GUILTY CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *CW LWOP* #72

[NuttMegg]

Cadle should publish a second edition entitled "Christopher...just the letters". Publish all the letters, with maybe just a sentence introducing the letter...."Herein Christopher mentions killing his daughters twice"....
Leaving out her purple prose and sentences like, paraphrased "studies have shown that many dead people knew they were going to die ahead of time".

 

[beandawgs]

I saw an interview with Chris Watts' parents and was just appalled by their degradation of Shanann - she's freaking dead and your son killed her along with two innocent children - but IMHO if there's any question about Chris' personality and morality now we know where he gets it from. Like parents, like son.

 

[BeachSky]

I saw an interview with Chris Watts' parents and was just appalled by their degradation of Shanann - she's freaking dead and your son killed her along with two innocent children - but IMHO if there's any question about Chris' personality and morality now we know where he gets it from. Like parents, like son.

IMO it’s the MatriNarc giving the scorched-earth speech.
Burning everything in her path to restore —>HER<— reputation.
Indeed, CW learned at the knee of this person.


MOO

 

[NoClouseau]

Maybe we will never hear anything from the murderer's side of the family again? Maybe they could look inwards not strike outwards.

 

[Colorado303]

I wish someone would clear this up for me (senior moments? I just don't remember seeing proof):
1) any part of the autopsies were withheld except yes the photos
2) CW signed his plea deal, and then some time after that he signed some side deal to withhold certain of the kids' medical records. and, if true,
3) he wouldn't let anyone see them

Reisch says that any agreements to withhold docs, or whatever item, during a plea deal would be listed ON THE PLEA DEAL, not signed some other day afterwards. I don't remember seeing anything like that on the document circulated after his plea deal that showed all of the murders and other felonies he had admitted to have committed.
So where is all this coming from about withheld HIPAA records? And the rest I listed above? Why would he have the power to withhold any records at all?

Prior to his plea deal when there was still possibility of a trial his attorney filed a petition requesting medical records be sealed, I think for both CW and the girls. I remember it because there was a lot of speculation and discussion among those who knew the family as to why he’d make that request. I really don’t remember if the court turned down the request or if he pled guilty before a ruling. The plea came relatively soon after the request and there was add’l speculation that he pled at least in part so whatever he was trying to hide never came to light.

I offer this merely to address the question of whether he requested the girls medical records be sealed. The speculation was just people who knew them trying to make sense of the situation. We all had our hypotheses and because he pled we’ll never know. Repeating them would just be fanning disturbing rumors, all of which would be humiliating to CW. However, I will say wanting medical records sealed to hide CW abused the girls wasn’t high on anyone’s list. Before that horrible night I don’t think CW ever abused them in any way.

Nor did Shan’ann. Mama Watt’s alleged contention he wanted to hide SW’s abuse of the girls is ludicrous. (I say alleged because I have not and will never read a thing that waste of a woman creates). Not only would SW never hurt her babies, if she had he wouldn’t protect her. Yes, he originally said he dumped his daughters in oil tanks to “protect” his wife’s memory but falsely accusing her of killing them negates that theory. It’s complete hogwash.

If there is a Hell, Chris isn’t the only Watts with a spot waiting for them. Of that I’m certain.

 

[molly1255]

Prior to his plea deal when there was still possibility of a trial his attorney filed a petition requesting medical records be sealed, I think for both CW and the girls. I remember it because there was a lot of speculation and discussion among those who knew the family as to why he’d make that request. I really don’t remember if the court turned down the request or if he pled guilty before a ruling. The plea came relatively soon after the request and there was add’l speculation that he pled at least in part so whatever he was trying to hide never came to light.

I offer this merely to address the question of whether he requested the girls medical records be sealed. The speculation was just people who knew them trying to make sense of the situation. We all had our hypotheses and because he pled we’ll never know. Repeating them would just be fanning disturbing rumors, all of which would be humiliating to CW. However, I will say wanting medical records sealed to hide CW abused the girls wasn’t high on anyone’s list. Before that horrible night I don’t think CW ever abused them in any way.

Nor did Shan’ann. Mama Watt’s alleged contention he wanted to hide SW’s abuse of the girls is ludicrous. (I say alleged because I have not and will never read a thing that waste of a woman creates). Not only would SW never hurt her babies, if she had he wouldn’t protect her. Yes, he originally said he dumped his daughters in oil tanks to “protect” his wife’s memory but falsely accusing her of killing them negates that theory. It’s complete hogwash.

If there is a Hell, Chris isn’t the only Watts with a spot waiting for them. Of that I’m certain.

