CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #20 *ARREST*

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Yeah I agree.

The premeditated nature of this crime, coupled with the fact that he attempted to mislead the investigation, makes it likely that he had a plan for her body.

He thought this through, atleast to an extent.

I think that the reason that he didn’t care if he looked guilty, was because he never thought a case could be made against him.

A major part of that, was likely a feeling of security as far as law enforcement never finding her body.

No body, no criminal charges, atleast in his mind.

Wrong!

Agree.

I just don't think he came up with this plan on his own, he doesn't seem like he would know the legal significance of a body never being found. He must have discussed this with someone. Which make me think that maybe the person he solicited really was intimately involved in all aspects of this- planning through execution. And this person probably has been having the screws applied now for a week or two. No charges yet due to plea bargaining or whatever is done at this stage...and I would be shocked if it was a woman.

I really look forward to more LE information coming out in the next few weeks. The more details that are provided, the more I realize I have been wrong on how this played out.
 
What strikes me is that everything is just so normal. I usually throw myself together quickly and grab what I need and dash out. Just so routine.

Me too. In fact that video haunts me, because she’s just going about a regular errand thinking normal thoughts, and certainly never knowing her life was about to tragically end.

<modsnip: off topic>
 
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I think there are likely numerous remote locations he could have disposed of the body. I don't think he travelled to Idaho, at least not anywhere near where the phone was found. I just think it would have taken too long for him to have explained his being gone that long. So many people would have known he went somewhere for a couple of days.
I do know that many killers put the body somewhere that they are familiar with. He must have been very familiar with the land around him. He probably had his pick of dozens of good spots. Imo
I agree with you; I bet he knows most of the surrounding area like the back of his hand. Someone in an earlier thread mentioned that there are lots of abandoned mines in the area, and then last week I listened to the podcast "Cold" about the Susan Powell murder. In one of the episodes, searchers described how harrowing and dangerous it is to search an abandoned mine, and even after being "searched" (to the extent they could safely search it) and having lights shone down into it, they could leave a "searched" mine not feeling 100% positive that Susan Powell wasn't in there, but missed by them. I definitely have a sinking feeling about the probability of PF using an abandoned mine for his plan. :/
 
I wonder too. So often in these cases we see an absentee father,
single mother or if two parents, they're both so busy working
that the kids are neglected emotionally and/or physically.
I've seen it even in 2 parent families where the parents don't get along and should be divorced but still live together and the
children suffer.
Usually family dynamics DO play a large part in these cases.
I tend to think that instead of mother neglect, his anger and impulsive rages (flipping the horse trailer, etc.) stemmed from deep insecurities. Insecure about rodeo performances, insecure about how others (siblings?) perceived him still living with mom, insecure about not being able to afford to move out with his fiancé, insecure in watching his fiancé progress in her career, feeling pressures from his mom vs KB, pressures from some in his community about when was he going to marry that girl. Some people have an extremely difficult time controlling big emotions, both learned and Genetic. The inability to see and act upon a healthy option is completely overshadowed when they reach that boiling point. This often results in violence of varying degrees. That resulting violence can sometimes lead to murder (and! In the planning of such). so is the case with PK I do believe.
 
I'm guessing this was his line of thinking...

1. He felt certain he did an excellent job of cleaning up after the murder at KB's place so there would be no evidence of a crime.
2. I am guessing he did a very good job of hiding her body, at least as far as he is concerned. I don't have a lot of hope of her body being located unless he or an accomplice talks or one of the phones reveals something.
3. And he believed by having her phone ping in ID like it did it would place her there.

Putting them all together, if all 3 items worked according to his plan - 1. no sign of a murder at her place or his; 2. no body was ever located; 3. her phone did ping 800 miles away a few days later. Thinking it would go to trial and be heard by a jury I would expect there to be enough "reasonable doubt" if he could have accomplished all of these things correctly, which he didn't. I know by having sat on a jury once how they stress in no uncertain terms about reasonable doubt. I think that was his plan - no evidence of a murder, no body and her phone pinged 800 miles away a few days later. MOO
 
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I'm guessing this was his line of thinking...

