CO - The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram #2

[Anna1964]

she had 4 or 5 different drugs in her system-are these drugs common on the streets/with teens?

The combination of the drugs is just strange to me. As far as being common "street" drugs, they are not in the area I live. All sorts of pills are used by teens here, but these are just not found on the street for purchase, if you will. Flexeril has been found at the local high school, but it came from a mother's purse. Maybe they are found in her area though. We have a huge drug problem here, everything from pills, pot, and meth everywhere, but I think someone would be hard pressed to find these specific pills, at least here. Pain pills, zanax, among others seem to be the drugs of choice. Seems like odd drugs to use to "party," unless there was no access to others or you were just desperate for drugs. An article ran recently on the local news warning parents and others to put their medications up because so many kids were swiping them from medicine cabinets and purses. I am sure these meds are in many homes here. I have even seen tons of articles about adults stealing meds from friends and relatives. It's nuts. Like I said, we have a major drug problem here.

 

[liz b.]

I have quite the collection of unique blades, including a samurai sword (authentic), throwing stars, switch blades, push daggers, and even fantasy knives. I have no ties whatsoever to Japan and I am not a Ninja. A "unique blade" could also be a carpet knife (a funny shaped blade that fits into a utility type knife for cutting carpets), a karambit (which I also own; lots of fun), or just a knife/sword/razor blade that she's never seen before.

I just had new carpets put in and I'm still finding those funny hook-shaped blades everywhere: the window sill, outside, on the porch, even the bathroom. The guy who laid the carpet said usually the carpet layers just leave them under the carpet; he thought that was unsafe (yeah, go figure).

But even if it was a throwing knife (or shuriken), I'm willing to bet there wasn't a Ninja anywhere near the area.

Your knife collection sounds extensive and interesting...but,I was posting to say that Morgan's mom did not write that a knife was found.She specifically stated that "unique blades " were found. She seems fairly articulate, and so I take note of her use of words ?

Be wonderful if we could see a photo of the blades ? Or even get a description... And since these blades were underneath the ground branches of a tree, I doubt that anyone would have moved the branches while looking for footprints ? Therefore, I believe that the blades could have easily been overlooked... JMO

 

[liz b.]

Take out the word ninja, and you still have a plain old stalker. Someone who is a loner, believes himself powerless and wronged, etc. Since the family never saw the blade before, even tho they were constantly looking for footprints and such, it's logical to conclude that it came on to the property after they moved.

Okay, it is just a theory...what do you make of the guy caught on the wildlife cam ? Do you think he is the stalker ? I have had doubts about some of the events described. But, have come to the conclusion that Morgan was being stalked. JMO

 

[MayraMM]

Be wonderful if we could see a photo of the blades ? Or even get a description... JMO

I sooooo agree. Even a description would be good.

Around here, we refer to all knives (outside of kitchen knives) as blades.

Unique Blade is also the name of a knife company, so while most people wouldn't know that, the knife could have had it etched in the side.

Some people refer to fantasy knives as unique blades, as well.

 

[MayraMM]

Okay, it is just a theory...what do you make of the guy caught on the wildlife cam ? Do you think he is the stalker ? I have had doubts about some of the events described. But, have come to the conclusion that Morgan was being stalked. JMO

I have a real problem with that picture, which I don't think I'm allowed to discuss here. Let's just say for now that it could have been a neighbor being nosy, who now fears legal repercussions and doesn't want to step forward, or doesn't even know he was captured on film.

I think Morgan had a peeper in the beginning. Notice how the focus and quality of stalking changed after that? Mom and dad experienced more than she did, so it's quite possible the intention was to terrorize them. After all, messing with someone's child is terrorizing enough.

I'm not convinced the stalking/peeping and death are connected, except that maybe the stress of all the activity was too much for M to handle. Like I said, the scenario of someone getting in unseen, putting that much into her system, then getting out unseen is far less likely than her "borrowing" something to help her sleep from friends, hoarding it until she was ready, and then just going to sleep one night.

 

[MindMountaineer]

I'm not convinced the stalking/peeping and death are connected, except that maybe the stress of all the activity was too much for M to handle. Like I said, the scenario of someone getting in unseen, putting that much into her system, then getting out unseen is far less likely than her "borrowing" something to help her sleep from friends, hoarding it until she was ready, and then just going to sleep one night.