I haven't been able to find anything in MSM that states specifically whose medical records were requested to be sealed.

I've always thought CW received a really bad diagnosis by a psychologist (s) when he was in the Weld Co. jail. Not a diagnosis of mental illness, which may have helped him, but a diagnosis of being in the extreme end of Cluster B personality disorder.

That's JMO and I could be wrong, but I recall his visitors list at the Weld Co. jail was kept secret and I imagine his attorneys had him evaluated by a psychologist (s) with the hope of possibly pursuing an insanity defense.

JMO

 

[Nikynoo]

I haven't been able to find anything in MSM that states specifically whose medical records were requested to be sealed.

I've always thought CW received a really bad diagnosis by a psychologist (s) when he was in the Weld Co. jail. Not a diagnosis of mental illness, which may have helped him, but a diagnosis of being in the extreme end of Cluster B personality disorder.

That's JMO and I could be wrong, but I recall his visitors list at the Weld Co. jail was kept secret and I imagine his attorneys had him evaluated by a psychologist (s) with the hope of possibly pursuing an insanity defense.

JMO

A motion was filed by the defence to request leave from the court to file a motion under seal as it related to HIPPA (seehttps://www.courts.state.co.us/user...al_District/caseofinterest/2018CR2003/D40.pdf ) .

The court granted an order allowing the motion to be filed under seal (see https://www.courts.state.co.us/user...rict/caseofinterest/2018CR2003/Order C 21.pdf)
No further documents were released in relation to this motion.

I think the assumption was it was in relation to medical records, but the motion nor the order stated whose records were subject to the motion.

I do not know enough about HIPPA to be able to make a decision one way or the other. Perhaps someone here with knowledge of HIPPA could advise? Would CW have access to medical records of all of the victims or just the girls (being that he was their parent), or just his own?

 

[Thepoet]

What Are Family Annihilators? What Drove Chris Watts To Kill His Family?

Interesting article.

 

[NuttMegg]

What Are Family Annihilators? What Drove Chris Watts To Kill His Family?

Interesting article.

From your link: "The book Familicidal Hearts: The Emotional Styles of 211 Killers, claims that this type of killer often feels that they've failed to be a man, according to societal standard of manhood.

"Many times it's for financial problems,” Garrett told ABC. “And the belief is that men, in particular, will kill their family because they have lost their ability to support them. And it gets into the male ego identity.”
.................................
I have believed since the week of Aug 13 2018 when I started posting here, that Chris Watts' family annihilation was due in large part to Shan'ann nearing or passing his earning potential. She had all the rest: the drive & energy, the can-do spirit, the all-important supportive friendships, the loving family, the mutual adoration with her kids, while Chris was an empty shell with his only claim to self worth being that he was THE breadwinner.

I don't think this factor can be underestimated. There are crude terms which sum up this dilemma facing some men, albeit in their own minds....refers to figuratively losing a part of one's anatomy, the family jewels.

It wasn't the finances of the FAMILY, it was that she far surpassed him in all categories except for mastering a 12" crescent wrench, and now she was making a lot of money too.

 

[Colorado303]

A motion was filed by the defence to request leave from the court to file a motion under seal as it related to HIPPA (seehttps://www.courts.state.co.us/user...al_District/caseofinterest/2018CR2003/D40.pdf ) .

The court granted an order allowing the motion to be filed under seal (see https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/19th_Judicial_District/caseofinterest/2018CR2003/Order C 21.pdf)
No further documents were released in relation to this motion.

I think the assumption was it was in relation to medical records, but the motion nor the order stated whose records were subject to the motion.

I do not know enough about HIPPA to be able to make a decision one way or the other. Perhaps someone here with knowledge of HIPPA could advise? Would CW have access to medical records of all of the victims or just the girls (being that he was their parent), or just his own?

Thank you for tracking down the links!

In the filing, attorney’s support point #3 points out that HIPAA privacy still applies even after the privilege holder has died. IMO this indicates the sealed motion includes the girls and/or SW’s medical records, not just CW’s.

 

[molly1255]

A motion was filed by the defence to request leave from the court to file a motion under seal as it related to HIPPA (seehttps://www.courts.state.co.us/user...al_District/caseofinterest/2018CR2003/D40.pdf ) .

The court granted an order allowing the motion to be filed under seal (see https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/19th_Judicial_District/caseofinterest/2018CR2003/Order C 21.pdf)
No further documents were released in relation to this motion.

I think the assumption was it was in relation to medical records, but the motion nor the order stated whose records were subject to the motion.

