CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #11

[NothingClever]

. If there's no DNA on the girls no one can prove or dis-prove SW killed them herself. It could also be that he killed the girls earlier and realized time of death would be determined to be much earlier than SW's, so he put them in the oil hoping to hide that fact.

I don’t think DNA would be important if the girls were found in the clothes they went to the party in. Or if their stomach contents show they died in the evening after dinner or possible after the party. IMO those two pieces of evidence would blow his story completely out of the water on their own. No DNA needed.

Now if TOD is not shown to be hours before SW got home then I think DNA would be more important however they were murdered in their home where both parents DNA profiles would be all over to be on them. So I’m not sure how much stock can be put in it. Does anyone else know how that could work?

 

[kkdj]

It's possible CW only told SW he wanted another child so they would "try" more often, but he didn't expect her to get pregnant again with her lupus.

 

[AgeofAquaruis]

Good question and time to repost from earlier:

@Seattle1
Just reading this brings me back. So very happy I finally got out.
My heart hurts for Shannan,and her girls,Nicco, and their loved ones.
If anyone reading this is in this situation, get out, with the shirt on your back. The rest doesn't matter as much as your life. Do not discuss it with your abuser. You don't need their permission,or approval, you don't owe them an explanation, you don't have to 'just talk it out' with them.
Call your local abuse hotline.

I hope it's ok to post this, and I hope it helps the ones who are walking in my shoes.




A Relationship without Empathy (a Narcissist) ...

So much time, energy and emotion is spent trying to understand why emotional manipulators do what they do. The answer has never been a secret. It’s always been in plain sight, but perhapsdue to its simplicity and our inability to relate, weshrug it off and continue the search for some way where we can blame ourselves.

Why do Narcissists make such terrible partners? Why are they so hurtful? The answer is of course empathy, or rather a lack there of.

Empathy is defined as – the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings and thoughts of another, of either the past or present, without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner. – Webster

The DSM tells us that psychopaths lack empathy and that a Narcissist’s ability to feel empathy is impaired. This means that they cannot understand or have concern for the feelings of others.

Why are Narcissist’s so self-centered? – Becauseyour feelings, your needs do not compute. It’s as if they are emotionally color blind,thus, missing colors in their emotional color palette.

What does a relationship look like with someone that lacks empathy?

Lack of Empathy Symptoms in a Romantic Relationship

Everything is always about them. Your thoughts, feelings, needs and wants are not considered, unless they serve a purpose.

Emotional Manipulators ruin the holidays, birthdays or any special event that is important to their partners. They do not like to share attention and therefore, do not care to be a part of anything that doesn’t thrust them in the spotlight. They have an expectation to receive and feel uncomfortable with the concept of giving. They will, on occasion give, but the gift will often be off somehow, usually not exactly what you wanted or asked for. They do the absolute minimum in terms of effort, when it comes to bestowing something that does not directly benefit them.

When their partners are ill or have some type of pain or injury, the Narcissist will view this as an inconvenience to them and either be bothered by it or ignore it. They are not caregivers. They don’t do nurturing – unless it’s to get praise by others – “Look at how great Tom is being while Anne gets over her appendicitis.”

They are never wrong, so don’t expect to get an apology. You will always be wrong, and they will always be the wronged party.

No issue is ever resolved. They thrive in ambiguity. When you can’t pin them down for a time or a decision they can never be held accountable when they disappoint. Disappointment is what they do. Don’t expect to be able to count or rely on them for much, unless there is a benefit to them.

They have a real problem discerning cause and effect. They cannot see a link between their behavior and your reaction. They will look at your reaction to what they’ve done as the problem, rather than their behavior.[CW will never see that what he did was wrong; his vicious act was, and will always be, somebody else's fault. Also, if CW perceived anarcissistic injury from either SW's or his family, (which is a perceived threat to a narcissist's self-esteem or self-worth), it would serve to fuel his fire, and justify his actions. Undoubtedly, CW suffers from more than a personality disorder, but omitting the definitions and discussion of psychopaths and sociopaths here is intentional. I believe it's very serious stuff, and I'm not qualified to present it. Providing link below. All MOO].

Because of their fear of abandonment, they will try to control you through emotional, psychological and sometimes physical abuse. They will not care how this abuse affects you. They will not care if they have traumatized you, hurt you or that they are grounding your self-esteem into dust. The effects of their abuse do not generally even register with them.

Even if a Narcissist targeted you because of your wealth, business, fame, talent or connections, they will quickly start to resent you for these things. They are not supporters. They don’t do the cheerleader role. They will try to assert their control and methodically try to take over and try to take credit for your success, by undermining, demeaning and manipulating.

They will attack you verbally, emotionally sometimes physically if they feel that their ego is being threatened. You will usually be their emotional punching bag when things go wrong for them.

They have no interest in your growth and expansion. They don’t care about what’s best for you, your happiness or success. They will try to suppress these things, to maintain your compliance and their control.

