CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #50 *ARREST*

[Kapua]

I can think of a few things that she might need to take the 5th on, to protect herself legally.

If I try to look at this situation from a grandma's point of view, I can see possible issues for her.

Let's say that SF knew the grand baby was supposed to spend the day at her mother's condo. But then her son brought the baby home, and he was with another woman, from Idaho, and they were being sketchy, and they ended up building a bonfire in the yard, for some unknown reason.

And then later she hears that the baby's mother is missing?

She might want to plead the 5th after all that?

SF knows that baby K was with PF exclusively from Nov. 22 on. She knows that there was a fire on her property on Nov. 24. She also knows that PF was late for dinner on Nov. 22 and arrived with baby K but not KB. Lastly, she is one of many who did not pick up the phone and call LE, which may be one of those immoral but not illegal things. SF has information. But I'm not seeing that she has committed or participated in an actual crime. IANAL, but I think she can be called to testify, and held in contempt of court if she fails to do so, or charged with perjury if she lies. And I really don't think the prosecution needs her testimony, so I think they will be weighing whether it is worth the aggravation to call her. MOO

 

[ajaylee]

I agree with much of what you said. Unfortunately LE can’t simply force someone to talk during an investigation.

I will say that I think there are many things found at the burn site that are still being tested for traces of human dna. I can only speculate that the accelerant and black balls of plastic were easier and quicker to identify. Moo

I’m sure they are still receiving testing results back on various pieces of evidence. Moo

Caylee Anthony has been in the news. It still blows my mind that the combined effforts of LE and the judicial system couldn't get that cray-cray girl to tell the truth and, imho, she got away.

Makes me more nervous about this case than I should be, I guess, particularly since we don't know everything LE knows and the search for the body is still on-going.

 

[ab01]

Caylee Anthony has been in the news. It still blows my mind that the combined effforts of LE and the judicial system couldn't get that cray-cray girl to tell the truth and, imho, she got away.

Makes me more nervous about this case than I should be, I guess, particularly since we don't know everything LE knows and the search for the body is still on-going.

There’s a lot of evidence in this case in moo, especially as far as the tight timeline of KB actual murder.

Also I’m not sure you will find the same inept jury as the Anthony case if you tried a million times....moo

I’m not nervous at all about this case, PF all but painted a picture of KBs murder by all the dumb things he did.

 

[ab01]

I know circumstantial evidence always make people nervous bc there is no csi smoking gun in this case. That we know of anyways, although I believe it’s there and it will be damming.

But there is a mountain of circumstantial evidence in this case.

Surveillance video, damning lie by PF

Cell pings

Lies to LE

Lies to CB

Lies to Doss

Medical documents with no KB or even CB listed.

Lies about KB medical treatment to individuals before and after the murder.

Cadaver dogs hit at Nash ranch where kB body was

Statements by bank about pf and RS odd behavior.

The odd behavior about the package.

PF had baby K for ten days and nobody could get ahold of KB. Pf shows no concern.

Not one of these specific things makes a conviction necessarily, but the all stack up.

And they all combined paint a clear picture of his guilt IMO

And these are all things that are in addition to KK incriminating statements about PFs involvement.

 

[Noharg]

LE might know what it is. Just because she isn't testifying to it doesn't mean she is the only source of the information. That's what I'm wondering, if LE knows what it is.

The time of PF's arrival and KK being at the home wouldn't incriminate her, so I don't think she would be able to take the fifth on those pieces of information. I'm thinking it must be some action she took or didn't take that relates directly to the murder of KB or disposal of her body.

She cannot take Fifth on questions she has already answered.

I found this on HG.org

“An individual cannot use the Fifth Amendment as a blanket of protection for any statement. The test is whether the witness reasonably believes that the disclosure could be used in a criminal prosecution or that it could lead to other evidence that might be used against him or her. Therefore, the answers to questions that would not aid prosecutors are not protected by the Fifth Amendment. Likewise, if the answers could not aid in a criminal prosecution, such as by the nature of them relating to a crime which has run past the statute of limitations, these answers are not protected. Similarly, if the witness has been granted immunity from prosecution, he or she may no longer reasonably fear such prosecution and can be made to testify. ”

 

[Area52]

I believe SF will be forced to answer some questions regarding PF whereabouts and actions. I think if the prosecutor asked her if she knew of a body being burned obviously she can plead the fifth. But I’m not sure if she will be allowed to plead the fifth if the prosecution asks her simply, to your knowledge did pf have any kind of fire on such and such a date at such and such a time. I think the judge would say answer the question Mrs F ...moo

It is my understanding that if someone is going to plead the 5th during a trial, they must do so to ALL questions. They cannot pick and choose which ones they will answer and which ones they won't. Will some of our legal experts please answer this for me??

