Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #22

[Shekkiec]

@Mrspratcher in your experience of criminal law and court experience what do you think of the motion yesterday and it’s reasoning ?

 

[MassGuy]

Who is Alexa? Is that the name of the doll?

It’s the Amazon Virtual assistant, like Siri with Apple.

 

[Starkville]

Hi! New here but wanted to just jump right in! If you scroll through SW Facebook page back to around December 2017 there are several posts and comments from friends about them having a 3rd baby and SW consistently said that she did not want to

Not to argue with *you*, but... does Shanann strike ANYone here as a person who’d let her husband dictate what she should do?

In the videos, she is clearly in charge of things in that household. And she had a very good reason not to get pregnant again. Even if Chris whined that she wouldn’t give him another child, everyone knew she had lupus and how could anyone hold her reluctance against her?

No, I think she did exactly what she wanted, and she wanted Nico. Like most everything else, the FB posts were a show.

It’s tragic that he never got to come into the world.

 

[MsBetsy]

This is from DWilson, British criminologist who has researched the field.
main proviso is that this is an area which is evolving, new research. See if you think CW case fits one of these sub-groups. Obviously as it's a developing academic area, not all crimes will fit the patterns.

It is not cut & dried, so to speak, as we can all see from this extract

* "Family annihilators have received little attention as a separate category of killer.....Using newspaper archives to analyse three decades of family annihilation, from 1980 to 2012.....81 per cent of the men attempted suicide after the act,

Family breakup was the most common cause, accounting for 66 per cent of cases, although this included related domestic issues such as access to children. Financial difficulties were the second most commonly cited motive; followed by honour killing and mental illness.

In all of these cases masculinity and perceptions of power, sets the background for the crimes. The family role of the father is central to their ideas of masculinity and the murders represent a last ditch attempt to perform a masculine role.

Categorising the Killers: Four Types of Family Annihilator

• Self-righteous: The killer seeks to locate blame for his crimes upon the mother who he holds responsible for the breakdown of the family. This may involve the killer phoning his partner before the murder to explain what he is about to do. For these men, their breadwinner status is central to their idea of the ideal family.
• Disappointed: This killer believes his family has let him down or has acted in ways to undermine or destroy his vision of ideal family life. An example may be disappointment that children are not following the traditional religious or cultural customs of the father. ( eg honour killings)

• Anomic: In these cases the family has become firmly linked in the mind of the killer to the economy. The father sees family as the result of his economic success, allowing him to display his achievements. However, if the father becomes an economic failure, he sees the family as no longer serving this function.
• Paranoid: Those who perceive an external threat to the family. This is often social services or the legal system, which the father fears will side against him and take away the children. Here the murder is motivated by a twisted desire to protect the family.
  
  
• Characteristics of family killers revealed by first classification study | Birmingham City University

Interesting. Sounds like Self Righteous to me.

 

[Allabouttrial]

It came from here:

Investigators’ worst fears were realized when they located the bodies of Shanann’s two little girls nearby, submerged in oil tanks. It took hours to drain the tanks of their thick, dark oil in order to recover Bella, 4 and Celeste, 3.

Friends Called Cops After Chris Watts’ Wife and Daughters Disappeared

Thank you!

 

[MassGuy]

How high are the tanks? Are there ladders?

There are ladders, or stairs, but I’m not as familiar with the specifics as some of the people on here. I’m sure someone with knowledge will chime in.

 

[Hazelnutty]

Chris Watts case: DNA evidence could prove to be 'smoking gun' if judge grants prosecution's motion

 

[MyBelle]

We don’t know that he worked specifically on those tanks, or that his prints would have reason to be there (other than body disposal). Unless you know something we don’t, we haven’t heard specific evidence of his having worked on those tanks, and having a reason to open them.

And why does the DA need to prove to the jury that his prints are on the tanks? I think it is far more likely the DA's request is tied to autopsy photos.

 

[MassGuy]

And why does the DA need to prove to the jury that his prints are on the tanks? I think it is far more likely the DA's request is tied to autopsy photos.

Both are possible. Like I said before, in case he recants his confession, you want that physical evidence. You don’t not collect evidence just because someone has confessed.

 

[Bill Carson]

I too am in this boat. I need more information. I HATE labels because we are all different. The biggy for me is that if we are going to take someones liberty (or life) away from them, then we need to be absolutely certain. I just do not have enough information at the moment to condemn anyone. I am forever haunted by a UK case, Sally Clarke (RIP)- wrongful conviction - and it destroyed her and her families lives.

BBM

Respectfully, Nikynoo--

The law does not require absolute certainty; it requires certainty beyond a reasonable doubt.

What is reasonable doubt? I'm a lawyer and I still haven't figured it out.

