CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #53 *ARREST*

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Hatfield said:
I agree that PF probably went right back over to Nash ranch after he showed his face at his Mom's Thanksgiving dinner.

This is all JMO and some musings.

I think he took her body and dumped it down an abandoned mine somewhere not too awful far from Nash ranch. I keep thinking back to what he told his ex girlfriend years prior about knowing a place to hide a body where nobody would find it. IMO, that is the place he took KB to and I have a feeling its an abandoned mine. Probably a pretty deep and steep one that would take ropes and rapelling gear to enter the mine hole.

Then I think he took the empty plastic tote and used it to burn whatever other evidence he needed to burn back at his Mom's place with KK present. Like maybe some clothing, the purse, and other evidence they needed to destroy.
See, he had to burn the empty tote anyway because of body fluids that would have left a very bad odor by the next day.

The part of KK's story that sounded like hogwash to me was when she said she didnt look in the tote and assumed KB was in there. The reason that story is so full of BS is, for one, a person would easily know if the weight of the tote is heavy enough to hold a body. So by the way it was being hauled around would give a hint if there was a heavy body in there or not. And more important than that is once the edges of the plastic burnt down then a person watching the fire would easily be able to see what was inside the tote once the edges melted and folded down onto whatever was inside.

The outside is going to melt and burn first and then fold onto whatever is inside. It would take a very long time to burn an actual body and if that was attempted then whoever was watching the fire burn would surely know what is inside as they watched it burn. You can see pretty good inside fires and you can see the outline of things as they burn down. That body would have become "visible" as the sides melted and folded down onto whatever was inside.

I think KK's story broke down right there. As it was burning, then she would positively know one way or the other whether a body was really inside that tote. For her to say she assumed it was in there but never looked inside and that she never knew for sure one way or the other once the sides melted and folded down, and never really knew what PF did with the burnt debri is some of the biggest load of crap in her whole story. IMO she knows exactly whether the body was really in that tote when she and PF burned the tote and I am pretty sure the body was already down a mine hole by then.

Another reason the body could not have been in that tote as he and KK burned it at his Moms place is there would be an awful mess that would be a major undertaking to get cleaned up after the fire went out. Not to be gross but I doubt PF could have gotten the fire hot enough to reduce the skull and large bones to ash so I am thinking it would be a mess to have to get rid of. From the way LE escavated the dirt near the house I think they ended up only finding bits of the plastic tote but not much else and that would be consistent with no body being burned. PF and KK probably just burned the tote and whatever other clothing items or other items that needed final cleanup. I suspect the body was already dumped down a mine shaft by then.

LE finding nothing at the dump further adds to the theory that the body may not have been burned at all.

Now to help LE actually find the body.
I started to think about the abandoned mines in Colorado and it sounds like a daunting task to check them but really there is a shortcut LE could take.

They could first eliminate any abandoned mines unless within an hours drive of the Nash ranch.

Then they would only have to look in mines where they see recent disturbances around the opening. Because PF would surely have scuffed up the ground and dirt near the entrance to the mine. So any mine that shows no disturbances could be ignored at first and they would only have to search any mines where there looks like recent disturbances to the opening area. Like scuffs or marks on the ground.

The only problem now is so much time may have gone by by now so im not sure if the small disturbances PF probably made would even be recognizable by now. But its still possible that LE may find scuff marks that look rather fresh and if they only searched those first it would help focus on the right abandoned mine.

Just some musings on how LE could still maybe find KB.

I dont think PF used a river because he would know it would eventually be found. Rivers and Lakes have a tendency to float up a body eventually and I doubt PF would have chosen a river. I think he had a place in mind since his discussion with his ex girlfriend years before and he finally got to use that place.

