Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #19

[PommyMommy]

You are correct, and this is what perplexes me. Per the arrest affidavit, CW told LE on Monday that at 5:27 a.m. that morning, he left to check on a job site near Hudson. He did point LE in the right overall direction, but my understanding is SW and the girls' bodies were discovered about 15 miles to the NE of Hudson.

I don't know what to make of this, other than maybe he wasn't aware that GPS would be so exact?

And we don’t know that he didn’t go to Hudson. He said he did, and I kind of doubt it, but maybe he did. Maybe he went there first and tried to dig graves for all three of them, but the ground was too hard and he went on to CERVI to see if he had better luck there. Maybe it’s the opposite of what most of us have assumed, and he ran out of time to dig the grave(s) because the ground was just too hard and that’s why he put the girls in the oil tanks. Has anyone left open that possibility that the oil tanks were his Plan B?

We don’t know what time he got to work or where he reported to work, do we?

 

[DexterMorgan]

Sir. You said your family left you but your wife's car is right there along with the kids car seats.

Care to explain your thoughts sir?

 

[Thepoet]

Exce

Exactly. I mean it was far from a convincing performance, but he committed to it nonetheless under horrendously stressful conditions. I think lying was second nature to him. Makes me think if he could do that, then playing the perfect happy family man for social media — when he was seething inside — would have been no biggie.

Excellent point. Bravo!

 

[katydid23]

This crime is way too disorganized to be planned. This was an impulse with a hurried cover up that was halted in midway through.

People keep repeating how 'stupid' he is when in reality I think he was just reacting to the mess he created.

Planned murders sometimes end up being chaotic and disorganized. That happens when things do not go as planned. Suddenly, the killer has to make decisions on the fly. And things fall apart all around him, as he tries to stick to his plan, that didn't take reality fully into account.

I think the family annihilation was planned, only in the sense that he had fantasized about it, considered it, pondered it. He may have thought of various methods and scenarios, but hadn't really made a precise master plan.

He LOVED that 5 weeks of bachelorhood. So it was really a bummer to be home taking care of the girls that weekend. He knew that would be what his future weekends would be like if they separated/divorced. The rest of the time would be him working keep up with the child support.

When SW returned, she told him she knew about the affair and she wanted him out of the house this week. She was taking the girls to her friends, but he needed to move out, while they figured this out. [ she may have told him that before she returned, in an 'emotional discussion' by phone. If so, he may have started his plans early.]

He felt this was his last chance to act on his plans. She forced his hand. IMO

 

[Mrspratcher]

Tells that he is guilty is vastly different from being "very nervous".

I've suffered anxiety all my life and have been very nervous on multiple occasions. I'm extremely sensitive to it in others, especially when they are performing or speaking in front of others. I immediately notice all the signs.

This guy showed deception and some slight anxiety. But he showed almost zero signs of heightened adrenaline apparent in someone who is highly nervous. This guy's whole family is dead and cops everywhere with dogs and...almost nothing. His detachment and lack of expression were chilling. He looked like a practiced liar to me. Concerned about being caught. Worried. But nowhere close to very nervous:


Former FBI profiler: Suspect's televised plea for slain family's return shows "arrogance"

He looked more nervous in his presentation for his college course. That’s pretty sad.

 

[PommyMommy]

I don't think anyone believes he was or is rational! Rational people don't annihilate their family. Many killers, have in fact, murdered in their homes. MacDonald did. Peterson probably did. And the list goes on. Gitana makes some good points, above, about the location. It's that pesky little flight delay that changed everything. And then NAU changed it all again. And still he was so cool, calm, and collected during the interviews, except when the smirking devil peeked out!

I'm glad you brought up MacDonald. I've been trying to study all of these family annihilators and write a short summary for each. I know many posters don't have time to read long, drawn-out posts, so I'm trying to keep the summaries short, and boy was that ever hard with this one. The similarities are uncanny, down to his grinning for the camera.

In high school, Jeffrey MacDonald was voted both "most popular" and "most likely to succeed,” he was Senior Class President, captain of the football team and won a scholarship to Princeton. After three years at Princeton, he attended and graduated from Northwestern University Medical School, joined the Army where he held the rank of Captain and was assigned as a Group Surgeon.

In February 1970, he violently murdered his wife Colette, his five-year-old daughter, Kimberly, and two-year-old daughter, Kristen. Colette was pregnant with her third child (a son) and had been stabbed 21 times with an ice pick, 16 times with a knife, repeatedly clubbed, and both her arms were broken. Kimberly was also clubbed, and stabbed in the neck eight to ten times. Kristen was stabbed 33 times with a knife and 15 times with an ice pick.