They will make it very unpleasant for you to maintain outside relationships with family and friends. They want you there, focusing and serving them. They don’t want you to get any ideas, any hint of a better life. They don’t want people that love you to reach out and give you options, so any time you want to go out and socialize without them there will be a problem.

They will think nothing of flirting, spending time with or giving attention to another in your presence. They seek to be revered and the center of attention, it will not compute that their behavior is inappropriate or upsetting you. In fact, they will thrive on pitting one against the other, a term called triangulation. They love the feelings and attention that your jealousy gives them.

Nothing is ever equal. On matters that they care about they will insist on complete domination. In matters that don’t, they will not lift a finger to help or compromise.

They will not love you for you. They will constantly be trying to change you. They will criticize you and never let you feel comfortable in your own skin.

Their presence and energy will dominate your space. You won’t be able to work or focus on your own projects.

You will never be able to trust them. You will walk on egg shells because you will never know what’s coming or when the next shoe will drop. There is no relaxing, only high stress and anxiety.

You will never feel truly loved. You will never feel comfortable. You will never feel safe.

Why didn’t your relationship work? Stop searching. Stop looking for a way to make it your fault. If your relationship resembled many of the above behaviors, it’s time to stop obsessing. Stop the FBI analysis and start accepting the truth. Your relationship didn’t work out because you were involved with someone who has a Personality Disorder. It never had a chance.

Fair Use Act Disclaimer

This post is for education purposes only.

Copyright Disclaimer under section 107 of the Copyright Act of 1976, allowance is made for “fair use” for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, education and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.

www.esteemology.com, a website dedicated to educating and healing survivors of abusive relationships.

Psychopaths versus sociopaths: what is the difference?

LATE EDIT: Refresher since CW arrest. The signs are all there. MOO

Home - Dawn
Here is a link to help in Seattle/ King county Washington.

 

[Coolmomof4]

I don’t think DNA would be important if the girls were found in the clothes they went to the party in. Or if their stomach contents show they died in the evening after dinner or possible after the party. IMO those two pieces of evidence would blow his story completely out of the water on their own. No DNA needed.

Now if TOD is not shown to be hours before SW got home then I think DNA would be more important however they were murdered in their home where both parents DNA profiles would be all over to be on them. So I’m not sure how much stock can be put in it. Does anyone else know how that could work?

I totally agree with what you're saying. When I typed that, I was considering what CW may have been thinking. I doubt he would know about stomach contents, or thought about the clothes they were in. Sorry if I was confusing!

 

[Inthedetails]

Glad you got out that! OMG. I also remember seeing this pregnancy was something he convinced SW to do. As she had lupus, this was automatically a high-risk pregnancy. I think you are right and that he was attempting to distract her. I can't even imagine the kind of gaslighting SW may have experienced.

I honestly don't think he was gaslighting her. I don't think the guy is dumb, but I don't see him as sharp either.

He was in financial trouble, and that is seen as a trigger for murder with other men who are faced with the humiliation of not providing for their family. In this case, it's yet another reminder that he wasn't providing for his family since they've had financial problems in the not-so-distant past with nothing to show as progress. That is motive, imo. What perhaps pushed this motive more was the attention he was getting outside his marriage. And, honestly, I think he was shallow. Gaslighting, imo, takes a bit more depth than I think this guy has. jmopinion

(In fairness, I do think he provided for his family, but they lived beyond their means. They could've made it on their combined income and on less that that, imo, just fine. Plenty of people do!)

jmo

 

[PrimeSuspect]

One possibility I've been thinking about involves Bella. He said in the interview that she was a "troublemaker" and just like SW. I wonder if he had trouble with her after the girls returned from 6 weeks away (while he played) and when SW was at her conference. Maybe he lost his patience dealing with the girls on his own after a long break from them, and maybe Bella got on his nerves and he hurt her (killed her). Maybe Cece witnessed it and in a panic he killed her too, and then came up with the story that he would blame SW. So...he waited for her arrival.

Speculation, thinking aloud.

jmo

I agree and think the same. In all CW's lies in the media interviews, the truth seeps through and seems harmless enough until we find out they're dead.

 

[GrilledCheezy]

I believe this is the longest thread I've ever seen on WS!

 

[AgeofAquaruis]

It's possible CW only told SW he wanted another child so they would "try" more often, but he didn't expect her to get pregnant again with her lupus.

Or keeping her pregnant , and having another child would keep her chained to him, and under his control. My ex told me just before I left he would like to have another baby with me. He knew that was how he could control me. Fornutaely I was finally wise to his maniputations.

 

[MerryB]

I honestly don't think he was gaslighting her. I don't think the guy is dumb, but I don't see him as sharp either.