I also think his ex-girlfriend may be lucky to be alive too because if he shared that story with her years before then he may have been thinking of getting rid of her at the time he told her that. Maybe the discussion he had with her was more of an argument where he said "I could kill you and hide your body where nobody would ever find it". I cannot think of any other discussion where that subject would come up unless he was in a heated argument with her at the time.
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Great outside of the box thinking. But I think PF actually burned KB's body in that plastic tote, for these reasons. The cadaver dog hit on the discolored bale of hay on which PF allegedly placed the tote. PF added gasoline to the fire (according to KKL). To burn clothing, a purse, etc. you wouldn't need to use gasoline. PF knew that he needed to get that fire as hot as possible to burn a body. If there were fragments left, they may have been confined to the metal trough, along with whatever was left of the black plastic tote. LE was lucky to retrieve a bit of the black plastic. I don't know if PF put her in the landfill or found another location, but I think he is lazy and controlling. By keeping her on his mother's private property, he could ensure that LE would have to execute a proper search warrant before conducting a search. So if KB is not in the landfill, and she may or may not be, then I am going to guess that she is somewhere on the Frazee property - possibly buried. All MOO.
 
Noharg said:
The consensus here seems to be that PF will plead not guilty. Is there anyone who thinks he will testify?
Click to expand...

Hi, that is a tough one to answer;

1 he has been very silent so far,
2 he may well try to work on the fact of stating KB was abusive,
3 he might do so to attack KK's information/statement,
4 I do think it will mainly be determined by his lawyer's recommendation,
5 ultimately it will be his decision,

anyone's guess really, we have not heard himself speak that I can remember.
 
A few thoughts:

IIRC, SF owns two other pieces of property. No idea where they are. It's possible that they're located in places where cell records show he never went.

It makes my blood boil when there's talk of KB being an abusive mother. What does that have to do with her murder? Even if she were abusive, and there is no evidence whatsoever that she was, it certainly didn't give PF the right to lay a hand on her.

I'm still cloudy on the sequence of events on Thanksgiving Day. Did PF murder KB, put her in the tote, and then try to clean himself up? If so, did he leave the tote with KB's body in it at the condo until after dinner? Surely he didn't go to Thanksgiving dinner with KB's body in the tote in his truck?
 
ajaylee said:
A few thoughts:

IIRC, SF owns two other pieces of property. No idea where they are. It's possible that they're located in places where cell records show he never went.

It makes my blood boil when there's talk of KB being an abusive mother. What does that have to do with her murder? Even if she were abusive, and there is no evidence whatsoever that she was, it certainly didn't give PF the right to lay a hand on her.

I'm still cloudy on the sequence of events on Thanksgiving Day. Did PF murder KB, put her in the tote, and then try to clean himself up? If so, did he leave the tote with KB's body in it at the condo until after dinner? Surely he didn't go to Thanksgiving dinner with KB's body in the tote in his truck?
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I think he took Kelsey’s body with him to Thanksgiving dinner.

After dinner, he transported her remains (in the tote) to Nash.

He probably felt confident that no one would give a second thought to the tote in the back of his truck.

After all, he left a bloody crime scene for two days. Bringing a body to Thanksgiving dinner, is probably less risky.
 
It’ll be interesting to find out if PF turned his cell phone off from the time he went to and left Thanksgiving dinner and whenever he arrived home after dumping Kelsey. If he even tried to cover his tracks, I would imagine his phone was turned off for at least a few hours.
 
Wouldn’t you think LE has checked other places (eg mineshaft) for Kelsey's body and come up empty handed? Whatever made them go to the dump, do they have nothing else intel-wise re: locations to look? Frustrating.
 
Hatfield said:
I agree that PF probably went right back over to Nash ranch after he showed his face at his Mom's Thanksgiving dinner.

This is all JMO and some musings.

I think he took her body and dumped it down an abandoned mine somewhere not too awful far from Nash ranch. I keep thinking back to what he told his ex girlfriend years prior about knowing a place to hide a body where nobody would find it. IMO, that is the place he took KB to and I have a feeling its an abandoned mine. Probably a pretty deep and steep one that would take ropes and rapelling gear to enter the mine hole.

Then I think he took the empty plastic tote and used it to burn whatever other evidence he needed to burn back at his Mom's place with KK present. Like maybe some clothing, the purse, and other evidence they needed to destroy.
See, he had to burn the empty tote anyway because of body fluids that would have left a very bad odor by the next day.