MacDonald claimed that he was awakened by Colette and Kimberly's screams, went to their aid, and was attacked by three male intruders, and a female with long blonde hair, wearing high heeled boots and a white floppy hat partially covering her face who stood nearby with a lighted candle and chanted, "Acid is groovy, kill the pigs." In other words, “the hippies did it.”

Similar to this case, there were no prior reports of domestic violence. And, MacDonald also made media appearances; most notably on The Dick Cavett Show, where he made jokes and complained that the focus of the investigation was on him. This is a clip from the show where he is seen grinning like a Cheshire cat. Jeffrey MacDonald on Dick Cavett

Link to photo: The Jeffrey MacDonald Information Site: Home

Jeffrey R. MacDonald - Wikipedia

 

[Sark06]

That is why I do not think it was a planned event. The timeline was going to be problem either way. I have seen nothing that would make me think this something that had to happen that night. That is why I think it was a spur of the moment crime.

Either way, nothing after the deaths shows there was any planning involved.

I agree, I can't see any thing that shows any kind of plan unless the plan was to get caught. I can't decide if I think the girls were killed first or not, I hope not, although ultimately it's equally horrific. I think he was overwhelmed and out of his depth, lying secrecy, inadequacy all stressers and something erupted and he killed them all. What ever the reason I hope he rots. All JMO

 

[gitana1]

thanks for answering, but this is still where I get very very confused.

How can he be convicted of second-degree murder when he doesn't have that charge? He only has a first degree charge? That's kind of like Caylee Anthony being overcharged and people saying she should have had a lesser charge.

another lawyer said the same thing here, but I still don't understand how first-degree can be a charge, but he be convicted of second-degree.

It is a lesser included crime of first degree murder. So the law allows a jury to find a person guilty of the lesser included crime.

If all the elements (the various factors the jury has to find in order to find a person guilty of a specific charge) of a crime can be satsified by a crime that is not as serious, than the less serious crime is a "lesser included" crime.

So here are the elements of first degree murder in Colorado:

The elements of the crime of murder in the first
degree are:
1. That the defendant,
2. in the State of Colorado, at or about the date and
place charged,
3. after deliberation, and with intent
a. to cause the death of a person other than
himself,
b. caused the death of __________________.
4. [without the affirmative defense in instruction
number
_____ .]

Here is second degree murder:

The elements of the crime of murder in the second
degree are:
1. that the defendant,
2. in the State of Colorado, at or about the date and
place charged,
3. knowingly,
4. caused the death of another person.
5. [without the affirmative defense in instruction
number
_____.]
https://www.theevansfirm.com/documents/CHAPTER_3HomicideandRelatedOffenses.pdf

The term “knowingly” has been held by the Colorado Supreme Court to be a part of “deliberation” or “intentionally”:

To establish second-degree murder, the People needed only to prove that Sepulveda knowingly caused the death of the victim. § 18-3-103(1), 6 C.R.S. (2002).2 A person acts knowingly when he is aware that his conduct is practically certain to cause the result. § 18-1-501(6), 6 C.R.S. (2002). Because the jury found that Sepulveda acted intentionally, or with the conscious objective of causing death, the jury implicitly found that Sepulveda acted knowingly.
FindLaw's Supreme Court of Colorado case and opinions.

As provided in section 18-3-103(1)(a), second degree murder consists of causing the death of a person knowingly. Section 18-1-501(6), C.R.S. 1973 (1978 Repl. Vol. 8), defines knowingly or willfully as follows: "A person acts `knowingly' or `willfully' with respect to conduct or to a circumstance described by a statute defining an offense when he is aware that his conduct is of such a nature or that such circumstance exists. A person acts `knowingly' or `willfully', with respect to a result of his conduct, when he is aware that his conduct is practically certain to cause that result." Upon close scrutiny of the culpability elements of each offense, both of which mandate that the death-causing act be done "knowingly", we are unable to find any rational basis of distinction between first degree murder by extreme indifference under section 18-3-102(1)(d) and second degree murder under section 18-3-103(1)(a). Moreover, the added component of section 18-3-102(1)(d)"under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life" adds nothing to the proscribed conduct that renders it reasonably distinguishable from the statutory definition of murder in the second degree.

Crespin v. People

Crespin v. People
Crespin v. People - 721 P.2d 688

So second degree murder "fits" into first degree. Because all the elements of second are part of first. But first degree has the added element of after deliberation and intent.

So juries may choose a lesser included if they've found only the elements of the lesser crime have been satisfied.

I know it seems confusing!

 

[MyBelle]

This crime is way too disorganized to be planned. This was an impulse with a hurried cover up that was halted in midway through.

People keep repeating how 'stupid' he is when in reality I think he was just reacting to the mess he created.

I agree because of the fact CW took the bodies to his work site even though his truck had GPS and the site had cameras. That wasn't any cover-up at all.

