CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #19 *ARREST*

[NanZDrew]

Matt Kroschel on Twitter
The formal charges including felony first degree murder filed but not addressed in the courtroom just now- local/national media covering these developments. DA’s office about to hold press conference. * We will have the latest at 11am over on @CBSDenver

This concerns me. It sounds like they were strict about video in court. I would hate to think someone could take pictures and jeopardize the case. We don't want to know what the court looks like badly enough to jeopardize this case and see the ones responsible walk.

 

[sun16]

Any ideas on why they specifically pick the dates of Sep 1 - Nov 1, 2018 on the solicitation charges? Especially the Nov 1 date - could it be that that’s when he had an accomplice lined up and no longer needed to “solicit” one?

I’d say because someone is talking and/or they have electronic evidence.

 

[BingoBongo]

There seem to be many rumors floating around but they have not been confirmed or verified by LE.

Definitely not confirmed. My gut says the rumors are pretty close to the facts, and that parties are being "protected" as witnesses. I think LE knows knows what happened, but needs time to gather it all, verify it all, and make sure there are no loop-holes for some atty. to use. I hope all involved in this horror are prosecuted to the extreme!!

 

[Auntie Cipation]

Coupla thoughts.

First, robbery or burglary is still a crime even if the item is later returned. At least I believe so.

The example from a case near me was a perp using the victim's own car to transport her body. He later returned the car (and presumably the keys) but it's still burglary. Of course the murder is the primary crime but sometimes there are reasons to include the other charges as well.

I really hope LE has checked out KB's vehicles for any evidence they may hold.

Between and including September 1, 2018 and November 1, 2018, PATRICK FRAZEE unlawfully and feloniously commanded, induced, entered, or otherwise attempted to persuade another person to commit the felony of murder in the first degree, with intent to promote or facilitate the commission of that crime and under circumstances strongly corroborative of that intent.

Snipped by me. There's that Sept date again. Maybe the range of dates is correct as filed, intended to give a general timeframe only, and then the database couldn't display a range of dates so only the first date, the 9/01/18, was listed, creating the "clerical error".

Another thought: If the robbery had actually been successfully completed, wouldn't there be a charge for it as well? If so, that suggests that the robbery was only attempted, and she died in the process, but nothing was actually stolen.

ETA: it seems that the definition of robbery doesn't actually require anything to be taken, it's simply unlawful entry for the purpose of committing a crime? Attorneys can maybe clarify?

 

[The Saint]

Possible scenario: Two people hired to kill Kelsey and make it look like a robbery. They go to PF to get paid and he kills both of them and the third person solicited is up in Idaho with the phone.

Maybe that's why the cadaver dogs hit on that patch of land by the Frazee's green ranch house. It was where the 2 hitman met their demise.

 

[NanZDrew]

This concerns me. It sounds like they were strict about video in court. I would hate to think someone could take pictures and jeopardize the case. We don't want to know what the court looks like badly enough to jeopardize this case and see the ones responsible walk.

Ok, so this is from a reporter? Sorry, it looked like a person in the courtroom had shot with a cell phone.

 

[Jessthinkin]

I think a reporter stated the Sept 1st date was a clerical error. It was posted in the thread earlier this morning.

The DA said in this morning's press conference the 9/1 date wasn't a mistake.... it was purposely created to be broad.....

 

[SandyQLS]

You shared a link a few pages back with me that said: Felony murder is murder that occurs during the commission of another crime (robbery, kidnapping, etc.), with the other crime being the primary intention and murder happening as a secondary result.

So unless his intent was to go there and get the baby and he just happened to murder Kelsey in the process, it doesn't fit the felony murder charge. The taking of her phone and purse doesn't fit either unless he went there to steal it and he killed her in the process of taking it. The taking of the baby and the purse/phone seems to be the secondary crime here, not the primary. The primary crime would be the murder. JMO Even the solicitation supports that the murder would be the primary crime and it was premeditated.

That's very good reasoning.

IMO felony murder more often applies to a crime like robbing a convenience store and shooting the clerk to death. In that case, the primary goal was the robbery, and there was no intent to murder, hence felony murder.

Did KB have something valuable to steal? The Safeway also has a Wells Fargo Bank branch inside. Could PF have known she was getting a large sum of cash that day, told the solicited person about it to make the murder look like a robbery/felony murder?

We need our legal experts in here!

 

[PommyMommy]

Is there court documents out there that the media has available that we don't? I have been wondering where the "attempted robbery" thing came from as well. I have read it in some articles, but have not and did not read that in the documents we saw this morning ( I am sceptical of media reports sometimes... lol)

I don't know. I'm hoping to listen to the news conference again. The reporters are confusing things. Now this:

Lance Benzel on Twitter
Other theory is #Frazee could be accused of trying to kill three people. You don't need a completed murder to have solicitation charge, observer Dubois said. Won't know which theory is correct till docs are released. #KelseyBerreth @csgazette

 

[sun16]

I think a reporter stated the Sept 1st date was a clerical error. It was posted in the thread earlier this morning.