1. He felt certain he did an excellent job of cleaning up after the murder at KB's place so there would be no evidence of a crime.
2. I am guessing he did a very good job of hiding her body, at least as far as he is concerned. I don't have a lot of hope of her body being located unless he or an accomplice talks or one of the phones reveals something.
3. And he believed by having her phone ping in ID like it did it would place her there.

Putting them all together, if all 3 items worked according to plan - 1. no sign of a murder at her place or his; 2. no body was ever located; 3. her phone did ping 800 miles away a few days later. Thinking it would go to trial and be heard by a jury I would expect there to be enough "reasonable doubt" if he could have accomplished all of these things correctly, which he didn't. I know by having sat on a jury once how they stress in no uncertain terms about reasonable doubt. I think that was his plan - no evidence of a murder, no body and her phone pinged 800 miles away day later.
I doubt he ever considered that he would be arrested, atleast in the days following the crime.

The second you involve another person in a crime like this, you dramatically increase the odds of being exposed.

You’re right, he thought that those three steps would be enough.

Fortunately he was mistaken.
 
Agree.

I just don't think he came up with this plan on his own, he doesn't seem like he would know the legal significance of a body never being found. He must have discussed this with someone. Which make me think that maybe the person he solicited really was intimately involved in all aspects of this- planning through execution. And this person probably has been having the screws applied now for a week or two. No charges yet due to plea bargaining or whatever is done at this stage...and I would be shocked if it was a woman.

I really look forward to more LE information coming out in the next few weeks. The more details that are provided, the more I realize I have been wrong on how this played out.
It really makes me wonder if he used past conversations with family in law enforcement as a way to formulate some of his plan. I’d be curious about murder cases family members may have worked on to see if that could give ideas.
 
Especially if she was buying Pillsbury cinnamon rolls...or ingredients to make homemade ones. I've been wondering if the cinnamon rolls where made AFTER she went to the store, that they were the reason or part of the reason she went to Safeway in the first place. They would therefore be proof that she had not willingly disappeared. She had just recently bought what she needed and then she made them.Why walk out and abandon them to go cold? And why make them at all if she was handing Baby K over to her father for a few days. I'm betting she would not eat the entire batch herself, and made them partially for the baby.
I thought maybe she made them for breakfast, since most kids are hungry as soon as they get up. Do we even know what time she went to the store?
 
IMO Frazee has done a lot of work to muddy the facts,including making sure Kelsey's trail was headed to Idaho. He told people they had broken up, he told different times of the breakup, but he told people after she disappeared that they had broken up. He made sure he was seen with the baby, at work, to look like a devoted dad imo. Meanwhile we know now that he was soliciting people to murder her and he must have been planning what to do with her body, how to hide her so she'd never be found. Given that the phone was sent to ID, it would make sense that he planned to dispose of her in a different direction. I tried to research to see what a killer typically does, how far is the usual distance he disposes of a body, but I can't find anything. I would guess it would be less than the 800 miles to Twin Falls ID and it must have been done fairly quickly.
So if he travelled to ID to dispose of the phone and if he disposed of her before he headed to ID, where in the general vicinity would he have disposed of her? Are there any abandoned mining shafts within an hours travel time?
I know some have postulated that he could easily dump her out of his car and down a ravine, so what roads would lend to that kind of terrain, with little traffic so he wouldn't be noticed?
He seems to be quite certain that her body won't be found, so he must have disposed it of somewhere that would be nearly impossible to get to. Again, all JMO.

