CO CO - Roger Ellison, 17, Cedaredge, 10 Feb 1981 #2

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I just think that too many people take stories like this and say "what reason would he have to lie about THIS on his deathbed?" So in that way of thinking it's either a lie and he's off his rocker, or it's all the Holy truth and he couldn't even be mistaken by a couple of months. But in actuality the area between truth and deception isn't that cleanly cut. And there are many reasons to muddy the lines between the two even further than they may already be. What I see is that first of all, he could honestly have been off by a couple of months. It's curious how the memory works sometimes. You can see the whole thing happen in your head over and over and yet the green tree that you see in your minds eye was really a telephone pole. There's no reason to lie about it, but it's just not recorded 100 % correctly in your mind when it happens. Why should it? It isn't the focus. However in implicating himself as the innocent bystander who watched but didn't report it, he could be elevating feelings of guilt by telling a version of what happened. However not implicating himself any further than that, or anyone else.


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which remains are you referring to? Yes, Roger had 5 siblings I believe. Closest in age was his sister, Becky. Who now resides in Leadville CO. The individuals (poachers) were never named, but I had read that they had identified the man who they saw as an individual who had resided locally, but had since moved away. LE never identified that suspect.
 
One must first know what under conditions "on [his] deathbed" entails. I was very nearly on my death bed a couple years ago, hooked to a ventilator and clocked out on morphine, and, under such conditions, let me tell you, one can be quite an unreliable narrator when it comes to speaking of the past.
 
One must first know what under conditions "on [his] deathbed" entails. I was very nearly on my death bed a couple years ago, hooked to a ventilator and clocked out on morphine, and, under such conditions, let me tell you, one can be quite an unreliable narrator when it comes to speaking of the past.

Not only that, but how far is early spring compared to February? Spring starts in March, which is a month later. I do not think that is a big difference to discredit the entire confession.
 
I would agree with that, but it begs the question if Roger disappeared on Feb 10th, why keep him alive for a month or more? I would still like to know why no one in his class... a class I think of 50 students no one inquired why he did not show up in class. I can understand in a large school with over 1000 seniors... but he told his locker partner he would catch up with him in class and then disappeared.
 
I would agree with that, but it begs the question if Roger disappeared on Feb 10th, why keep him alive for a month or more? I would still like to know why no one in his class... a class I think of 50 students no one inquired why he did not show up in class. I can understand in a large school with over 1000 seniors... but he told his locker partner he would catch up with him in class and then disappeared.

The only reason I could think of, did some students think that Roger's life was in danger, IF he was really killed? Perhaps they did not want to say anything for fear of their own safety? In other words, did the students and perhaps the faculty at this small town school know more than they ever said about Roger vanishing without a trace? If those two men existed, poachers or not, and the one guy is still alive and evidence shows he is telling a truthful story, you find him, have him willingly interviewed, you solve this case. If those men never existed and the story is indeed a sham, we are back to Roger going away to start a new life or committing suicide and wanting to get far away in an isolated location so that his body would never surface.

Satch
 
Pretty sure one or more students know what happened, and what at the time was happening; it got much too heavy much too quickly and that knowledge has been, for 35 years, deeply buried and almost forgotten in the psyches of adults now in their early 50s. But I suspect that knowledge has damaged (and even perhaps destroyed) one or more of the students who knew.
 
If those men never existed and the story is indeed a sham, we are back to Roger going away to start a new life or committing suicide and wanting to get far away in an isolated location so that his body would never surface.

Or someone else murdering Roger. Even if those men didn't exist, someone else may have had a motive to kill. The one thing that John Pash wrote which made sense to me, was the fact that this "poacher story" seems to be unsubstantiated. Where did Charley Project get this information? Old newspaper stories? Maybe if I have time tonight I will research some archived Colorado articles. But really, we don't even know if this is true or "folk lore" circulated on the web.

Someone else said that the police have never said they thought Roger was murdered. I will try to find evidence in articles linking authorities to this, but his Doenetwork page does say "Foul Play is suspected". Considering the circumstances, this is what I theoretically believe too. I believe if Roger had planned to kill himself, he would have done it at home. People say that maybe he wanted to spare his parents, but if this were the case, wouldn't he know that "hiding" his own body and them not knowing what happened would be torture? Most people who hang themselves kill themselves at home. Now, if Roger were to shoot himself, this would mean he would have stolen a gun without anybody knowing-because if a gun was missing from the Ellison home, I think police would suspect suicide--and walked deep, deep into the woods.