I see where you're coming from, but for me, it's the opposite. I think it's perfectly plausible that a determined stalker, one who spends much of every day monitoring his victim's every move--or in this case, every move of the members of a household IN AND AROUND the household--would prove quite adept at breaking and entering in great stealth. I personally cannot identify with that ability, but that's because I'm not a stalker. Like any "skill," I'm sure, stalking takes practice and with commitment and consistency a stalker could evolve from peeper to "ninja of darkness" in a short time.

A home is not a fortress to someone who really wants inside it. Every home has a way in, no matter what security is in place. Only the most determined and cunning can figure out a way in; most of us, not being stalkers, would see a lock or an alarm system sign and give up. But not someone under the spell of obsession and probably a myriad of severe personality disorders, as well.

One thing that I wonder about is the comparatively short duration of the stalking before it escalated to [possible] murder. My understanding was that stalkers typically spend much longer tormenting their victims before deciding to kill them. Even on this site, we've heard from or of people who were stalked for YEARS. That this stalking was "only" four months long makes me think of several possibilities:

1) Morgan had been stalked for much longer prior to what Toni pinpoints as the "start" of the stalking;
2) The stalker derived so much gratification from remaining uncaught despite the family's fervid efforts that he was quickly excited to "climax," i.e., to carrying out the murder;
3) INDEED THE FAMILY AND L.E. WAS VERY CLOSE, CLOSER THAN THEY REALIZED, TO CATCHING THE STALKER; THE STALKER REALIZED THAT AND HAD TO ACT FAST.

This third possibility especially merits some consideration, I think, because it might mean that whatever the family knew in the few weeks before Morgan's death was, perhaps, very close to the truth...and perhaps going back to their notes on what they believed then might provide some apt leads today.

 

[Confusion]

I don't totally understand a stalker's mind either, but is it possible that there was a 4th option there too? Maybe he/she/they found a more desirable victim (possibly one easier to get to and more likely to totally freak out, which could add to the enjoyment), and was/were ready to move on.

 

[MayraMM]

1) Morgan had been stalked for much longer prior to what Toni pinpoints as the "start" of the stalking;
2) The stalker derived so much gratification from remaining uncaught despite the family's fervid efforts that he was quickly excited to "climax," i.e., to carrying out the murder;
3) INDEED THE FAMILY AND L.E. WAS VERY CLOSE, CLOSER THAN THEY REALIZED, TO CATCHING THE STALKER; THE STALKER REALIZED THAT AND HAD TO ACT FAST.

Some have suggested that perhaps the impending foreclosures of several houses in that group expedited things.

But I'm still not convinced that there was a stalking.

 

[rollinginit]

Here are two stalking with poisoning cases in the news and there are more out there. These are better links:

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/titusville-firefighter-granted-bond-poisoning-case/nHdWT/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/25/AR2007012502091.html


Obviously there are no statistics out there on organized group stalking or gaslighting because these are crimes that are often not prosecuted and victims suffer in silence.

Just because you find lunacy and nonsense on the web doesn't mean the whole concept is lunacy and nonsense.

Thanks for the links.
There is also an episode on ID's Stalking show that talks about gang stalking or (group stalking) I think the female was 14 or 15 and she was gang stalked. Anyway, the woman host says that it is a crime that is popping up fast all over.

I do wonder if bullies are going to get classified as stalkers or gang stalkers soon? Seems like there isn't much of a line between the two.

 

[Lera213]

Until LE or some agency proves otherwise I'm going to put my trust into the Ingram's. They lived it, they are not crazy in fact Toni was very articulate. They are not making any of this up. She took detailed notes for goodness sake. Doesn't it strike any of you how LE is awful quiet about this?

You have a 20 year old, who was into nature, loved animals, kids, made her own facial creams, ate yogurt, very smart, who did not like to take pills even when offered something to sleep with. Yet some think she could have gotten pills from a friend. What? If she was planning it, she could have got sleeping pills from her Doctor just a week before she died. Taken those and just gone to sleep.

No I believe this family! Her love, devoting, and lost in what to do is heartbreaking. She opens up to WS and what does she read. Many that doubt every word she says. She cannot get a break from anyone she opens up to.

I'm not singling anyone out but my gosh, I'm astonished. Question yes, but maybe it is my reading comprehension but it is coming out as anything but what the mom says.

I happen to believe 4 people are involved, not one person and this is why to some it doesn't make sense. If you have a gang of 4 people stalking, it makes a lot more sense.

I have a theory and in my own head it makes logical sense. Too bad I cannot share it here.

Anyway...I'm just feeling very heavy for these parents knowing they are reading here and it has to be very hurtful. If I were them, I would not want to open up to anyone. They are sharing their Daughter, in the most profound way.

