CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #16 *ARREST*

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Solicitation isn’t conspiracy because it lacks agreement (sorry if this plows old ground). Thus if he asked someone to commit murder, with or without PF’s direct participation, and that person declined, I have assumed that the person PF asked is a critical witness but not criminally culpable. A Colorado defense lawyer would know better though.
 
riolove77 said:
My honest to God opinion is that she is somewhere close to home. I think his goal was to point them in the direction of southern Idaho, but I don't think that's where she actually is. Recall that his entire purpose is to make sure she stays hidden forever. So why would it matter where that is? If he has access to mines, etc. in CO that will likely conceal her forever, there is no need to move her across state lines and take the various risks that come with transport of a body. Instead, he just gets rid of the body close to home quickly, and then sets about making it look like she was in ID. No one has to actually find her there to make his story work, if it goes how he plans.

Again, just MOO so I could be way off, but I do think she's close to home.
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I agree, it is more likely that she is close to home. However, I also considered what else he may have thought. Since he's not the sharpest knife in the drawer, he may have thought it would actually further his "story" that they were broke up, and she was heading to Idaho. Why? The texts came from Idaho. He could argue she ran into foul play after the texts, in Idaho if they find her there. As well, if they find her in CO, his story goes bust. JMT. Not sure this even makes any sense.
 
riolove77 said:
I just want to clarify one thing from a legal standpoint, once and for all.

As the charges stand NOW (subject to additional charges possibly), PF has been charged with solicitation to commit first degree murder. Not anything to do with moving the body after, anything to do with shipping or transporting the phone after, anything to do with cleaning up the mess after.

Solicitation to commit first degree murder means he solicited someone to help him commit the act that caused her death, PRIOR to her death.

If someone complied, perhaps we will see a conspiracy charge come up. If someone helped him after the fact, perhaps we'll see accessory after the fact come up. If someone helped him during, we might see an accessory to murder 1 charge.

But as it is now, he went to someone and asked for help killing KB prior to her murder happening. AND he is charged with murder 1. This was fully premeditated, not in the heat of passion, not a snapped situation, not second degree.
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While that's what he's been charged with, the body is not in the home where LE has determined the murder took place, the phone was not in the same state where LE determined the murder took place, and the home where LE determined the murder took place didn't appear to be out of order when her brother and LE did a wellness check. Would it be likely to add those charges as the investigation proceeds? Because it seems logical that the body was moved, the phone was taken into another state and the crime scene was cleaned.
 
jillianelaine said:
He was charged with solicitation. And at this point, no one else has been charged. In your professional opinion does this tell us anything regarding whether that 2nd person was involved in the murder, or the cover up. Or is it far too early in the investigation to tell....
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I was just about to ask the same thing. It doesn't look like anyone else is going to be charged. Thoughts?
 
NanZDrew said:
I wonder if his mom, or someone in his family, owned property in Idaho?
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Yes. I have asked this a few times too. If not mom, another family member or friend could live there or have a cabin or vacay home there .
 
Last edited by a moderator:
riolove77 said:
I just want to clarify one thing from a legal standpoint, once and for all.

As the charges stand NOW (subject to additional charges possibly), PF has been charged with solicitation to commit first degree murder. Not anything to do with moving the body after, anything to do with shipping or transporting the phone after, anything to do with cleaning up the mess after.

Solicitation to commit first degree murder means he solicited someone to help him commit the act that caused her death, PRIOR to her death.

If someone complied, perhaps we will see a conspiracy charge come up. If someone helped him after the fact, perhaps we'll see accessory after the fact come up. If someone helped him during, we might see an accessory to murder 1 charge.

But as it is now, he went to someone and asked for help killing KB prior to her murder happening. AND he is charged with murder 1. This was fully premeditated, not in the heat of passion, not a snapped situation, not second degree.
Click to expand...

Ha. I always think certain topics are settled “once and for all” too, but then new faces join and the questions and misunderstandings all cycle through again. :)
 
riolove77 said:
I just want to clarify one thing from a legal standpoint, once and for all.

As the charges stand NOW (subject to additional charges possibly), PF has been charged with solicitation to commit first degree murder. Not anything to do with moving the body after, anything to do with shipping or transporting the phone after, anything to do with cleaning up the mess after.

Solicitation to commit first degree murder means he solicited someone to help him commit the act that caused her death, PRIOR to her death.

If someone complied, perhaps we will see a conspiracy charge come up. If someone helped him after the fact, perhaps we'll see accessory after the fact come up. If someone helped him during, we might see an accessory to murder 1 charge.

But as it is now, he went to someone and asked for help killing KB prior to her murder happening. AND he is charged with murder 1. This was fully premeditated, not in the heat of passion, not a snapped situation, not second degree.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your post!! My husband and I were just discussing PF's premeditation. He lawyered up so fast.He knew he was going to need all the help he could get.
 
