Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #22

[MassGuy]

Do we know for sure that they were in 2 separate tanks?

We do. That has been confirmed.

 

[Allabouttrial]

That's so disturbing. I'll never get the images of that out of my head. (The images my mind made in the first place--of course) like I said yesterday it's the stuff of nightmares. I really would love to know his thought process with that.

Sorry

 

[cottonweaver]

Let me try to answer your question. (Sorry in advance if this answer gets too long.)

I used to do some criminal defense work back in the early part of my career. I practiced in a rural area, and if you were an attorney practicing in that county and you did any trial work and you didn't work for the district attorney's office, then you were expected to take court-appointed cases representing indigent criminal defendants. So it wasn't a big part of my practice, but I did enough to get my feet wet. Since I was taking criminal court appointments anyway, I also did some private pay criminal defense cases.

I digress, but I will say that part of the reason that I became a lawyer in a rural area was the influence of To Kill a Mockingbird and the ideal of Atticus Finch.

Some of the differences between private and public defenders (PDs) are small and some are large. We presume both are competent and want to do a good job. Court-appointed public defenders are paid a small fraction of the money demanded by private criminal defense attorneys. For instance, (this information is old) I might have charged a private-pay client $2,500 to defend a DWI case; whereas in a court-appointed case, the county might pay me $500.

Today, many areas, especially more populous areas, are served by public defenders offices, which are attorneys hired by an agency of the county or state and paid a salary with some benefits. (I need to look up whether PDs are paid as much as ADAs with similar experience. They should be!) But these PDs have a caseload: that is, a number of cases that they are assigned at one time. Generally, they have lots of cases and lots of clients to represent, so it is physically impossible to spend much time with any one client. Private attorneys have the luxury of spending more time because they have fewer cases, and that's one reason they charge more.

In a high-profile case like the present one, I'm sure several PD attorneys, investigators and support staff are assigned to this case. I cannot say how many other cases those attorneys may have on their caseload, but it is understood that a significant amount of time will need to be devoted to this case.

Not sure about Colorado, but in the state where I used to practice, if the case was a "capital murder" case (meaning that the punishment range included the possibility of the death sentence), then defense attorneys on those cases had to be specially certified for competency.

The defense's job is to 1) ensure the defendant gets a fair trial; 2) obtain a not guilty verdict if possible; and 3) obtain the lowest sentence possible.

The defendant gets to direct the strategy of the defense; meaning, he gets to decide whether he is going to testify; the nature of the defense; etc. The lawyer, with the assistance of the client, makes what we could call "tactical" decisions; such as what witnesses to interview, subpoena to testify, what questions to ask at trial, etc.

The defense lawyer has two loyalties here. He is an officer of the court, which means he can't lie or mislead the court or jury (he cannot put on evidence that he knows is false), and he is bound by the law and the rules of procedure and evidence. He also has a duty to inform the client of the law and the facts, so the client can make informed decisions; and he is bound to follow the defendant's stated strategy, if he can do so within the bounds of the law and ethics.

Some attorneys say you shouldn't ask the client if he is guilty or not because you don't really want to know the answer to that question. I always asked my client for their version of the facts, and I took them as true unless my common sense told me otherwise. If confronted with a situation where the client's story doesn't seem possible, then I would ask him about it (not grill). You always want your defense to seem as plausible as possible. You can't build a credible case around something that is ridiculous (your word).

In the end, I wasn't always 100% comfortable practicing criminal defense because it didn't set well with me having to establish reasonable doubt when I didn't believe it myself. There's a line there somewhere, and I wasn't comfortable stirring up confusion when it didn't seem appropriate. (Other defense attorneys can chime in here---lots of them do a great job without it bothering their consciences, and they do it ethically.)

I hope that helps. Sorry so long.

Edited for clarification

Very informative thank you.
Might be worth splitting and re-posting again cause there's a lot of valuable info here.

I've noticed across many threads that posters are very cynical about the tactics & lack of scruples from Def lawyers ( perhaps due to the high profile cases followed here, private attorneys not PDs) so I note with interest this quote, amongst others:

'The defense lawyer has two loyalties here. He is an officer of the court, which means he can't lie or mislead the court or jury (he cannot put on evidence that he knows is false), and he is bound by the law and the rules of procedure and evidence.
He also has a duty to inform the client of the law and the facts, so the client can make informed decisions; and he is bound to follow the defendant's stated strategy, if he can do so within the bounds of the law and ethics."

 

[Mrspratcher]

What I’m wondering is if the forensics indicates she may have had a hand in killing her children (which I doubt), then the defense will claim self defense on behalf of another, an affirmative defense; in which case the burden of proving it didn’t happen as the defendant said falls on the prosecution. Perhaps one of the legal minds here could weigh on on that.

