was up to us to decide if we wanted to believe, all - none- or part - of his testimony. That helped us convict one of the accused, since we didn't believe him when he said he could identify the 2nd accused whom he never actually met, and only saw at a distance). So I think they're just going through things methodically which is what they should do. I will not start to worry until next Friday, and if there's no verdict after a week, then it's worth worrying about.

Just my opinion.
 
I am reading all posts and appreciate every single one. I have so much to say but I've been put on new meds and feel really sick. :(

Thank you everyone for your input. I hope I feel better soon so I can get more involved.


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I hope your right Lyndy after reading juror profiles many have some mental illness background either through family members, profession and even themselves having some issues like ADHD and I think I read bi-polar.

This is worrisome as they may have some sympathy/ compassion for JH's mental illness.

LOL..I always have a however a'brewing...But would any of those people be willing to even excuse one of their own IF they committed such a crime??? I doubt it really. While parents/family may have sympathy..They also realize..actions have consequences..malicious plots, plans and manipulating everyone around them in order to full fill their fantasy is simply inexcusable..especially when Pros. proved in spades..JH KNEW it was not only wrong..but capable of thinking clearly about how to deceive everybody around him..

JH was never under any control by anyone..so was free to do or act however he wanted..(He'd been hiding it from everyone including his parents since he was young)... Now as an adult/ NO controls it actually enabled him to proceed unfettered to plan his REVENGE on LIFE and by proxy "Humanity".

I agree with Hatfield totally on what his motive was..and it wasn't really about gaining value from those he killed..that theory was actually taken from some of the readings he had done..looking for that list of excuses he could use IF he got caught...IF was just gaining value..Why be so revengeful to Fenton..attempting to blame his whole life on her and it's her fault for what he did..SMH!!
 
I am reading all posts and appreciate every single one. I have so much to say but I've been put on new meds and feel really sick. :(

Thank you everyone for your input. I hope I feel better soon so I can get more involved.


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I sure hope you feel better soon. I have really appreciated all your posts!!!
 
I agree with Scott that they are immediately honing in on trying to figure out if he meets the legal definition of being insane.

And that is a tough thing for them to do IMO.

I am concerned that some of the jury may have different interpretations of what they are using to decide. Hopefully the jurors will be able to help each other if 1 or 2 of them has a wrong understanding of the rules of Colorado's legal definition.

The hard thing IMO for some to grasp is that having a mental illness doesnt equate to being legally insane. Its the severity of the illness that would dictate it.

I feel a little better knowing JH sat there in front of the jury and maintained his composure as a fairly normal person. I think it could have been much harder if JH had faked and acted out each day of the trial.

bbm

Good point -- I hope, since we hear commercials about BPD and other disorders that most of the jurors already know that BPD or OCD, etc., are not insanity. So we know a little more about things like this -- or at least, if we don't, we would not be afraid to ask -- I'm hoping that is the way it is in the jury room.
 
I am reading all posts and appreciate every single one. I have so much to say but I've been put on new meds and feel really sick. :(

Thank you everyone for your input. I hope I feel better soon so I can get more involved.


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Awe..feel better..remember..take med's with food..I always felt like "Cracker's..Saltines" were best tolerated when upset tummy's occur after taking a med.. :D
 
The problem with that theory tho is that he was in full control in his planning phase, preparation, even dated during that period, able to look up how to handle consequences of things..avoided telling the truth when asked by psychiatrists, was able to maintain hygiene of self, shop, methodically set up his apartment and even considered hiding the odours..leaving door slightly ajar with tripwire..yikes..never mind his paying his bills, rent onetime if not early....even just before entering theatre made a call to help line but hung up before answered..sent Fenton his notebook with money half burnt and made sure it wouldn't arrive until after his mission was complete.....ALL without medications..He even refused to take anti-psychotic meds because they would make him too sleepy..LOL

Sorry ..that is someone on a mission alright..and manipulating everything to create an excuse for himself to fulfill his fantasy...It wasn't a delusion..because it became a REALITY..and quite capable of doing it!!