 

[Trident]

I see where you're coming from, but for me, it's the opposite. I think it's perfectly plausible that a determined stalker, one who spends much of every day monitoring his victim's every move--or in this case, every move of the members of a household IN AND AROUND the household--would prove quite adept at breaking and entering in great stealth. I personally cannot identify with that ability, but that's because I'm not a stalker. Like any "skill," I'm sure, stalking takes practice and with commitment and consistency a stalker could evolve from peeper to "ninja of darkness" in a short time.

A home is not a fortress to someone who really wants inside it. Every home has a way in, no matter what security is in place. Only the most determined and cunning can figure out a way in; most of us, not being stalkers, would see a lock or an alarm system sign and give up. But not someone under the spell of obsession and probably a myriad of severe personality disorders, as well.

One thing that I wonder about is the comparatively short duration of the stalking before it escalated to [possible] murder. My understanding was that stalkers typically spend much longer tormenting their victims before deciding to kill them. Even on this site, we've heard from or of people who were stalked for YEARS. That this stalking was "only" four months long makes me think of several possibilities:

1) Morgan had been stalked for much longer prior to what Toni pinpoints as the "start" of the stalking;
2) The stalker derived so much gratification from remaining uncaught despite the family's fervid efforts that he was quickly excited to "climax," i.e., to carrying out the murder;
3) INDEED THE FAMILY AND L.E. WAS VERY CLOSE, CLOSER THAN THEY REALIZED, TO CATCHING THE STALKER; THE STALKER REALIZED THAT AND HAD TO ACT FAST.

This third possibility especially merits some consideration, I think, because it might mean that whatever the family knew in the few weeks before Morgan's death was, perhaps, very close to the truth...and perhaps going back to their notes on what they believed then might provide some apt leads today.

BBM - YES, yes, yes. My twelve-year-old daughter did this. Let me explain. She dressed all in black, had the good sense to blacken her face, and hide her hair under a black hat - then she began stalking the neighborhood. Finally she sorta got caught on someone's deack, they must have heard a noise and came out. The upshot was, she scared the living 'ell out of them and she took off. To this day they have no idea who it was. The reason she did this? It was a dry run for mischief night.

I'm just posting this here to show it CAN be done by a 12 year old girl who doesn't belong to MENSA. That was only her first try, and she was pretty good at it. Imagine if she had been older and had a grudge against someone.

 

[21merc7]

Hmm.

All the drugs listed are readily available to Morgan and friends through school or the free clinic if any choose to go and talk with a doc or therapist. They can even be found in home medicine cabinets from parents, siblings, grandparents, whomever lives there. They can be bought as "street" drugs from those that get the scrip but want the cash for some other substance, which is easy to figure out when in school.

Interesting that the videos, which seem to contain the only real evidence, will not be posted.

I am looking at what little evidence there is and it does not add up for the strong accusations to me.

One footprint. Could have been a friend over to see Morgan, could have been Morgan's from some earlier day or other family member, could have been nosy neighbor, or someone chasing their dog. (Any other footprints were merely talked about and there are no photos, which means non-existent, no evidence.)

The gutter. That is stained. They never went on the roof until they talked with a psychic after the fact. They have no idea when the gutter was damaged, and appears to have been damaged for some time. Add to this that locks were on doors that no one looked at or knew about for 6 1/2 years! Even after a suspected stalker shows up?!!

The hoodie person. No evidence of this. Could imagination be playing tricks? Could it be a neighbor out for an early morning walk or chasing after their own dog, a college student stumbling home after an all nighter?

The key code pushing. Again I ask did anyone give the key code out? Did Morgan ever sneak out or have friends sneak in? How easy was it to set off a sound? A squirrel or a bird land on it? There is no evidence.

A blade under a tree. Found after family moved out. Good grief, that could be any neighborhood youth playing, carving initials, carrying a blade for reasons stated above (ninja star like collectors, many do this, and study marshall arts simultaneously btw), any reason, but not found while in the home, therefore not related.

The car. Someone said there is only one way out of the neighborhood. Couldn't the friends have been simply going somewhere? Wouldn't it be in any general direction Morgan was headed? They were the same age group, doing the same things. They could have, as someone stated, just been angry and got on her bumper. We don't know.

(BTW, this is also how easy it is for stalkers to get out of stalking charges with no evidence to support the claim.)