These errors—jeez. Makes a difference.

 

[NanZDrew]

Coupla thoughts.

First, robbery or burglary is still a crime even if the item is later returned. At least I believe so.

The example from a case near me was a perp using the victim's own car to transport her body. He later returned the car (and presumably the keys) but it's still burglary. Of course the murder is the primary crime but sometimes there are reasons to include the other charges as well.

I really hope LE has checked out KB's vehicles for any evidence they may hold.

Snipped by me. There's that Sept date again. Maybe the range of dates is correct as filed, intended to give a general timeframe only, and then the database couldn't display a range of dates so only the first date, the 9/01/18, was listed, creating the "clerical error".

Another thought: If the robbery had actually been successfully completed, wouldn't there be a charge for it as well? If so, that suggests that the robbery was only attempted, and she died in the process, but nothing was actually stolen.

ETA: it seems that the definition of robbery doesn't actually require anything to be taken, it's simply unlawful entry for the purpose of committing a crime? Attorneys can maybe clarify?

I think they have evidence like texts, phone records that indicate that he has been plotting this since Sept. 1.

 

[PommyMommy]

Lance Benzel on Twitter
Dubois -- speaking generally -- offered two theories about solicitation counts. One possibility is authorities believe #Frazee tried three times to have #KelseyBerreth killed, either asking three different people or one person three times. @csgazette

 

[NanZDrew]

I wonder if the robbery was to take some evidence that PF was involved in another crime. Maybe she had pictures. One poster on here talked so much about PF being involved in criminal activity, that I am starting to think they may know more about PF than we do.

 

[BingoBongo]

I need to post this, I know it's off topic but I hope the mods will let it stand.

I have a daughter whom I love very, very much. And other young women in my family that I cherish. I know men can be taken in by evil women too, but it seems to happen more to women.

Having been involved with someone whom I now consider to be a sociopath narc, and potentially dangerous...and having studied up (last 2 years) on everything I could find (from reputable sources) I'd like to say - please, please, please don't rush into relationships!!!!

There is evil in the world, sometimes well-hidden. Take your time getting to know someone, do your homework (on-line and off), don't be afraid to ask hard questions, and PLEASE, if you find something that makes the hair on the back of your neck prickle - don't question that! LEAVE and never look back.

 

[AuggiesMom23]

The DA said in this morning's press conference the 9/1 date wasn't a mistake.... it was purposely created to be broad.....

I missed that. Thanks!!

 

[The Saint]

Or maybe instead - or in addition — an engagement ring?

What if it was a Frazee heirloom engagement ring (like from one of Patrick's grandmothers) and Kelsey wouldn't return it because she wanted the relationship to work?

 

[KBB87]

It's long been reported that KB phone and purse are missing.
No diamonds or staging required here -- we know what is missing.

If it’s her purse and phone, it sounds like the felony murder charge would require him going there specifically to rob her of her purse and phone and then she ended up dead because of that. Unless she had several thousand dollars of cash in her purse, that seems unlikely to me. It doesn’t sound like the charge would fit if he/they just disposed of her phone and purse after the fact.

 

[kkdj]

What's the five murder counts?

 

[Ccging]

The one thing that gets to me I think the most in this whole case is that if LE has people that are talking and knew of the plan that PF was putting into action, it seems as though they do not know ultimately where Kelsey’s body is, I fear only PF knows....

 

[riolove77]

Coupla thoughts.

First, robbery or burglary is still a crime even if the item is later returned. At least I believe so.

The example from a case near me was a perp using the victim's own car to transport her body. He later returned the car (and presumably the keys) but it's still burglary. Of course the murder is the primary crime but sometimes there are reasons to include the other charges as well.

I really hope LE has checked out KB's vehicles for any evidence they may hold.



Snipped by me. There's that Sept date again. Maybe the range of dates is correct as filed, intended to give a general timeframe only, and then the database couldn't display a range of dates so only the first date, the 9/01/18, was listed, creating the "clerical error".

Another thought: If the robbery had actually been successfully completed, wouldn't there be a charge for it as well? If so, that suggests that the robbery was only attempted, and she died in the process, but nothing was actually stolen.

ETA: it seems that the definition of robbery doesn't actually require anything to be taken, it's simply unlawful entry for the purpose of committing a crime? Attorneys can maybe clarify?

Breaking and entering with the intent to commit a felony is burglary, not robbery. Robbery is theft in the presence of or from the body of the victim, done with force or threat of it.