As far as I know, Patrick had a traumatic brain injury at some point. He was kicked in the head by a horse. This could have resulted in frontotemporal brain damage. This area of the brain controls impulses and personality. Thoughts below in random order:

1. It is very possible he had some grandiosity due to this injury. It’s common to have an impaired sense of self with this type of injury. As they meet online and it was a whirl-wind relationship, the way he presented himself to her in terms of success, financial stability, and reliability could have very well have been different in real life. The facade and reality might have become evident to her as time progressed. It might have been a bit delayed as they got pregnant and had a baby.

2. Sometimes religiosity is heightened with this type of head injury. Meaning, the idea they should be married or have sinned can create strange thoughts. If she slowed down the marital process if she started having doubts, this can create cognitive dissonance in him. Head injuries can fixate on ideas, like his ailing business can boost from him being a family man in the eyes of his peers. Her wanting a break could make him start persecuting her in his mind. Not seeing he too had a child out of wedlock, not accepting she might want a break.

3. Most highly intelligent women/men who get duped or derailed by men/women tend to go through a period of denial, embarrassment, and a sheer inability to process the situation. They second guess themselves and have issues with self trust. How could I not see this? He most likely was not as he seemed initially. She most likely was struggling trying to figure out how to extricate herself, tell family, or even trust herself. She most likely was going through the motions trying to sort through this. It could be extra difficult if family questioned her or cautioned against the whirlwind relationship. It could be extra difficult if she had expectations of herself due to religion. Example: being a cattle rancher vs seasonally raising a few head of cattle. Presents as a rancher to her initially, but in reality is more like 4H.

4. His old school style of handling animals actually could have been part of his head injury. Impulsive, easily frustrated, and semi aggressive. This is not abnormal and could leak into everyday life if not kept in check. It’s possible he perceived her dissatisfaction or intellectual discussions as a threat or confusing. If he had issues processing certain information, she could have easily overwhelmed him if she voiced frustrations. That’s not her fault as she didn’t signup for his scenario. I think she wanted it to work and to be happy, but he might have been hard to work with. This would explain why what family knew could have been different.

5. Online dating makes it super easy to fill in the blanks about daily life when you don’t see someone day in day out. She most likely had higher expectations and could not see some red flags. It happens to a lot of people. And once the honey moon period wore off, she was pregnant. That was the priority.

6. I genuinely think she was trying to break things off. There could have been a discussion on her part that she wouldn’t go with him to Thanksgiving. To him, because the poor head injury boundaries and possible dulusional thoughts, he couldn’t process. Obviously, they should be together as they had the baby and were engaged. What would people think? This is manadatory to be together. She was shattering how he structured the relationship in his mind. And he unleashed.

7. We keep mentioning why he waited 3 days, we’ll that is simple. He had obligations he couldn’t just leave. If he had appointments and expectations, he could not deviate. A head injury doesn’t mean he’s stupid, just different. I, too, would show up to my obligations like nothing was wrong. Then head off to sell a few head of cattle somewhere. Maybe saying I am selling them in Arizona, then head to Idaho.

Just some thoughts...
 
SuperTmo said:
Good! I hope so. I always worry about the family pets (or in this case, livestock) that are left in the aftermath of stuff like this.
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Several months ago I read where a woman was killed by two pit bulls that jumped over the chain link fence that contained them. The owner had been arrested by local LE for petty drug charges. He was in jail 3 days. The dogs were w/o food/water! LE saw the dogs during their arrest. I believe the victim had a pan of bird seed, possibly prompting the dogs to think she had dog food.
Had the owner had minor children in his care, social services would have been called. Should animals not be afforded the same courtesy? Yesssss! Sadly, not only was the woman killed but the two dogs were put down. *the dogs had never jumped the fence or been an issue in the past.
 
LucyOso said:
As far as I know, Patrick had a traumatic brain injury at some point. He was kicked in the head by a horse. This could have resulted in frontotemporal brain damage. This area of the brain controls impulses and personality. Thoughts below in random order:

1. It is very possible he had some grandiosity due to this injury. It’s common to have an impaired sense of self with this type of injury. As they meet online and it was a whirl-wind relationship, the way he presented himself to her in terms of success, financial stability, and reliability could have very well have been different in real life. The facade and reality might have become evident to her as time progressed. It might have been a bit delayed as they got pregnant and had a baby.

2. Sometimes religiosity is heightened with this type of head injury. Meaning, the idea they should be married or have sinned can create strange thoughts. If she slowed down the marital process if she started having doubts, this can create cognitive dissonance in him. Head injuries can fixate on ideas, like his ailing business can boost from him being a family man in the eyes of his peers. Her wanting a break could make him start persecuting her in his mind. Not seeing he too had a child out of wedlock, not accepting she might want a break.

3. Most highly intelligent women/men who get duped or derailed by men/women tend to go through a period of denial, embarrassment, and a sheer inability to process the situation. They second guess themselves and have issues with self trust. How could I not see this? He most likely was not as he seemed initially. She most likely was struggling trying to figure out how to extricate herself, tell family, or even trust herself. She most likely was going through the motions trying to sort through this. It could be extra difficult if family questioned her or cautioned against the whirlwind relationship. It could be extra difficult if she had expectations of herself due to religion. Example: being a cattle rancher vs seasonally raising a few head of cattle. Presents as a rancher to her initially, but in reality is more like 4H.