No suicide letter, nothing to comfort his grieving parents. His family who knew him best, his closest friends, none of them have come forward saying Roger was suicidal or had ever been depressed. He seemed "preoccupied" in the month leading up to his disappearance, but so do many teenagers. Maybe his mind was on the ski trip, maybe he had his eyes on someone new. That does not equate suicide contemplation or a secret plan to leave without a trace forever.

Pash is the only person who has come forward putting forth a Freudian assignment theory that revealed some hidden secret in Roger's life. Do we even know if this even happened? Well, you are free to believe whatever you'd like to believe. But the theory that Roger would run away is really not based on any evidence. First off, he left his clothing. Do you not think a teenager would at least pack a small bag? An extra jacket or change of clothing? A birth certificate? A letter to parents who would miss him? His money? Do you really think he would not tell or contact any of his friends? And even if he did, do you think those friends would watch his family suffering and an innocent man having the finger pointed at him? Would they not let it slip eventually?

Would a seemingly sheltered teenage boy have the capacity to lead an assumed identity with no money for the rest of his life? This is what leads me to my theory that one lone person did it. A group of individuals, in my opinion, would crack sooner or later. We see it time and time again. One person tells one person and there are rumours or that person tells the police. And to my knowledge, the only rumours have been surrounded John Pash. They still do; check internet posts where people claim to have been a student of his and say he took advantage.

A young, hip adult. A young, impressionable young man. An inappropriate relationship. An advance that was rejected. A threat to go to school officials, the police, the community. A wife and children to protect. People, Roger was not involved in any heavy duty drug group; this is Cedaredge! He was an athlete. What are the three things involved in most murders? Love, revenge or money. Roger was a young man, he did not have any money. He seemingly had no enemies who would kill him over a revenge, and if he did, they would be fellow teenagers. And teenagers are usually short sighted, irrational, and sloppy. That leaves love. Roger didn't have a girlfriend. If he were involved with another student, again, I think they would be sloppy.

That leads me to believe he was killed for an illicit love affair with an adult who did not want it revealed. Who meticulously planned and carried it out, got rid of the body with much foresight and adult knowledge in where to put it so nobody found it. Did he have a father or trustworthy relative to help him? A spouse who was dependent on him and willing to help the husband cover their tracks and spare the children the grief? A spouse who would provide an alibi, even? That could even fit in with the two poacher's theory, as well.

All my opinion.
 
Found some newspaper articles, including ones from 1981 which detail his disappearance, including the name of the student who saw him last at the locker. I don't know if I can screenshot them and post them here because they're copyrighted. I can summarize some main points.

Some points that I've found so far from the first 1981 article I found:

  • Roger did not return the books. He was getting a book for his first class. He dissapeared sometime between getting that book and walking to his first class. Which makes me think someone from the school was able to lure him away to a place nearby.
  • Roger had paid his first semester dormitory fee at the college he was accepted to. The article says he didn't smoke and would only have one beer if he won a ski race.
  • He was popular with girls, "but didn't have a steady date".
  • Roger left his $1,000 he had saved from his jobs untouched. He only had $3 on him. He left his car and skis at home!
  • He wasn't dressed for the weather, he only wore tennis shoes. His parents were convinced he didn't run away so they combed the woods, ditches and backroads.
  • No drug problem, no hint of mental illness or depression.
  • Friends and neighbours put up a $10,000 reward.

Here is where the Poachers Theory originated: http://blogs.denverpost.com/coldcas...possibly-kidnapped-gunpoint-led-woods/7915/3/

The witness, who passed a polygraph test according to a report by Harrison, gave a description of a man they allegedly saw with Ellison. The second man was interviewed and corroborated the story, according to a Sept. 16, 1998 story in the Montrose Daily Press.

The lead investigator at the time, Dave Duncan, said the two men identified a man who had left the area.

There had been rumors circulating previously that this person was involved in Ellison’s disappearance, Blair told the newspaper, but they have never been verified. He believed that people who had information about the case had not come forward.

“There have been rumors out there the person may have played a role but it has never been proven other than a lot of people pointing fingers,” he said. “There are people out there that know and won’t come forward.”