The part of KK's story that sounded like hogwash to me was when she said she didnt look in the tote and assumed KB was in there. The reason that story is so full of BS is, for one, a person would easily know if the weight of the tote is heavy enough to hold a body. So by the way it was being hauled around would give a hint if there was a heavy body in there or not. And more important than that is once the edges of the plastic burnt down then a person watching the fire would easily be able to see what was inside the tote once the edges melted and folded down onto whatever was inside.

The outside is going to melt and burn first and then fold onto whatever is inside. It would take a very long time to burn an actual body and if that was attempted then whoever was watching the fire burn would surely know what is inside as they watched it burn. You can see pretty good inside fires and you can see the outline of things as they burn down. That body would have become "visible" as the sides melted and folded down onto whatever was inside.

I think KK's story broke down right there. As it was burning, then she would positively know one way or the other whether a body was really inside that tote. For her to say she assumed it was in there but never looked inside and that she never knew for sure one way or the other once the sides melted and folded down, and never really knew what PF did with the burnt debri is some of the biggest load of crap in her whole story. IMO she knows exactly whether the body was really in that tote when she and PF burned the tote and I am pretty sure the body was already down a mine hole by then.

Another reason the body could not have been in that tote as he and KK burned it at his Moms place is there would be an awful mess that would be a major undertaking to get cleaned up after the fire went out. Not to be gross but I doubt PF could have gotten the fire hot enough to reduce the skull and large bones to ash so I am thinking it would be a mess to have to get rid of. From the way LE escavated the dirt near the house I think they ended up only finding bits of the plastic tote but not much else and that would be consistent with no body being burned. PF and KK probably just burned the tote and whatever other clothing items or other items that needed final cleanup. I suspect the body was already dumped down a mine shaft by then.

LE finding nothing at the dump further adds to the theory that the body may not have been burned at all.

........
I also think his ex-girlfriend may be lucky to be alive too because if he shared that story with her years before then he may have been thinking of getting rid of her at the time he told her that. Maybe the discussion he had with her was more of an argument where he said "I could kill you and hide your body where nobody would ever find it". I cannot think of any other discussion where that subject would come up unless he was in a heated argument with her at the time.
Click to expand...

A great informative post, as often your posts are.:)
Your thoughts about KK being unaware whether a body was present in the tote, are very clear.
Hope she is hammered on these points.
Also, the body over a cliff, or a mine shaft, may be further investigated, with time.
I am waiting for such evidence.
MOO.
 
GordianKnot said:
This is how/where/when PF transported KB's body on Thanksgiving in my mind's eye, too.

The transportation of KB's remains in the black plastic tote thingy from the Franch over to Nash is a curious action step in the sequence.

What made PF more comfortable with the idea of leaving KB's body hidden at Nash for a couple of days vs. somewhere on his own property?

Was the owner of Nash out of town at the time?

JMO.
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If I recall correctly, he stored the tote inside one of two barns on the property. I believe the barn is on Nash acreage PF used for grazing, and not an active residence where he'd be seen or evidence located right away. MOO
 
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GordianKnot said:
DBM.
Click to expand...

Seattle1 said:
If I recall correctly, he stored the tote inside a barn on the property. I believe the barn is on Nash acreage PF used for grazing, and not an active residence where he'd be seen or evidence located right away. MOO
Click to expand...

More from PF 2/19/19 hearing (descending time order):

2:42 p.m.

They went to Frazee’s property first that day. Kenney showed investigators where the burn was. New exhibit (#12) is a photo of an aerial view with a pin indicating where the burn area was. Again these site visits were Dec. 21. Slater says Kenney had no difficulty remembering where the burn area & Nash Ranch were.

2:41 p.m.

Kenney, on Dec. 20, said Frazee had to climb this large stack & go to the back to grab the tote and a plastic bag containing Kelsey’s gun. The tractor was used to bring the tote down from the top of the stack, Slater says.

2:39 p.m.

More exhibits. First (#9) is a photo of two red barns on Nash Ranch. Second (#10) is a photo of a bale of hay that is distinctively discolored from other bale. Third (#11) is the tractor Slater says Frazee used to move the hay bale.