We won't ever have absolute certainty in this case because we weren't there when the killings took place and we can't know what CW was thinking. Of course, we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg of the evidence for this crime, and before it is all said and done, we may feel we know with absolute certainty that CW is guilty---it is a very real possibility that the text messages and the electronic evidence, the autopsy, fingerprints, dna, and gps tracking evidence may all point to CW's premeditation, planning, and guilt. But we will have to wait for that.

But I will say (and I'm warning you in advance that this opinion may seem as cold as hell), that there are some situations where the circumstantial and coincidental evidence is so overwhelming and so prejudicial that the defendant deserves to die regardless of his actual guilt, but because of his proximity to horrible events and circumstances.

This may be such a case.

 

[Starkville]

I have not followed any family annihilator cases.

Ann Rule would have delved into every detail, But she is gone. I don’t know if there are any authors that match her ability.

Anyway, with these other monsters, were there no signs at all? No hindsight?

I only know a few people that I have diagnosed (with no credentials at all ) as psychopaths.Some people think these people are fabulous. But others of us see them for what they are.

Not one person, that we know of, saw behind the mask?

To me, SW made me cringe. Telling everyone in her FB world that he was stupid or inept bothered me. I cannot believe anyone thinks being called stupid in front of others is ok.

I originally thought he planned it out. Now I wonder if she didn’t come home and complain about something and he lost it. But why the kids?

And no,I am not blaming her. Just a possible scene. A way relationships go really wrong.

The only one that makes sense is that he wanted a free and clear life. Why that night of all nights?

Agree with everything you said.

 

[MsBetsy]

It’s the Amazon Virtual assistant, like Siri with Apple.

Oh! No wonder. Not a computer person. I thought maybe it was the name of the huge freaky doll hiding behind the door in the video.

 

[Charlot123]

Ding ding ding
Imo

ETA I'm wondering if the mode of conception was traditional...

If not traditional, it opens the door to a slew of possibilities...

 

[cailleach]

G'Evening Sleuthers! The thread was closed down by the time I came on to post about the defense accusing LE or the prosecutors of leaking information. I'm sure that's probably been covered here today. It would appear to be a sign the defense knows their current theory of defense is going down like the Hindenburg. There are far too many holes in their premise for it to be feasible to any empaneled jury. MOO

I see we have a new VI that's supporting CW. <modsnipped: random speculation> My understanding is we can either take what is shared as reliable information or we can choose to <modsnipped> weigh their input appropriately. If I'm incorrect, someone please correct me.

 

[MsBetsy]

There are ladders, or stairs, but I’m not as familiar with the specifics as some of the people on here. I’m sure someone with knowledge will chime in.

I was looking for a possible explanation as to why he did not put his wife's body in them as well.

 

[Jinkasaurus]

It came from here:

Investigators’ worst fears were realized when they located the bodies of Shanann’s two little girls nearby, submerged in oil tanks. It took hours to drain the tanks of their thick, dark oil in order to recover Bella, 4 and Celeste, 3.

Friends Called Cops After Chris Watts’ Wife and Daughters Disappeared

Thanks. I've seen the aerial drone video of the tanks and they are extremely tall. If the children were put in the tall tanks and not the open one that is much, much lower next to them, I'm surprised they would be able to drain them in just a few hours. Maybe one of the folks who knows about tanks could comment - can't recall their name.

 

[Shekkiec]

Both are possible. Like I said before, in case he recants his confession, you want that physical evidence. You don’t not collect evidence just because someone has confessed.

Fingerprints on tanks would be irrelevant if he canfessed to disposal of bodies right ?

 

[MassGuy]

Fingerprints on tanks would be irrelevant if he canfessed to disposal of bodies right ?

They would be irrelevant as he’s admitted to as much. If he recants his confession, as defendants are apt to do, the DA would want that evidence.

 

[Shekkiec]

I was looking for a possible explanation as to why he did not put his wife's body in them as well.

IMO I’m wondering if he wanted them separate for a reason ...

 

[cottonweaver]

Interesting. Sounds like Self Righteous to me.

IDK Betsy, as far as NUA & Isalybra, Amanda Thayer say - no plan to separate by SW was known to any of them. ( We only have the salon worker so far iirc) Trinket also says no plan known.

we've had a lot of these Self Righteous category crimes in the UK.

( Typically it's been where the partner wants to move or actually manages to leave. Sometimes it's been a punishment to the ex - to kill the kids and as it says, most kill themselves.
We have had cases of men doing this part too: "This may involve the killer phoning his partner before the murder to explain what he is about to do." And those where just all the children are killed as revenge.
If SW did not want to separate, IDSee how it fits, or how any of them fit this case.

 

[Kensie]

I wonder if CW knew about the doctor appt. Maybe, he had selective hearing. Seems weird to murder someone when they had such an important appointment. Her friends would want to know how it went.

 

[cottonweaver]

Chris Watts case: DNA evidence could prove to be 'smoking gun' if judge grants prosecution's motion

and here's the link
https://www.courts.state.co.us/user...OF CRIMINAL PROCEDURE, RULE 16 II (a) (1).pdf