So the men identified a man who had "left the area"; John Pash left the area shortly after Roger's disappearance. There was also a lot of speculation and rumours surrounding him, according to his own account.

A comment by a woman named Maggie who claims to be Roger's cousin:

My thanks go out to Kirk Mitchell for writing this story about my cousin Roger. The local law enforcement really dropped the ball on investigating Roger's disappearance. Somebody out there knows what happened! There were allegations that the young teacher had drug and sex party's at his home next to the school. The whole community should be outraged over how this was handled, and would be if it was their child. It's true, my uncle died of a broken heart and my aunt never gave up looking for him. His family never will. Roger's classmates would be in their 50's today with children his age of there own. We beg people to review their memories and come forward with the most trivial of thoughts. You never know how the pieces of this mystery can come together.
 
FYI the Montroe Daily Press article erroneously reports that Roger put his books in his locker. That is how it originated. However, the original 1981 and 1982 articles which were widely published throughout the country said he retrieved the book he needed for class from his locker, after asking his locker mate to wait and "hold it open for him". I tend to believe the earlier articles more accurate and the subsequent article to have fudged a detail by accident. So, Roger was not kindly "returning" his books because he was planning to off himself.

I think Roger had a prearranged meeting with someone that morning. Perhaps he met with this person regularly at a particular spot, in a private area of the school or nearby the school. Perhaps someone caught him off guard on the way to class and told him he needed to talk privately, it was an emergency. Roger didn't intend to be long, he just to see what this person wanted. Roger trusted this person. That person then lured Roger into a car and drove him to the woods, or the two took a shortcut to the woods nearby. Then, that person brandished a gun and perhaps handcuffs and forced Roger further into the woods. You know the rest. Then, that person probably buried Roger in a hastily dug shallow grave and hurried back before anyone noticed them missing. This could all occur within 30 minutes.

The fact that the poachers were at that exact place at that exact time is interesting. If they are to be believed, then it was quite a coincidence. I think the perpetrator knew the wooded area and was likely a hunter himself. I can't guess as to why these two men did not intervene. Maybe they were in shock, or just felt it was better to not get involved, maybe they were afraid they would be accused. Who knows? In any case, I really think that someone has gotten away with "the perfect murder". Well, not exactly, I just think perhaps that person was calm and collected enough to fool police and hide any evidence in an age before DNA.
 
Hello everyone. I have been monitoring this thread for quite a while now, as well as most of the other online resources and articles regarding this case. I was a classmate and friend of Roger's and like most everyone else would really like to see this case resolved. Unfortunately it seems as though this case has kind of stalled of late and would like to see it progressing forward again. I know most, but not all, of the people mentioned with respect to this case and have some opinions regarding the case. I will do my best to answer any questions that may arise and make sure everyone knows whether or not it is just my opinion. The first thing I would like to mention is the issue of suicide. As you know, that possibility has been discussed a lot on this forum, both from those who believe that is what happened as well as from those who don't. It is my opinion that he did not commit suicide. There are several reasons I believe this and can go into those if people desire but I strongly believe that is not what happened to him.
 
Hello everyone. I have been monitoring this thread for quite a while now, as well as most of the other online resources and articles regarding this case. I was a classmate and friend of Roger's and like most everyone else would really like to see this case resolved. Unfortunately it seems as though this case has kind of stalled of late and would like to see it progressing forward again. I know most, but not all, of the people mentioned with respect to this case and have some opinions regarding the case. I will do my best to answer any questions that may arise and make sure everyone knows whether or not it is just my opinion. The first thing I would like to mention is the issue of suicide. As you know, that possibility has been discussed a lot on this forum, both from those who believe that is what happened as well as from those who don't. It is my opinion that he did not commit suicide. There are several reasons I believe this and can go into those if people desire but I strongly believe that is not what happened to him.
What then, in your opinion, did happen to him?
 
I believe he was killed soon after he disappeared. I absolutely hate the thought of this. Because I believe he did not commit suicide combined with the fact that he has not been heard from by anybody in 35 years, I simply can not reach any other conclusion that makes sense. Also, it seems this is what LE believes and there is nothing I can think of that could dispute this. This is purely speculation on my part.
 