 

[Noharg]

It is my understanding that if someone is going to plead the 5th during a trial, they must do so to ALL questions. They cannot pick and choose which ones they will answer and which ones they won't. Will some of our legal experts please answer this for me??

I’m not a legal expert, but I believe the Fifth can be taken on those questions that the witness thinks would incriminate him/her. So yes, a witness can “pick and choose”.
JMO

 

[MsBetsy]

I’m not a legal expert, but I believe the Fifth can be taken on those questions that the witness thinks would incriminate him/her. So yes, a witness can “pick and choose”.
JMO

Yes, that's the way I understand it to be as well.

 

[ab01]

Fifth Amendment Right Against Self-Incrimination - FindLaw

Can Any Witness Plead the Fifth?

At a criminal trial, it is not only the defendant who enjoys the Fifth Amendment right not to testify. Witnesses who are called to the witness stand can refuse to answer certain questions if answering would implicate them in any type of criminal activity (not limited to the case being tried). Witnesses (as well as defendants) in organized crime trials often plead the Fifth, for instance.

But unlike defendants, witnesses who assert this right may do so selectively and do not waive their rights the moment they begin answering questions. Also, unlike defendants, witnesses may be forced by law to testify (typically by subpoena)

 

[MyBelle]

I assumed they wanted her testimony to back up the pings and KK's testimony. As I noted elsewhere, right now we have actual evidence that there was a fire - but we don't have hard evidence proving when that fire took place - only KK's word.

The mystery is why SF would plead the 5th. She should have nothing personally to fear, right? She's done nothing illegal. She doesn't have the right to plead the 5th to avoid testifying about PF.

In short: what is it that SF knows that she thinks would hurt PF?

BBM. It's really quite simple. The DA wanted to ask SF about an alleged fire on her property. Open burning of waste (such as plastic) has been illegal in Colorado for years. SF is the owner of the property which is why her attorney told the judge she would invoke the 5th.

JMO

 

[ab01]

BBM. It's really quite simple. The DA wanted to ask SF about an alleged fire on her property. Open burning of waste (such as plastic) has been illegal in Colorado for years. SF is the owner of the property which is why her attorney told the judge she would invoke the 5th.

JMO

Are you merely speculating? Or do you have a link to where May States what he intended to ask?

 

[MsBetsy]

Fifth Amendment Right Against Self-Incrimination - FindLaw

Can Any Witness Plead the Fifth?

At a criminal trial, it is not only the defendant who enjoys the Fifth Amendment right not to testify. Witnesses who are called to the witness stand can refuse to answer certain questions if answering would implicate them in any type of criminal activity (not limited to the case being tried). Witnesses (as well as defendants) in organized crime trials often plead the Fifth, for instance.

But unlike defendants, witnesses who assert this right may do so selectively and do not waive their rights the moment they begin answering questions. Also, unlike defendants, witnesses may be forced by law to testify (typically by subpoena)

Delete. Already stated.

 

[MsBetsy]

Is this your opinion? Or do you have a link to where May States what he intended to ask?

I don't remember anything that was specifically mentioned. Just that they may be able to get the information from another witness, I think. Or was it from another source?
Maybe it's a combination of things they intended to ask. Imo

 

[Irmese]

Ha! And then spread blood under the floorboards, on the fireplace, and God knows where else.

It’s absurd.

Also in the kitchen, on the pillows, etc. in the living room. I can safely say that, as a female having grown up with a mom and a sister and having raised two girls, I have seen and/or cleaned up some specks of blood on the toilet and even a few drops on the floor. I have never known of menstrual blood getting on the ceiling. I have had a pretty serious and not uncommon medical condition that caused an extremely heavy flow and still never managed to get blood on the ceiling of the bathroom or anywhere outside of the bathroom. MEO (My Experience Only).