It's a shame that you couldn't have been up there with our Brauchler to help him make his closing remarks!! Beautifully and wisely said, LLoo! Thanks for the fine gist of it all -- that's it, right there!
 
I sure hope you feel better soon. I have really appreciated all your posts!!!

Awe..feel better..remember..take med's with food..I always felt like "Cracker's..Saltines" were best tolerated when upset tummy's occur after taking a med.. :D

Thank you both! I'm hoping this is just short term. I don't want to miss out on the conversation at this stage in the proceedings.


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They'll be going home soon for the night. IIRC they said they'd work until 4:45 each day, yes?
 
They'll be going home soon for the night. IIRC they said they'd work until 4:45 each day, yes?

IIRC 815 AM til 430 Pm..MT that is :D

Just wanted to add..It appears they have been working thru their breaks too..DID not hear one word about breaks today...So that's a good solid day they put in IMO
 
LOL..I always have a however a'brewing...But would any of those people be willing to even excuse one of their own IF they committed such a crime??? I doubt it really. While parents/family may have sympathy..They also realize..actions have consequences..malicious plots, plans and manipulating everyone around them in order to full fill their fantasy is simply inexcusable..especially when Pros. proved in spades..JH KNEW it was not only wrong..but capable of thinking clearly about how to deceive everybody around him..

JH was never under any control by anyone..so was free to do or act however he wanted..(He'd been hiding it from everyone including his parents since he was young)... Now as an adult/ NO controls it actually enabled him to proceed unfettered to plan his REVENGE on LIFE and by proxy "Humanity".

I agree with Hatfield totally on what his motive was..and it wasn't really about gaining value from those he killed..that theory was actually taken from some of the readings he had done..looking for that list of excuses he could use IF he got caught...IF was just gaining value..Why be so revengeful to Fenton..attempting to blame his whole life on her and it's her fault for what he did..SMH!!

My theory is he wanted to do something really big that he would get notoriety and be remembered otherwise he was just a nobody wallflower women didn't notice or want. He wanted to be a bad boy. That's why he posted that line "Will you come visit me in prison" on friend finder and Match websites. Now he's got photos of woman that were sent to him plastered all over his cell walls. I'm sure they keep filling up his commissary account too. JH is quite popular in Jail. Remember the guy that left the note on the jail table and wanted his autograph???

These women that want an inmate really have mental issues even though some are smart, successful, and pretty. Famous killers Lyle and Erik Menendez comes to mind but there are many others.

I do believe JH is very mentally ill but wasn't insane.

http://www.rollingstone.com/culture...ied-in-prison-20141124/lyle-menendez-20141124
 
I am reading all posts and appreciate every single one. I have so much to say but I've been put on new meds and feel really sick. :(

Thank you everyone for your input. I hope I feel better soon so I can get more involved.


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Hope you feel better soon. I know that feeling.
 
So, I went over of the list of jurors. A man and a women were at Columbine. About 3, said they had someone in their family with some type of mental illness, one was a paramedic who transported mental patients. One an attorney, which I found curious. Usually, attorneys don't get picked for juries but they may be a cooperate or personal injury that didn't conflict.

I'm thinking just within this group, we have people that experienced first hand, a mass murder-they add an important view to the group. The attorney can help with the law. And the one's who experienced mental illness first hand- they easily understand that mental illness does not equal insane.

We had some generous posters here who shared their experiences with mental illness. To witnessing someone who is having a delusion &/or a psychotic break. They said that there was NO WAY that the person experiencing that would have ANY of the capabilities jh did. Even went further to say, they wouldn't be able to even drive to a place in full gear let alone to function to handle the guns. To that, he was speaking clearly to the police the whole time! They would be talking would be jibberish or at least make no sense in the throes of a psychotic break.

Just things I was putting together reviewing the jurors. Some who think he was insane, there are those who can explain that's not a way a psychotic break looks like, the attorney who can explain what is needed legally.
 
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