 

[Thepoet]

In regards to the minds of killers, especially family annihilators; I would like to point out MacDonald. He probably killed Collette in a rage and injured Kimberly when she ran into the room. There was a moment of calm. A neighbor thought she heard someone either laughing or crying. It was most likely MacDonald. Sitting in the living room he saw the Esquire magazine with the Manson killings article. His mind began to work. Now, at this point if he had called for help, explained what happened, and explained he was a doctor who had had very little sleep in 36 hours, he probably would have gotten off light. He was a doctor and a Green Beret and it was 1970. Instead he comes up with the crazed hippy story and butchers his 2 year old daughter to make it believable! A very different kind of mind than most of us. CW May not be as intelligent as MacDonald, but his mind is just as warped!

 

[pocketaccent]

@MyBelle asked about family killers hiding the bodies after the murders. Several family annihilators have hidden their families' bodies after murdering them.
Bradford Bishop
Christian Longo
David Anthony
Michael Blagg

Someone else mentioned the sentence for the tamper with bodies charges. Tampering with bodies charges carry a maximum of 12 years. They are unlikely to stack them on top of one another. They often are concurrent.

Colorado Felonies and Sentencing Guidelines

Snipped

Starting around 7:30, when the judge started to read the tampering with bodies charges, CW moves his evil head side to side like he doesn't agree with the charges.

Can you deduce why he would do that? I'm assuming he and his defense team discussed regarding this charge prior to this hearing. What are they up to? Nothing? or something?

The charges read:
"On or about August 13, 2018, Christopher Lee Watts, believing that an official proceeding was pending, in progress, or about to be instituted, and acting without legal right or authority, unlawfully and feloniously willfully destroyed, mutilated, concealed, removed, or altered a human body, part of a human body, or human remains with intent to impair its or their appearance or availability in the official proceedings; in violation of section 18-8-610.5, C.R.S."

 

[katydid23]

That is why I do not think it was a planned event. The timeline was going to be problem either way. I have seen nothing that would make me think this something that had to happen that night. That is why I think it was a spur of the moment crime.

Either way, nothing after the deaths shows there was any planning involved.

I think he felt it had to happen that night, because maybe SW told him she was taking the girls to a friends, while he moved out of the home. She wanted a separation while they figured things out.

If she did that, he would not have access anymore, to carry out his plans to get rid of his family.

 

[MyBelle]

Thanks. This just doesn’t make a ton of sense, atleast from a distance. This would be yet another financial burden, and he was all about it, despite that.

Nothing about this case makes any sense.

 

[MyBelle]

I think he felt it had to happen that night, because maybe SW told him she was taking the girls to a friends, while he moved out of the home. She wanted a separation while they figured things out.

If she did that, he would not have access anymore, to carry out his plans to get rid of his family.

Could SW force CW to move out of the house? Such a demand certainly could trigger rage, imo.

 

[gitana1]

Planned murders sometimes end up being chaotic and disorganized. That happens when things do not go as planned. Suddenly, the killer has to make decisions on the fly. And things fall apart all around him, as he tries to stick to his plan, that didn't take reality fully into account.

I think the family annihilation was planned, only in the sense that he had fantasized about it, considered it, pondered it. He may have thought of various methods and scenarios, but hadn't really made a precise master plan.

He LOVED that 5 weeks of bachelorhood. So it was really a bummer to be home taking care of the girls that weekend. He knew that would be what his future weekends would be like if they separated/divorced. The rest of the time would be him working keep up with the child support.

When SW returned, she told him she knew about the affair and she wanted him out of the house this week. She was taking the girls to her friends, but he needed to move out, while they figured this out. [ she may have told him that before she returned, in an 'emotional discussion' by phone. If so, he may have started his plans early.]

He felt this was his last chance to act on his plans. She forced his hand. IMO

I don't know if or how this would apply but I got to thinking about the term "disorganized killer" as it applies to serial killers. This link is kind of fascinating. The blue collar job, possible same sex activity but typically related to paraphilias. And:
"They are socially inadequate and possess little or no interpersonal skills"
Disorganized offender - Wikipedia

I mean I realize it doesn't all match or relate but it's interesting. They troll for victims. They intend to go find one but aren't good planners.

 

[PommyMommy]

I really disagree. I think he had some tells that betrayed some slight level of anxiety. Like hard swallows. But he was relatively calm as a cucumber.

Very nervous? Not close. That would include signs like dry mouth, which actually appears with just general nervousness, trembling -we saw none- sweating (also none), breathlessness or inability to catch his breath (none), rapid blinking, etc.

I've seen more nerves in people giving a speech or stopped for a traffic violation!

I agree! He smiles, he laughs and his voice is completely flat; emotionless. He doesn't shed a tear. His wife and two children are missing! Of course, he knew where they were, so why would he be upset? He put them right where he wanted them.