 

[MassGuy]

Landfill expert weighs in on search for Woodland Park woman Kelsey Berreth

[...]

Retired after 34 years in law enforcement in Texas, Reed assesses landfills for NecroSearch International. The organization is currently looking for the body of Kelsey Berreth, who is believed to have been murdered in her Woodland Park townhome by her fiancé, Patrick Frazee.

Reed developed the technique for searching landfills. “We have a methodical and calculated way to help identify where law enforcement is looking in the cell of the landfill,” he said.

[...]

Landfill searches are complicated. “Most people don’t realize that when you talk about a cell that is 20 feet deep, 100 feet wide and 100 feet long — when you start unpacking that you’re taking down about an 80-story building, straight up,” he said.

Reed does the initial assessment of landfill searches. “We come in and say where we project it is in the cell, and say ‘Here’s how much trash you’re going to have to remove to get to it,’” he said. “’And here’s how long it’s going to take, and here’s your cost factor, and here’s the equipment you’re going to need.’”

[...]

Reed has a track record. “This one is my 51st search and I’ve been successful on 40,” he said. “I’ve done thousands of assessments and if the probability of finding anything is zero, I say it’s not worth the expense.”

The variables for success include lack of log sheets or if a transfer station is not up-to-date.

[...]

Founded in 1988, NecroSearch International is a 501 (3)(9) nonprofit organization. “We’re a combination of scientists and law enforcement,” he said. “The ground tells us where the grave could be — not necessarily how the body decomposed ... .”

While Reed’s expertise is landfills, the 55-member organization includes botanists, archaeologists, anthropologists, geologists, geophysicists, hydrologists, entomologists, in addition to law enforcement. “We have search experience and a drone expert who is also a photographer for National Geographic,” he said.

[...]

This is very encouraging.

An 80% recovery rate is absolutely incredible.

I had no idea that many bodies ended up at landfills.

 

[LittleDoe]

Caylee Anthony has been in the news. It still blows my mind that the combined effforts of LE and the judicial system couldn't get that cray-cray girl to tell the truth and, imho, she got away.

Makes me more nervous about this case than I should be, I guess, particularly since we don't know everything LE knows and the search for the body is still on-going.

Caylee was found dead in 2008. When LE gathered information for the case against Casey, the technology was much different. Not every juror understood how a home computer or even a cellphone worked back then. Today it would be rare to find a person who had never used one of these items personally. I think that LE in the PF case will have enough to put him away.

 

[MemPat]

This is very encouraging.

An 80% recovery rate is absolutely incredible.

I had no idea that many bodies ended up at landfills.

This is my favorite info since the hearing!

I'm encouraged that at least part of KB's remains will be found and her family can say she wasn't left in the garbage.

I hope PF outlives his family so he will one day be buried in a potter's field.

 

[MyBelle]

Really? I find it a little hard to believe that a stranger or your grown child's friend will walk into your house unannounced and you're ok with that. I would expect that if my adult child brought anyone into my home, they would introduce the person at some point at the very least. That's just common courtesy.

My adult children's friends don't need a formal announcement in order to enter my home. Usually the adult child is the one who opens the door, not me. Works for us just fine. I'm betting SF has known KK for years and needed no "introduction."
JMO

 

[MassGuy]

This is my favorite info since the hearing!

I'm encouraged that at least part of KB's remains will be found and her family can say she wasn't left in the garbage.

I hope PF outlives his family so he will one day be buried in a potter's field.

Yeah, that number is pretty stunning. It makes me a lot more optimistic that Kelsey’s remains will be found.

I’ve been talking about Necrosearch for a while now, because the work they do is incredible.

If I were to have guessed their success rate (in landfill searches) before this, I would have put it around 40%.

That number being close to twice that, means that Kelsey’s family has a very real opportunity to give her the proper burial she deserves.

 

[MemPat]

Caylee was found dead in 2008. When LE gathered information for the case against Casey, the technology was much different. Not every juror understood how a home computer or even a cellphone worked back then. Today it would be rare to find a person who had never used one of these items personally. I think that LE in the PF case will have enough to put him away.

And I'm not sure Casey really "got away" when the best she can do in life is hang out in a bar with another criminal while dreaming of her big break - posing nude in Hustler!