He was in financial trouble, and that is seen as a trigger for murder with other men who are faced with the humiliation of not providing for their family. In this case, it's yet another reminder that he wasn't providing for his family since they've had financial problems in the not-so-distant past with nothing to show as progress. That is motive, imo. What perhaps pushed this motive more was the attention he was getting outside his marriage. And, honestly, I think he was shallow. Gaslighting, imo, takes a bit more depth than I think this guy has. jmopinion

(In fairness, I do think he provided for his family, but they lived beyond their means. They could've made it on their combined income and on less that that, imo, just fine. Plenty of people do!)

jmo

Agree on all counts, Details!

 

[NuttMegg]

On the pregnancy, who knows? It could have been unplanned or possibly planned to "improve" the relationship.

Something about pregnancy seems to unhinge some men. Whether it is the increased responsibility, cost, jealousy that spouse will spend time with baby, I have no clue. But we have seen time and time again, that homocide is the number one killer of pregnant women.

Maybe it is rage against something uncontrollable, that the man could not control.

Remember that guy in Boston who shot his pregnant wife? What is with these guys?

I think it may be the attention the woman gets while pregnant. Supportive attention from so many friends, family, co workers, and society in general, and all of it positive attention, meanwhile "Joe" the guy gets an occasional pat on the back for "good work". Most husbands love to share in the happiness and excitement in growing the family, but I think other less stable men like CW probably deeply resented all the attention on her. Plus some men resent the physical changes in their pregnant wives, a smiley, curvy co worker would be quite a magnet to guys like that.

 

[MerryB]

One possibility I've been thinking about involves Bella. He said in the interview that she was a "troublemaker" and just like SW. I wonder if he had trouble with her after the girls returned from 6 weeks away (while he played) and when SW was at her conference. Maybe he lost his patience dealing with the girls on his own after a long break from them, and maybe Bella got on his nerves and he hurt her (killed her). Maybe Cece witnessed it and in a panic he killed her too, and then came up with the story that he would blame SW. So...he waited for her arrival.

Speculation, thinking aloud.

jmo

It was actually Bella who CW said "was more like me" and CeCe who he attributed negative qualities to, compared to SW, and nicknamed "Rampage."

 

[NuttMegg]

Very good - that could be the link in my totally off the cuff theory. Could a 3 and 4 year old explain something like that to LE? I guess they could say something that makes it hard for CW

Sure they could. Remember the 2 year old who told LE that Mama went away in a rug? That ex cop (Bobby someone?) who killed his ex girlfriend, mother of his kid. And burned her up. IIRC.

 

[idfinch]

I can’t imagine what these days must be like behind bars. Have everything one day and nothing the next.

Yeah, killing 4 people will do that to you. Really throws a hitch in the enjoyment of your daily life.

 

[Inthedetails]

I am on the fence with these three scenarios:
* he planned it all in advance (but was thwarted in the coverup by the friend alerting LE)
* he was enraged by the girls while SW was out of town and he killed them, so then killed SW too
* an argument happened with SW and he killed her, and so then killed the girls too.

IDK. I guess I lean toward the idea that he planned it in advance (and I don't have an idea of how far in advance....could have been after she left for the conference). But, even knowing he put the girls in the tanks, it's hard to accept he PLANNED to do that. IDK.

I'm hopeful autopsies can tell us something, anything.

jmopinion

 

[kkdj]

I am on the fence with these three scenarios:
* he planned it all in advance (but was thwarted in the coverup by the friend alerting LE)
* he was enraged by the girls while SW was out of town and he killed them, so then killed SW too
* an argument happened with SW and he killed her, and so then killed the girls too.

IDK. I guess I lean toward the idea that he planned it in advance (and I don't have an idea of how far in advance....could have been after she left for the conference). But, even knowing he put the girls in the tanks, it's hard to accept he PLANNED to do that. IDK.

I'm hopeful autopsies can tell us something, anything.

jmopinion

Putting the girls in the tanks is one of the things that makes me think this was premeditated. What a great hiding place!

 

[NuttMegg]

It's possible CW only told SW he wanted another child so they would "try" more often, but he didn't expect her to get pregnant again with her lupus.

Or, knowing that it could be very dangerous to her, was willing to encourage her to try, anyway.

 

[NuttMegg]

Yeah, killing 4 people will do that to you. Really throws a hitch in the enjoyment of your daily life.

Sad!

 

[NuttMegg]

Putting the girls in the tanks is one of the things that makes me think this was premeditated. What a great hiding place!

I've thought that too. Maybe just riding around with oil workers someone joked, hey a body in on of those would not be discovered for years. Unless the body blocked the outflow of the tank, why would it be discovered?

 

[Tippy Lynn]

Let’s ignore those who don’t agree. Great way of discussing the case.

It's seems as though you are in the minority on the thread. I applaud you for hanging in there.

 

[dgfred]

Putting the girls in the tanks is one of the things that makes me think this was premeditated. What a great hiding place!

But:
What other choice did he have. Everywhere he drives that truck likely is known. If he deviates from normal drive he is caught. Going to work site at least is feasible to explain. I believe if he could have got SW into a tank she would have been there also.