 

[PommyMommy]

Maybe he did stop in Hudson but determined that wasn't a good spot so he kept going. He would not be lying to police. They would see he stopped in Hudson. In fact, even better. He stops in Hudson but dumps the bodies elsewhere. He could imagine they would think a disposal of bodies would be at the first stop if anything.

Jinx! I just wrote the same thing, lol.

 

[Thepoet]

I'm glad you brought up MacDonald. I've been trying to study all of these family annihilators and write a short summary for each. I know many posters don't have time to read long, drawn-out posts, so I'm trying to keep the summaries short, and boy was that ever hard with this one. The similarities are uncanny, down to his grinning for the camera.

In high school, Jeffrey MacDonald was voted both "most popular" and "most likely to succeed,” he was Senior Class President, captain of the football team and won a scholarship to Princeton. After three years at Princeton, he attended and graduated from Northwestern University Medical School, joined the Army where he held the rank of Captain and was assigned as a Group Surgeon.

In February 1970, he violently murdered his wife Colette, his five-year-old daughter, Kimberly, and two-year-old daughter, Kristen. Colette was pregnant with her third child (a son) and had been stabbed 21 times with an ice pick, 16 times with a knife, repeatedly clubbed, and both her arms were broken. Kimberly was also clubbed, and stabbed in the neck eight to ten times. Kristen was stabbed 33 times with a knife and 15 times with an ice pick.

MacDonald claimed that he was awakened by Colette and Kimberly's screams, went to their aid, and was attacked by three male intruders, and a female with long blonde hair, wearing high heeled boots and a white floppy hat partially covering her face who stood nearby with a lighted candle and chanted, "Acid is groovy, kill the pigs." In other words, “the hippies did it.”

Similar to this case, there were no prior reports of domestic violence. And, MacDonald also made media appearances; most notably on The Dick Cavett Show, where he made jokes and complained that the focus of the investigation was on him. This is a clip from the show where he is seen grinning like a Cheshire cat. Jeffrey MacDonald on Dick Cavett
View attachment 146269
Link to photo: The Jeffrey MacDonald Information Site: Home

Jeffrey R. MacDonald - Wikipedia

Excellent post. Kudos. Kimberly was hit so hard her face was realigned and brain fluid was found on the wall. Colette's arms were either broken while defending herself and/or her children. MacDonald claims Colette screamed; "Jeff, why are they doing this to me?" A strange thing to yell, but prosecutors pointed out it could have really been; "Jeff, why are you doing this to me?"

The cases are very similar. McDonald was a serial cheater who wanted a new life. CW? Probably.

 

[gitana1]

I'm glad you brought up MacDonald. I've been trying to study all of these family annihilators and write a short summary for each. I know many posters don't have time to read long, drawn-out posts, so I'm trying to keep the summaries short, and boy was that ever hard with this one. The similarities are uncanny, down to his grinning for the camera.

In high school, Jeffrey MacDonald was voted both "most popular" and "most likely to succeed,” he was Senior Class President, captain of the football team and won a scholarship to Princeton. After three years at Princeton, he attended and graduated from Northwestern University Medical School, joined the Army where he held the rank of Captain and was assigned as a Group Surgeon.

In February 1970, he violently murdered his wife Colette, his five-year-old daughter, Kimberly, and two-year-old daughter, Kristen. Colette was pregnant with her third child (a son) and had been stabbed 21 times with an ice pick, 16 times with a knife, repeatedly clubbed, and both her arms were broken. Kimberly was also clubbed, and stabbed in the neck eight to ten times. Kristen was stabbed 33 times with a knife and 15 times with an ice pick.

MacDonald claimed that he was awakened by Colette and Kimberly's screams, went to their aid, and was attacked by three male intruders, and a female with long blonde hair, wearing high heeled boots and a white floppy hat partially covering her face who stood nearby with a lighted candle and chanted, "Acid is groovy, kill the pigs." In other words, “the hippies did it.”

Similar to this case, there were no prior reports of domestic violence. And, MacDonald also made media appearances; most notably on The Dick Cavett Show, where he made jokes and complained that the focus of the investigation was on him. This is a clip from the show where he is seen grinning like a Cheshire cat. Jeffrey MacDonald on Dick Cavett
View attachment 146269
Link to photo: The Jeffrey MacDonald Information Site: Home

Jeffrey R. MacDonald - Wikipedia

I would love to have a list of family annnihilators Who did not commit suicide, to compare with this case. .

 

[katydid23]

Could SW force CW to move out of the house? Such a demand certainly could trigger rage, imo.

I think she could. If she files for divorce and a judge has to decide which one stays in the home, I'd assume it would her her. Being pregnant, and the one who usually cared for the girls every day, from the home.