I believe he was killed soon after he disappeared. I absolutely hate the thought of this. Because I believe he did not commit suicide combined with the fact that he has not been heard from by anybody in 35 years, I simply can not reach any other conclusion that makes sense. Also, it seems this is what LE believes and there is nothing I can think of that could dispute this. This is purely speculation on my part.

First off, hi! I am so happy you're here. I don't follow missing cases much anymore, but for some reason, I have always felt a strong attachment to Roger's case.

I have some questions. Feel free to only answer what you can and what you feel comfortable answering!

What did you think of Roger? I imagine him as a really nice guy, laid back and a bit reserved.

What were your impressions of Pash? Were there really parties or rumours of parties?

What do you think of the poacher story? Do you believe the two men saw Roger being held at gun point?

How close were the woods to the school? Was there any aerial search or extensive search through them?

Finally, what do you think of my theory written above?
 
I believe he was killed soon after he disappeared. I absolutely hate the thought of this. Because I believe he did not commit suicide combined with the fact that he has not been heard from by anybody in 35 years, I simply can not reach any other conclusion that makes sense. Also, it seems this is what LE believes and there is nothing I can think of that could dispute this. This is purely speculation on my part.
Thanks for your answer. To speculate further, do you think he was killed by someone he knew? By a peer? By someone older? Or by someone more distant, who sought the main chance and took it -- someone he knew but, tragically, did not know well enough.
 
First regarding Danaya, I don't follow missing cases much either but I follow this one for obvious reasons. You have a lot of questions which is understandable. I'll try my best to address them. Before doing that, you said in one of your earlier posts "...this is Cedaredge!". Are you personally familiar with the area? That comment sounds like you might be. Just curious.

Regarding Roger - I'd say you have a pretty good handle on it. He was a nice and respectful classmate. Laid back - yes, easy to get along with. Reserved - yes, with respect to casual acquaintances. However, I think he was probably more forthcoming to people that were really close to him. I believe that him and I first met in what was then known as Junior High school however it might have been in our later Elementary grades. It's been a long time and I can't remember precisely. Lets say somewhere between 6th and 8th grade. We were very good friends for the first 2-3 years we knew each other but we became more casual acquaintances by the time he went missing. You know how rapidly circles of friends can change at that age. We always said hello to each other in the halls and had sporadic conversations until he disappeared. Nothing real in-depth though.

Regarding Mr. Pash - I knew him, but not well. I never had him as a teacher and I was not a wrestler. What little I did know - he seemed ok to me - we never had any confrontations. I do think its unfair that he has become so scrutinized as a result of all this however somebody apparently had a reason to report him and LE had some kind of reason to at least pursue that lead. I do not know if there were or were not any actual parties with bad or illegal behavior but there certainly were rumors at the time which obviously continue to this day. At the time I just considered it normal HS gossip and never gave it any thought. Guess I should have paid more attention. I also find it interesting that somebody suspected him enough for the authorities to conduct a ground penetrating investigation in the basement of his former home. I just don't think they would have done that if they didn't feel it was at least a viable lead.

Regarding the poachers - I was gone from the area when that report surfaced. As a result, I do not know who they are or even rumored to be. I do,however, find the story compelling but also feel they might have withheld some of the details. I find it compelling because, if I remember correctly, LE believed it enough to actually interview the 2nd person who confirmed the story of the first. Furthermore, again if memory serves me correctly, a local college (Western State in Gunnison I think) conducted a search of the area this was supposed to have happened in as a result of this report. I can't remember where I read that but I do remember reading about it online - maybe on this forum. Regardless, I don't think these parties would have made those efforts if they didn't give it some validity. Also, I think I read the poachers identified someone who has since left the area. Why would they do that if there wasn't something to their story. Someone mentioned maybe Mr. Pash was who they identified. If true, and this took place soon after Roger disappeared, I honestly don't think Mr. Pash could have been the person in the woods because the time involved during school could not have been accounted for and as such, Mr Pash would have been suspected from day one. I suppose it could have happened on some other day when school wasn't in session. I just don't know - but I do think there might be something to their story because of all the resulting efforts taken by various parties. I will say this - IF their story is true at all, I think they were somehow involved. Like others mentioned earlier, I just don't think any person with a conscience would turn their back on a young man being in such a bad situation. The crime of poaching is just not enough of a reason to not say or do something! IMO

Regarding the proximity of the woods - I assume you are wondering about the location that this poacher incident took place. Again, if I remember correctly that was supposed to be northwest of town. If that is true, intermittent woods would have started about 2-3 miles northwest of were the school was at that time and heavy woods (being the base of the Grand Mesa and onward up to and including the top of Grand Mesa) would have started about 5-6 miles northwest of the same old school. It seems to me that any poacher incident would have happened in what I would consider the heavy woods.