4. His old school style of handling animals actually could have been part of his head injury. Impulsive, easily frustrated, and semi aggressive. This is not abnormal and could leak into everyday life if not kept in check. It’s possible he perceived her dissatisfaction or intellectual discussions as a threat or confusing. If he had issues processing certain information, she could have easily overwhelmed him if she voiced frustrations. That’s not her fault as she didn’t signup for his scenario. I think she wanted it to work and to be happy, but he might have been hard to work with. This would explain why what family knew could have been different.

5. Online dating makes it super easy to fill in the blanks about daily life when you don’t see someone day in day out. She most likely had higher expectations and could not see some red flags. It happens to a lot of people. And once the honey moon period wore off, she was pregnant. That was the priority.

6. I genuinely think she was trying to break things off. There could have been a discussion on her part that she wouldn’t go with him to Thanksgiving. To him, because the poor head injury boundaries and possible dulusional thoughts, he couldn’t process. Obviously, they should be together as they had the baby and were engaged. What would people think? This is manadatory to be together. She was shattering how he structured the relationship in his mind. And he unleashed.

7. We keep mentioning why he waited 3 days, we’ll that is simple. He had obligations he couldn’t just leave. If he had appointments and expectations, he could not deviate. A head injury doesn’t mean he’s stupid, just different. I, too, would show up to my obligations like nothing was wrong. Then head off to sell a few head of cattle somewhere. Maybe saying I am selling them in Arizona, then head to Idaho.

Just some thoughts...
Click to expand...
EXCELLENT POST!!!
 
Warwick7 said:
Thank you for your post!! My husband and I were just discussing PF's premeditation. He lawyered up so fast.He knew he was going to need all the help he could get.
Click to expand...

My thought is that "lawyering up" is the most intelligent thing you can do today. A good lawyer will navigate you in unchartered waters that you know nothing about.

It does not prove guilt or innocence.

Every LE show you watch on TV you see it, every case we follow. It has become the norm, especially with the charge PF has.
He has relatives in LE, they know how it is done.
What I am trying to say as it does not tell me he is guilty or innocent because they all get a lawyer or public defender.
 
Mae’s Friend said:
Solicitation isn’t conspiracy because it lacks agreement (sorry if this plows old ground). Thus if he asked someone to commit murder, with or without PF’s direct participation, and that person declined, I have assumed that the person PF asked is a critical witness but not criminally culpable. A Colorado defense lawyer would know better though.
Click to expand...

That is what I'm thinking as well. I think he asked someone to help him before hand and that person declined. If so PF had to do this mostly on his own-- perhaps he found help after, but I'm not so sure. That may be why he didn't move one of her cars somewhere. I have been kicking around a theory in my head that PF might have been so stupid as to ask one of his LE-connected relatives or someone one of his relatives knows, for help. Maybe someone helped fix a speeding ticket or something else minor for PF in the past and PF thought it meant the person would help him with a much bigger "problem". Maybe the person ultimately declined to help but had made recordings of several conversations, just in case PF went through with it. That way the person approached would have evidence they refused to help him with that and evidence implicating PF in the murder.

I'm not sure though-- maybe our verified legal people here can answer-- would a LEO or retired LEO get in trouble if they failed to report conversations like that before the murder happened? Could they reasonably say they didn't think he would go through with it so they didn't report it? Could they say they thought he was just blowing off steam and wasn't serious? I wonder if it is a fine line? Could that be why LE in this case is saying there MAY be additional person(s) charged? If they are still investigating the person who PF solicited they may be weighing their options or waiting on evidence. MOO.
 
Mae’s Friend said:
Solicitation isn’t conspiracy because it lacks agreement (sorry if this plows old ground). Thus if he asked someone to commit murder, with or without PF’s direct participation, and that person declined, I have assumed that the person PF asked is a critical witness but not criminally culpable. A Colorado defense lawyer would know better though.
Click to expand...
If he asked someone he knew to kill her, and they refused so he did it himself and told that friend exactly where he did it....if that person went to the police and LE discovered evidence of blood in that spot, is that in itself enough to get a judge to sign off on the charges?
 
12/24/2018 P-5 People's Response to Defendant's Motion to Limit Pre-Trial Publicity
12/24/2018 P-4 People's Response to Defendant's Notice of Invocation of all Statutory, Case Law, and Constitutional Privileges
12/24/2018 P-3 People's Response to Defendant's Motion for Preservation of Physical Evidence
12/24/2018 P-2 People's Response to Defendant's Notice of Representation and Demand for Notice of any Pre-Trial Nontestimonial Identification Procedure Sought Pursuant to Crim. P.41.1
12/24/2018 P-1 People's Response to Defendant's Motion for Preservation and Production of Law Enforcement Notes, Recordings, and Other Evidence
12/24/2018 D-004 Notice of Invocation of all Statutory, Case Law, and Constitutional Privileges
12/24/2018 D-002 Notice of Representation and Demand for Notice of any Nontestimonial Identification Procedure Sought Pursuant to Crim. P.41.1
12/24/2018 CTO-02 Decorum Order
 
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