2:36 p.m.

The sites where investigators and Kenney visited during the second interview with CSPD: the Nash Ranch, Kelsey’s townhome & back to the Frazee residence. Those were on Dec. 21, state says.
[...]

2:20 p.m.

Kenney couldn’t confirm if Kelsey Berreth was still in the tote. Frazee then pulled a trough & started a large fire with gasoline to burn the tote, Slater says, per Kenney.

2:18 p.m.

Frazee, per Kenney, used a ladder to put Kelsey Berreth’s body near a big haystack. They took the tote with her gun inside.

2:16 p.m.

This is all on Nov. 24. After that text, Kenney met Patrick at the Florissant Conoco Gas Station to go to the Nash property (can confirm it’s Nash). Kenney says Frazee backed the truck up to a large red barn.

2:15 p.m.

Frazee wanted Kenney to take the remains to Idaho. Kenney refused. Frazee said, “we’re finishing this.” So, at Frazee’s direction, Kenney texts Cheryl Berreth from Kelsey’s phone saying she’d call her tomorrow. Sheila Frazee had Kaylee.

2:10 p.m.

Kenney says Frazee put Kelsey in a black tote and set that on the ground near the green Toyota before putting it in his truck & transporting her remains to a ranch in Fremont County. Didn’t catch the name. It sounded like Nash Ranch or Dash Ranch. Again, bad acoustics.

Live blog: Patrick Frazee appears in court for preliminary hearing
 
I personally cannot wait to see the look on the face <modsnip - TOS violation> when he finally has to enter a plea. It's hard to believe PF has been sitting in jail since mid Dec without one.

LE and DA May have more evidence than we know about and the evil necessity that is KK seals the deal. I also cannot wait to see the former rodeo queen on the stand.

So many people conspired against such an innocent, sweet, hardworking young mother. It still boggles my mind that NO ONE tipped of LE before it actually happened. Unbelievable. All I can say is "Karma is a cruel mistress".
 
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Dave F. said:
Nash Ranch, where the two red barns are located, is listed on AirBnB at a starting price of $145.00 plus tax per night.
Nash Ranch: Near Cripple Creek & Royal Gorge - Houses for Rent in Canon City, Colorado, United States
Click to expand...
Thanks Dave. I remember when you shared this before, but I still don't see the 2 hay barns. I don't believe they are located near the "headquarters" or home now rented out to travelers/ vacationers.

Good on the heirs though for turning to AirBnB rather than forced to sell the property.

MOO
 
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Hatfield said:
I agree that PF probably went right back over to Nash ranch after he showed his face at his Mom's Thanksgiving dinner.

This is all JMO and some musings.

I think he took her body and dumped it down an abandoned mine somewhere not too awful far from Nash ranch. I keep thinking back to what he told his ex girlfriend years prior about knowing a place to hide a body where nobody would find it. IMO, that is the place he took KB to and I have a feeling its an abandoned mine. Probably a pretty deep and steep one that would take ropes and rapelling gear to enter the mine hole.

Then I think he took the empty plastic tote and used it to burn whatever other evidence he needed to burn back at his Mom's place with KK present. Like maybe some clothing, the purse, and other evidence they needed to destroy.
See, he had to burn the empty tote anyway because of body fluids that would have left a very bad odor by the next day.

The part of KK's story that sounded like hogwash to me was when she said she didnt look in the tote and assumed KB was in there. The reason that story is so full of BS is, for one, a person would easily know if the weight of the tote is heavy enough to hold a body. So by the way it was being hauled around would give a hint if there was a heavy body in there or not. And more important than that is once the edges of the plastic burnt down then a person watching the fire would easily be able to see what was inside the tote once the edges melted and folded down onto whatever was inside.

The outside is going to melt and burn first and then fold onto whatever is inside. It would take a very long time to burn an actual body and if that was attempted then whoever was watching the fire burn would surely know what is inside as they watched it burn. You can see pretty good inside fires and you can see the outline of things as they burn down. That body would have become "visible" as the sides melted and folded down onto whatever was inside.