Regarding your theory above - it all seems possible but I can't really strongly lean one way or another. I wish I could. I don't think it involved a girl crush though. I'm sure he was very focused on skiing as well as our upcoming graduation and college. I also don't think he was gay. IMO

There are a few things you mentioned that I would like to speak about.

A lot of the things you mentioned are exactly why I don't believe he committed suicide or voluntarily disappeared. In addition I would like to add two supporting aspects. I think his parents were older than most of the other kids parents and I'm pretty sure he was close to them. I just don't think he would put his parents through such a horrible experience. Also, along with leaving all the things behind that he did, the one that sticks out to me the most is his ski equipment. I can definitely vouch for his passion about skiing - it was genuine. Combine the fact that February is closer to the end of the season than it's beginning with the fact that he took none of his own money just seems out of place to me. I think if he had left voluntarily he would have taken either his ski equipment - or his money so it could be replaced before the season ended. I just don't believe he would have left them both behind.

Its been said he was preoccupied for the month leading up to his disappearance. I tend to believe that could be an indication that he had some knowledge of some kind of crime that had been committed (I'm not saying by him) and he was unsure how to deal with it. I feel as though this preoccupation people said he exhibited could have dealt with whatever/whoever lead to his disappearance.

You mentioned him possibly ending up in a shallow grave. I don't think I agree with that happening for one of the same reasons I don't believe he committed suicide. While Cedaredge is rural, I would not classify it as isolated and desolate. There is always some sort of outdoor sports that take place in that area all year long such as hunting, fishing, snowmobiles, cross country skiing, snowshoeing, riding motorbikes, etc. I believe if his body was left somewhere in the woods, shallow grave or not, somebody would have stumbled upon it somehow in the 35 years since. A bone, skull, shoe, piece of clothing, leather wallet, something! Also, a lot of pets (thinking dogs here) are often times part of the equation in an area such as this as well as with those who engage in the outdoor sports activities just mentioned. I really believe at least a roaming dog would have found his remains which often leads to the owner also finding the same remains. Cedaredge is semi-arid and I think his skeleton should have more longevity than if it were more moist. I believe his remains were likely disposed of in a more permanent manner. IMO - Does this all sound reasonable?

I would like to bring up one final aspect that I don't think has been talked about very much. His sport of ski racing was, at that time, an individual sport that took place completely outside of school and the town of Cedaradge. As such, he frequented ski areas all over western Colorado and also would likely have acquaintances in those areas that people in Cedaredge would know nothing about. I think its entirely possible that he saw or met someone in one of those areas that could have something to do with his disappearance. I believe if he was killed in the Cedaredge area, his body was thoroughly disposed of because of all the local suspicion at the time - any of his remains involving suicide, shallow grave, or simply being left behind, would have been found by now. If he was killed or disposed of elsewhere, I believe an area near a Colorado ski resort is likely and in that case, his remains might have simply been left behind and his skeleton might still be somewhat intact. Unlikely, but more possible than near the Cedaredge area - IMO.
 
Thank you, TruthPursuer! It's so great to finally get a local's perspective on the area and people involved. I have never been to Cedaredge, so I imagined the woods to be vast, secluded and difficult to trek through with thick vegetation. Now I realize, it would have been snowing in Cedaredge, wouldn't it? Would snow make it easier to conceal a body or harder, in your opinion? I think you make an interesting point about Roger meeting someone out of the area on a ski trip. Was it common for kids to befriend people from out of town while away on ski trips? What sort of crimes were there that could have been taking place during a ski trip which Roger may have witnessed-was there much of a drug culture going on back then around Colorado? The only thing is, if Roger were getting his books from his locker and did not make it to his first period class, that means he had to have gone missing sometime around then. How would an outsider be able to get him out of the school? Also, do you know if Pash taught a first period class? That's what makes me wonder. If he were in classes all day, and people witnessed him teaching, it would be a strong alibi if Roger went missing between getting his books and going to class.
 