I do not know enough about HIPPA to be able to make a decision one way or the other. Perhaps someone here with knowledge of HIPPA could advise? Would CW have access to medical records of all of the victims or just the girls (being that he was their parent), or just his own?

My understanding of HIPAA is that CW would have had access to his daughters' medical records and possibly to Shanann's medical records unless Shanann specifically assigned someone other than CW as her medical proxy.

 

[molly1255]

From your link: "The book Familicidal Hearts: The Emotional Styles of 211 Killers, claims that this type of killer often feels that they've failed to be a man, according to societal standard of manhood.

"Many times it's for financial problems,” Garrett told ABC. “And the belief is that men, in particular, will kill their family because they have lost their ability to support them. And it gets into the male ego identity.”
.................................
I have believed since the week of Aug 13 2018 when I started posting here, that Chris Watts' family annihilation was due in large part to Shan'ann nearing or passing his earning potential. She had all the rest: the drive & energy, the can-do spirit, the all-important supportive friendships, the loving family, the mutual adoration with her kids, while Chris was an empty shell with his only claim to self worth being that he was THE breadwinner.

I don't think this factor can be underestimated. There are crude terms which sum up this dilemma facing some men, albeit in their own minds....refers to figuratively losing a part of one's anatomy, the family jewels.

It wasn't the finances of the FAMILY, it was that she far surpassed him in all categories except for mastering a 12" crescent wrench, and now she was making a lot of money too.

I agree with you. I think his envy of Shanann grew with her success until his ego could no longer handle it.

 

[Thepoet]

Something has been bothering me, the title of the book; “Letters from Christopher”! Was that designed to soften the impact of the horror and “humanize” CW? The title sounds more like a memoir or a romance, not the horror story it truly is. He’s Chris, not Christopher! If Cadle had written a book about Ted Bundy would it have been; “Letters from Theodore”? I’m really surprised that no one has commented on it! How about; “Letters from an Adulterous Family Annihilator”? That would be a more accurate title! Sorry, but it bothers me.

 

[NuttMegg]

Something has been bothering me, the title of the book; “Letters from Christopher”! Was that designed to soften the impact of the horror and “humanize” CW? The title sounds more like a memoir or a romance, not the horror story it truly is. He’s Chris, not Christopher! If Cadle had written a book about Ted Bundy would it have been; “Letters from Theodore”? I’m really surprised that no one has commented on it! How about; “Letters from an Adulterous Family Annihilator”? That would be a more accurate title! Sorry, but it bothers me.

In one place in Cadle's book she is quoting Shan'ann's exact words from an SW text to CW, quote marks and all, but Cadle substitutes the word "Chris" that SW used and instead puts in "Christopher". Right in the middle of a quote. So it looks like SW called him Christopher too.
The use of "Christopher" in the title and thru the book I chalked off to the initial collaboration between Ma Watts, sis and Ms Cadle, back when Cadle was texting that she would use all the profits to get CW a good atty and they were apparently all hunky dory with their favorite annihilator. But who knows. I don't understand the soft spot all these women have for a mass murderer who even killed babies.

 

[drama_farmer]

In one place in Cadle's book she is quoting Shan'ann's exact words from an SW text to CW, quote marks and all, but Cadle substitutes the word "Chris" that SW used and instead puts in "Christopher". Right in the middle of a quote. So it looks like SW called him Christopher too.
The use of "Christopher" in the title and thru the book I chalked off to the initial collaboration between Ma Watts, sis and Ms Cadle, back when Cadle was texting that she would use all the profits to get CW a good atty and they were apparently all hunky dory with their favorite annihilator. But who knows. I don't understand the soft spot all these women have for a mass murderer who even killed babies.

Maybe "Christopher" is used because it contains the word "Christ." You know, as a way to signal the whole reading the bible/jailhouse conversion to Christianity thing? Uggghhhh!!

 

[Colorado303]

My understanding of HIPAA is that CW would have had access to his daughters' medical records and possibly to Shanann's medical records unless Shanann specifically assigned someone other than CW as her medical proxy.

He would have had access, he just didn’t want anyone else (prosecution, public and maybe other family members) to have access.

 

[Seattle1]

Thank you for tracking down the links!

In the filing, attorney’s support point #3 points out that HIPAA privacy still applies even after the privilege holder has died. IMO this indicates the sealed motion includes the girls and/or SW’s medical records, not just CW’s.

50 years

The HIPAA Privacy Rule states that individuals' identifiable health information remain protected for 50 years following their death.

How Do HIPAA Regulations Apply After Death?