PF has been planning this scheme for many months.
Gradually we are finding out his different stories, at different times, to different people.
He is a liar, using these lies towards his plan.
As LE believe Kelsey was murdered in her home, there must be evidence present.
If a great deal of blood, painting etc her body may have been dismembered.
Perhaps the solicitored person (although not involved in the murder) has assisted LE regarding this.
As PF has had a great deal of time planning this, he possibly had already chosen his disposal site, and dug out an area beforehand.
OR PF had the exact spot (mine, ravine, cliff etc) to place Kelsey.
We may never know Kelsey's whereabouts but I hope PF will be nailed, losing his freedom for life.
MOO.
 
Really hoping they tracked PF’s phone everywhere and are checking all spots where his phone pinged for her body, i am sure they are... And that’s why i think they hit on something in the yard and dug all that up. Maybe he was outside pacing back and forth talking to someone for an hour or even several hours.. and they knew he spent a ton of time outside one of those nights on thanksgiving weekend. His mom could have easily been sleeping late at night having no idea he was outside.. and he was out there with even her body and not sure what to do with it and called his buddy to discuss where to take her.. also... his truck they took.. probably some evidence in there that her body was in there..
 
IMO
-KB "broke up" with PF 1/2018, but allowed him to continued having a relationship with little K, only.
-PF ended his that "relationship" ( & KB's life) on 11/22/2018 and kept little K, thinking he would never have to do another exchange with KB again
So...
- PF says to his lawyer there were no problems with the "relationship" because there was no "relationship" (romantically speaking) for the past year, only times when they exchanged custody (caregiver of) little K with each other.

As far as robbery, I don't believe that she ever had any ring or engagement/plans to marry.
I think perhaps that was something that was said to appease other people.
There are 9 months to to go to a justice of the peace to be "married" before a child is born.
With or without a ring.
The baby would be "legitimate" and carry the dad's name.


KB probably had better medical insurance, wasn't married to PF and didn't live with him, knowing that little K was his.
So, there are two seperate household bills being paid.
Even if PF's mom is paying his.

So, KB is paying for her household, medical insurance and probably medical bills.

A break up in Jan 2018 makes sense!

If PF was the father couldn't KB force the issue and require a paternity test that would in turn force him to help provide for the child? (As well as force her to be allowed visitation with child.) *which she was already doing.

The gears are turning, so this may not be stated correctly, if it were the opposite.

Kb is pregnant, she knows who the father is and is living with him. They are both splitting the bills, but she still refuses to go to the JOP, making the child "legitimate", but continues live with JF?
Baby is born and given KB last name- how does that work? PF refuses to sign the affidavit to sign the birth certificate and isn't forced to have a paternity test proving his paternity?

How does that work?
Would KB just not be forcing the issue, by asking for financial assistance because she has enough $ and wants him to spend time with the child, but knows she can end it at amy time?

I'm not making sense.

Paternity doesn't have to be established by DNA as an affidavit can be signed.
The reason for not signing would be for the man to not be held financially responsible for the child until 18 right?
Why would KB ok with that?
Or more generally why would any woman be ok with that?

Moo
 
According to an article in People, some relatives said Kelsey broke up with him weeks prior to her disappearance.

I’ll go find the link...

ETA: Fiancé of Missing Colo. Mom Charged with Murder as Authorities Allege He May Have Sought Help

Questions linger about the exact status of the couple’s relationship, with relatives saying Berreth had called off the engagement weeks before she went missing. Others have stated the couple split the day of the killing.
Maybe they were on and off again
...
 
  • Especially if she was buying Pillsbury cinnamon rolls...or ingredients to make homemade ones. I've been wondering if the cinnamon rolls where made AFTER she went to the store, that they were the reason or part of the reason she went to Safeway in the first place. They would therefore be proof that she had not willingly disappeared. She had just recently bought what she needed and then she made them.Why walk out and abandon them to go cold? And why make them at all if she was handing Baby K over to her father for a few days. I'm betting she would not eat the entire batch herself, and made them partially for the baby.
I'm wondering if that's the recipe she called her mom for? If so, it would seem to me she thought she was visiting somewhere on Thanksgiving and was bringing those as her contribution? MOO
 
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