Thank you for this new information!

I would like to bring up one final aspect that I don't think has been talked about very much. His sport of ski racing was, at that time, an individual sport that took place completely outside of school and the town of Cedaradge. As such, he frequented ski areas all over western Colorado and also would likely have acquaintances in those areas that people in Cedaredge would know nothing about. I think its entirely possible that he saw or met someone in one of those areas that could have something to do with his disappearance. I believe if he was killed in the Cedaredge area, his body was thoroughly disposed of because of all the local suspicion at the time - any of his remains involving suicide, shallow grave, or simply being left behind, would have been found by now. If he was killed or disposed of elsewhere, I believe an area near a Colorado ski resort is likely and in that case, his remains might have simply been left behind and his skeleton might still be somewhat intact. Unlikely, but more possible than near the Cedaredge area - IMO.

With this new information to process, I consider the following:

I agree this is very possible that Roger may have met somebody on one of those ski trips quite outside the local small town realm. I wonder if it was an outsider with whom Roger had some sort of altercation? It seemed that Roger was a good student, committed and responsible, and there probably was only about twenty minutes to at most a half-hour before school was to start for the day. If Roger did not have a first period study hall, and even if he did, twenty minutes would be a very small amount of time for him to leave and not be found ever again. If Roger did not intend to kill himself or start a new life, he certainly must have had an intention to return to class. He even told his locker mate, Mitch "I'll see you in class."

If Roger was taken against his will and killed, I believe that he knew something was about to happen and he had to leave the area quickly. Roger's plan may have been to solve the dispute. High school disputes a lot of times can relate to a lot of things such as money, drugs, girls, or sexual orientation which can cause extreme conflict. If the above information is true, Roger got trapped into something horrible, maybe even witnessed or had critical information about a crime. The perpetrator(s) could have known what was going to happen, didn't like that Roger knew whatever he knew, and silenced him. I think if Roger was murdered, his body was taken to some far away place, a remote location like in the mountains or something where it would likely never be found or was scattered by animals and Roger's remains are sadly, long gone.

Even if Roger did commit suicide, he was smart. and probably could have find a place to do it and have his body never turn up because it would be in a remote area.

Satch
 
So glad TruthPursuer has joined this thread!

I too believe Roger met with foul play. I don't think he killed himself or ran away. He sounds like a young man looking forward to the future with plans in place for it.

It might not have been that hard for someone not from his school to pick him up there. I was in a somewhat small-town high school in the 1980s and there was no security whatsoever. A student could walk straight out any of the doors and hop in their own car or somebody else's car and be gone in a matter of seconds. (I know from my own experiences.) It would be at least until the next class began before anyone would notice a student's absence and even then it might not get checked out with the principal's office or parents til the end of the school day. If you left school before homeroom you'd simply be counted absent and nobody would be looking for you unless you were absent again the next day, then a secretary would probably phone the parents to see whether the absence was excused (due to illness, etc) or unexcused (truancy).

I think maybe he spotted someone in the hallway who motioned to him needing to speak to him, something like that, and he thought he'd be right back. Based on whatever the person said to him, he may have felt it necessary to immediately leave the school with them. And if he got in someone's car his remains could be many miles away.
 
I have been a follower of this thread since it began, and intrigued by the whole case for even longer than that. If someone could grant me a wish, where one case on Websleuths could be magically solved, I would pick Roger's. I don't know what it is exactly, there is just something about his face and story, that makes me so sad for him and his family. I just moved to CO last summer because of a work opportunity. One of the first things I did was Google how close my new home would be to Cedaredge, turns out I would be just on the other side of the Mesa! I think of Roger probably on a daily basis, because there are so many things that just come up in my daily life that make me reflect on him. Went skiing at Powderhorn a couple of times this winter, which made me sad because that was likely Roger's "home" ski hill. Just the other day, I had a patient at work from Cedaredge, Roger's age...was difficult not to ask her if she might have known Roger, but I didn't want to creep her out!

I am planning on going to Cedaredge this Saturday, as we will be doing some hiking on the Mesa. I've gone there before, but it was a Sunday, and the thrift store that currently operates out of Pash's house (of all places!) was closed, and obviously I must get in there! I was going to take pictures, just for my own curiousity/obsession...thought my fellow "SLEUTHIES" might be interested in that sort of thing, as well!
 

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