Given the amount of information made public about this case and family, perhaps he was advised to to request records sealed to protect content from ever being leaked. If sealed and somebody ends up with the info and tries to profit from it, Court can impose sanctions against them, and family can sue.

MOO

 

[Shoegal87]

So now there's been a new chapter/forward released from Cindy's book written by the author Kathleen H which is supposedly in the form of rhetorical questions and sarcasm pointing out that CW's lies don't make any sense.
IMO the purpose of that chapter is because the Watts are trying to discredit all of CW's confessions since they still want to blame Shanann for the murders one way or the other.
They also discredit CW's confessions in the exact same way on the conspiracy sites.
It's not sarcasm (IMO), they mean it literally and want people to question why he would still be 'protecting' Shanann.
I absolutely believe Cherlyn Cadle was telling the truth about Cindy wanting her to sell that narrative about Shanann being the 'real killer', which was their plan A, IMO.

They have been working hard to discredit everything CW told Cadle, just like they worked so hard at discrediting her.
I think the main takeaway from Cadle's book was that CW finally admitted to planning the murders and feeling nothing but relief afterward, which totally matched his behavior and actions afterward.
This is why the Watts have been on a mission to discredit Cadle's book and now they want people to buy the 'rhetorical questions' and 'sarcasm' BS in Cindy's book.
With Cindy's book, they are now admitting he killed them all (plan B) but still blaming Shanann anyway, along with trying to insinuate that she abused her girls, IMO.
I hope people don't fall for their lies again. JMO

Here we are all familiar with charging docs, interviews, etc. I think I've listened to most of the interviews about 5 times each.
But well informed readers are a very small community.
The books like Cadle's have some value IMO because she got him to actually write his thoughts down for posterity, which will be hard for the MIL to suppress. But her chapter 5 was chock full of SW denigration. Unfortunately this and other books will be forming the mind set of millions of people beyond those of us who post here.
So, when a book is introduced, allegedly to tell the "side" of the killer's mother, that starts off with, paraphrased "Shan'ann was abusing her daughters, so Chris killed them to help protect her reputation, but this is just rhetorical musing" I think it's real important to know what's going on, and to voice an opinion to stop that line of thought from being broadcast to the millions who don't know anything about the case.
JMO

Not to get away from how obviously horrible CW is, but has anyone thought that when he initially said "I don't want to protect her" he meant NK? I find it odd that the method of killing the girls he originally gave was wrong and then later changed in his next confession following the autopsy results. How would lying about this benefit him in any way? Did he get this part wrong because NK actually killed them and he wasn't in the room? Perhaps while he killed SW.

I just can't move past NKs phone pinging in the area that morning. Has any explanation ever been given for this?

 

[gitana1]

Wow, I was just reading about another case which is earily similar to - Chris Coleman who killed his wife Sheri and 2 boys Garrett and Gavin. Men eradicating their families to start all over with a new lover.

Sickening...

Yes. That case was one that made me recognize what was happening in this one. That and the other Chris case.

There was a Canadian one recently. He killed his two little girls and his wife. Religious guy. The court system isn’t as open there I guess but it was radio silence mostly. He ended up pleading guilty pretty quickly though and then the details came out.

B.C. man killed wife, took daughters to church before smothering them: court

 

[NuttMegg]

Not to get away from how obviously horrible CW is, but has anyone thought that when he initially said "I don't want to protect her" he meant NK? I find it odd that the method of killing the girls he originally gave was wrong and then later changed in his next confession following the autopsy results. How would lying about this benefit him in any way? Did he get this part wrong because NK actually killed them and he wasn't in the room? Perhaps while he killed SW.

I just can't move past NKs phone pinging in the area that morning. Has any explanation ever been given for this?

JMO but I thought "I don't want to protect her" tied right into the story he glommed onto that Tammy suggested, with the aim of getting him to confess to something that they could arrest him for. IE he didn't want to protect SW and take the rap for her for killing the kids. Nearly exactly as what Tammy suggested. And, later in February he confessed again that he hadn't thought of that angle until Tammy suggested it.
But others have their POVs, and I too find it very weird that she was driving down that freeway near his house right at the time he would be committing murder or disposal of bodies.
IMO, again, just one of the opinions on this board, I don't discount that she went to his house the night of 12 August, possibly during or after the 111 minute call. Both NK and CW were self-servingly vague about what they talked about for 2 hours right before a family massacre. She hadn't seen him since the night before, IMO she had been putting an extreme ultimatum on him since SW/CW got back from NC, and it increased exponentially that weekend. But, IMO, she wasn't there when the murders took place, and took no physical part in the actual killings.