I think KK's story broke down right there. As it was burning, then she would positively know one way or the other whether a body was really inside that tote. For her to say she assumed it was in there but never looked inside and that she never knew for sure one way or the other once the sides melted and folded down, and never really knew what PF did with the burnt debri is some of the biggest load of crap in her whole story. IMO she knows exactly whether the body was really in that tote when she and PF burned the tote and I am pretty sure the body was already down a mine hole by then.

Another reason the body could not have been in that tote as he and KK burned it at his Moms place is there would be an awful mess that would be a major undertaking to get cleaned up after the fire went out. Not to be gross but I doubt PF could have gotten the fire hot enough to reduce the skull and large bones to ash so I am thinking it would be a mess to have to get rid of. From the way LE escavated the dirt near the house I think they ended up only finding bits of the plastic tote but not much else and that would be consistent with no body being burned. PF and KK probably just burned the tote and whatever other clothing items or other items that needed final cleanup. I suspect the body was already dumped down a mine shaft by then.

LE finding nothing at the dump further adds to the theory that the body may not have been burned at all.

Now to help LE actually find the body.
I started to think about the abandoned mines in Colorado and it sounds like a daunting task to check them but really there is a shortcut LE could take.

They could first eliminate any abandoned mines unless within an hours drive of the Nash ranch.

Then they would only have to look in mines where they see recent disturbances around the opening. Because PF would surely have scuffed up the ground and dirt near the entrance to the mine. So any mine that shows no disturbances could be ignored at first and they would only have to search any mines where there looks like recent disturbances to the opening area. Like scuffs or marks on the ground.

The only problem now is so much time may have gone by by now so im not sure if the small disturbances PF probably made would even be recognizable by now. But its still possible that LE may find scuff marks that look rather fresh and if they only searched those first it would help focus on the right abandoned mine.

Just some musings on how LE could still maybe find KB.

I dont think PF used a river because he would know it would eventually be found. Rivers and Lakes have a tendency to float up a body eventually and I doubt PF would have chosen a river. I think he had a place in mind since his discussion with his ex girlfriend years before and he finally got to use that place.

I also think his ex-girlfriend may be lucky to be alive too because if he shared that story with her years before then he may have been thinking of getting rid of her at the time he told her that. Maybe the discussion he had with her was more of an argument where he said "I could kill you and hide your body where nobody would ever find it". I cannot think of any other discussion where that subject would come up unless he was in a heated argument with her at the time.
Click to expand...

Great post! Thanks for taking the time to go into it so deeply. I too had thought of mine shaft and the exact words were used by the person who killed Erin Corwin and dumped her body down a mineshaft. Which they eventually found.
 
I’m not a big fan of this mineshaft idea.

Plenty of killers have done this, and it would have been entirely feasible for PF to have done the same.

That being said, why go through the charade with KK?

This guy was as lazy as he was sloppy, and I just don’t see him going through that kind of effort to deceive the woman who could already bury him if she talked.

I suppose it’s possible that he dumped the burned remains in a spot like that, but I continue to believe the landfill was searched for a reason, and that reason was specific and credible evidence that Kelsey’s remains were disposed of there.
 
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MassGuy said:
I’m not a big fan of this mineshaft idea.

Plenty of killers have done this, and it would have been entirely feasible for PF to have done the same.

That being said, why go through the charade with KK?

This guy was as lazy as he was sloppy, and I just don’t see him going through that kind of effort to deceive the woman who could already bury him if she talked.

I suppose it’s possible that he dumped the burned remains in a spot like that, but I continue to believe the landfill was searched for a reason, and that reason was specific and credible evidence that Kelsey’s remains were disposed of there.
Click to expand...

How about a "root cellar" then. :)

This caught my eye today when reading about the Airbnb.

Wonder how deep, how far back, how many locks, and who has the keys to the "root cellar"?

"The outbuildings and root cellar are STRICTLY OFF LIMITS as they are used by our grazing lease holder. The root cellar is not safe and to be avoided."

Nash Ranch: Near Cripple Creek & Royal Gorge - Houses for Rent in Canon City, Colorado, United States
 
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