The burden of proving an affirmative defense would fall on the party raising the defense. If CW raises a defense of others defense, he would have the burden of proving it.

 

[Layla123]

AB 9/13/18 Part 2
1. Played NU’s tearful live fb video. SM have been ferocious to NU. Bullies have gone after her. If not for NU, CW could have had a lot more time to cover his secrets. CW had a lot of secrets.
2. Defense is upset leaks are tainting jury pool
3. DA said C.W. started it by sending so much information out to public.
4. In 2016 1600 women were murdered. 55% were murdered by their husbands, or boyfriends. 20% were pregnant. Obvious that LE is going to look there first every time there’s a new female murder.
5, Defense needs to have clean hands, too.
6. What is it about CW’s hands, what information can they gain? They will know how big CWs hands are, and know if they match marks on children’s necks. Not a perfect technique. Parts of palm and fingers will leave bruises. Defense needs to turn requested prints and photos over.
7. Why now? There are standard booking procedures, prints and photos go beyond what is normally done at intake.
8. If Defense is suggesting there’s a leak, is this a tactic of defense to sidetrack DA’s Office? It is a unique request. Defense should have left it to court. It fell flat. Defense is trying to protect their client. Defense may be trying to make DA’s Office look corrupt and incompetent.
9.Still no COD.
Viewer Questions
1. If NU didn’t report SW missing how long would it have been before CW reported her missing? It would have been found out very quickly. Lots of friends and family would have been concerned.
2. Can they find out if kids were dead before they were put in oil? Yes, COD would be either strangulation or drowning.
3. If C.W. had seen SW strangling on baby monitor why didn’t he try CPR or call 911, why didn’t he try to resuscitate them? In the throes of an event you would be very surprised what individuals reactions are. We’re looking at forensics, too. What’s on the baby monitor. Evidence needs to be reviewed. A juror would have a tough time getting past CW’s actions. Very compelling fact. Defense will have to look at C.W., who is he? How does he react? Is he impulsive?
4. Sociopaths don’t become sociopaths overnight. Something had been very dark inside that man since childhood. They know how to blend in and act normal...and people lose weight all the time. People also cheat...however sane folks don’t kill their entire family. There’s much deeper issues here? Dr. J. and Mr. Hyde’s walk among us every day. CW may be the type of guy who can charm his way into any situation, and then when it doesn’t go his way, he just snaps on a dime. We just don’t know.
5. Is it just me, or does anyone else think C.W. was so sloppy possibly because when his wife was dropped off from the airport from her girlfriend from the business trip...the next day NU filed a missing person’s Report...so he didn’t have as much time to discard evidence as the police were at his house so quickly? He was at work the next day. Thought he would get home before anyone knew. Trash day was Tuesday so everything would have been taken away.

 

[NuttMegg]

Do we know for sure that they were in 2 separate tanks?

From the affidavit:

 

[MerryB]

He already confessed he put the girls in the tanks. So his prints would be there unless he wore gloves. But, so what?

I understood that to mean they were testing for prints from the girls’ necks. For example, is it’s SW’s prints & not CW’s, or the marks don’t match the size of a man’s hands, that could bolster his version of what happened.

 

[Shekkiec]

Hi! New here but wanted to just jump right in! If you scroll through SW Facebook page back to around December 2017 there are several posts and comments from friends about them having a 3rd baby and SW consistently said that she did not want to

She literally posted on May 8 2018 she wants to try . This was within a four day window of getting pregnant . The comments in her post were “ are you trying to tell us something “ “ go for it” when she announced her pregnancy on June 11.. responses were of shock it is as if she was pregnant all ready “ were you lying before ?” So I asked the dr on here if conception could be that quick bc she stated “I was told I could not have kids”. But regardless she got pregnant and CW said “ you always get what you want on video of pregnancy

 

[MsBetsy]

I'm looking for it but cannot find it. You're saying SW says she did NOT want a baby on her SM?

That contradicts what our insider has said as well as other statements that she wanted a lot of kids.

 

[cottonweaver]

I did read in the affidavit that they had to retrieve the girls by draining the tanks and taking them out from the bottom.

I also had a chat with a local oil worker who said the same. sorry, can't post screenshots

 

[nwmouse]

AB 9/13/18 Part 2
1. Played NU’s tearful live fb video. SM have been ferocious to NU. Bullies have gone after her. If not for NU, CW could have had a lot more time to cover his secrets. CW had a lot of secrets.
2. Defense is upset leaks are tainting jury pool
3. DA said C.W. started it by sending so much information out to public.
4. In 2016 1600 women were murdered. 55% were murdered by their husbands, or boyfriends. 20% were pregnant. Obvious that LE is going to look there first every time there’s a new female murder.
5, Defense needs to have clean hands, too.
6. What is it about CW’s hands, what information can they gain? They will know how big CWs hands are, and know if they match marks on children’s necks. Not a perfect technique. Parts of palm and fingers will leave bruises. Defense needs to turn requested prints and photos over.
7. Why now? There are standard booking procedures, prints and photos go beyond what is normally done at intake.
8. If Defense is suggesting there’s a leak, is this a tactic of defense to sidetrack DA’s Office? It is a unique request. Defense should have left it to court. It fell flat. Defense is trying to protect their client. Defense may be trying to make DA’s Office look corrupt and incompetent.
9.Still no COD.
Viewer Questions
1. If NU didn’t report SW missing how long would it have been before CW reported her missing? It would have been found out very quickly. Lots of friends and family would have been concerned.
2. Can they find out if kids were dead before they were put in oil? Yes, COD would be either strangulation or drowning.
3. If C.W. had seen SW strangling on baby monitor why didn’t he try CPR or call 911, why didn’t he try to resuscitate them? In the throes of an event you would be very surprised what individuals reactions are. We’re looking at forensics, too. What’s on the baby monitor. Evidence needs to be reviewed. A juror would have a tough time getting past CW’s actions. Very compelling fact. Defense will have to look at C.W., who is he? How does he react? Is he impulsive?
4. Sociopaths don’t become sociopaths overnight. Something had been very dark inside that man since childhood. They know how to blend in and act normal...and people lose weight all the time. People also cheat...however sane folks don’t kill their entire family. There’s much deeper issues here? Dr. J. and Mr. Hyde’s walk among us every day. CW may be the type of guy who can charm his way into any situation, and then when it doesn’t go his way, he just snaps on a dime. We just don’t know.
5. Is it just me, or does anyone else think C.W. was so sloppy possibly because when his wife was dropped off from the airport from her girlfriend from the business trip...the next day NU filed a missing person’s Report...so he didn’t have as much time to discard evidence as the police were at his house so quickly? He was at work the next day. Thought he would get home before anyone knew. Trash day was Tuesday so everything would have been taken away.

Thanks for this great summary!

 

[Ljc4]

I'm looking for it but cannot find it. You're saying SW says she did NOT want a baby on her SM?

Yes, there was a picture or video of bella taking care of her doll and people were asking about them having a third baby and SW replied with GIF's saying no way. I will see if I can find it again and post the exact date

 

[MerryB]

From the affidavit:

Thank you.

 

[katydid23]

The burden of proving an affirmative defense would fall on the party raising the defense. If CW raises a defense of others defense, he would have the burden of proving it.

But can it just be left as reasonable doubt, even if they don't actually prove it?

Like Baez asserted that Casey's Dad was responsible for her child's death...no proof offered really, but the jury bought it after hearing it in Opening Statements...

I worry that if the defense just throws it out there during OS, it will linger and taint the rest of the proceedings..

 

[MyBelle]

His confession is irrelevant to the collection of evidence. We know he touched those tanks because he confessed to it. But you still do your due dilligence as members of law enforcement. You don’t give him an ounce of wiggle room, especially in case he withdraws his confession.

What does evidence his prints were on the tanks prove? CW worked there. Why would the DA need to prove that to a jury?

 

[nwmouse]

That contradicts what our insider has said as well as other statements that she wanted a lot of kids.

Yeah, I'm confused!

 

[Gardenista]

Hi! New here but wanted to just jump right in! If you scroll through SW Facebook page back to around December 2017 there are several posts and comments from friends about them having a 3rd baby and SW consistently said that she did not want to

TY for this. It bolsters her comment that he talked her into it. So sick.

 

[Trinket78]

Trinket, Do you think Shanann found out that night through their computer or his phone that he had an affair with a man and she flipped out? He doesn't seem like the type that would do this so is it alleged or real??

I don’t believe anything about the male lover.

 

[cottonweaver]

Hi! New here but wanted to just jump right in! If you scroll through SW Facebook page back to around December 2017 there are several posts and comments from friends about them having a 3rd baby and SW consistently said that she did not want to

HI LJ and welcome
You can link the page here that you have from December, so that members can check it out but ToS means we can't have screengrabs posted.

Edit: In fact it might be wise to post that link, just seeing the responses now. We try and not take info at face value on WS in order to come to any judgments.

 

[nwmouse]

I don’t believe anything about the male lover.

From what I've seen of TB's attention-seeking behavior and "odd" (putting it mildly) SM/interviews I tend to agree with you.