Then we have LE never finding anything. I do think LE handled this well. They showed up every time and looked. They went so far as to question any and all they were told could be stalkers. They found nothing.

Missing jewelry. No one has gotten around to getting the photos of Morgan wearing it. Most of us give it as a holiday gift and snap the joyous opening photos, and donning of the new jewelry photos. This has been left hanging.

Again, I wonder, did Morgan have friends coming after parents went to bed, to ask her back out to the party? Did she date a young man mom knows nothing about and he was coming over for some passionate moments?

A lot is not adding up. There could have been a stalker, I agree. There could have been a friend.

Morgan's death. She could easily obtain the medications. I really can't see anyone breaking in and giving them to her. She could have been given them on a date for the purpose of rape, but we now know she was seeing an OBGYN and on the pill, so the date would have no need to rape. Her last night was with a BF, so we could think he did this, but I doubt that. She just went to the doc, I suppose for her annual check up, and more pills (jmo).

I fear that what is happening could only bring more issues for mom and dad. Those accused can and may be in the process of Federal charges for the accusations.

LE felt none of the accused was involved. This is not helpful. I agree LE messes up a lot. I'm not sure here. I am sure if you are going to accuse others of felony stalking and then the most heinous, murder, you would need evidence to substantiate it. Not imaginings, not assumptions. This family needs a good lawyer to advise them, and if that lawyer feels there is a case, a private investigator.

 

[keeponsearching]

I believe M was being stalked. But I like to hear other sides.

Now if that was a neighbor who came over to be nosy, why would he hit the camera.?

 

[Trident]

Actually, why would the stalker hit the camera? He knew it was there, he might have been recorded and that's why he turned his head so quickly. Whar good would it do him to hit it - to break it? possible, but not probable, unless he wasn't that bright, just like my 12 year old.

 

[keeponsearching]

I think the stalker hit the camera because he was mad. I can not see a neighbor hitting the camera, what if the pic did come in clear, the neighbor would be destroying personal property.

 

[21merc7]

I've yet to find the post about the camera being hit. Is something captured on the film?

Here is the next way out of that. Could a squirrel, raccoon, rat or any animal have hopped on it and knocked it a bit?

What happened with the camera, if anyone can direct me.

I'm not being mean in these statements, I'm hoping the parents will get a lawyer. (I've been through this, and without solid evidence, you have nothing.)

 

[Trident]

I've yet to find the post about the camera being hit. Is something captured on the film?

Here is the next way out of that. Could a squirrel, raccoon, rat or any animal have hopped on it and knocked it a bit?

What happened with the camera, if anyone can direct me.

I'm not being mean in this statements, I'm hoping the parents will get a lawyer. (I've been through this, and without solid evidence, you have nothing.)

There's a pic of the camera being hit, right after the alleged pic of the stalker. Maybe you missed it?

 

[twinkiesmom]

I understand these are your beliefs, but with all due respect, we don't know she was healthy. Her own mother says she had circles under her eyes and was showing signs of stress, not eating, etc.

She got a clean bill of health (inc. state of mind) from her gynecologist that she saw 36 hours before she died.

The cause of death was amitriptyline toxicity. It's the manner of death which is in question.

That's what I meant, but agree with your terminology. My bad.

Can the drug formulations be sourced to her friends or outside sources available to her? It didn't need to come from the home to be suicide.

No, but there were also no pill bottles, wrappers, baggies, mixing cup, spoon, syringes etc left behind to tie the drugs to Morgan personally. I think she would have been too incapacitated after imbibing this drug cocktail to be able to get rid of ALL the evidence from the home.

Yes, stalking absolutely can be surreptitious. So far, though, all we've really seen is peeping. The car she thought was following her may or may not have been a stalker. It could have been angry teenagers accused of stalking her trying to mess with her in retaliation for being questioned.

The evidence is inconclusive, as the picture of the "stalker" has yet to be identified; could have been a nosy neighbor. The keying may or may not have been related, and the blade on the ground was found AFTER they had moved out so there's no saying how long it was there. There has been only one footprint (as of yet), even with all that activity, and since mom was witnessed to more incidents than M, if there was a stalking or other predatory behavior, it could have been directed to her or even the whole family to instill fear.

Thou dost protest too much. The knocking on the windows isn't just peeping. The behavior escalated over time and in response to countermeasures such as the camera. She was followed several times. The stalker was caught on camera multiple times as well as trying to enter the front door code. The young female in the home is the obvious target...We do not hear about the family currently being stalked...It apparently started and ended with Morgan.

With the evidence we do have available, it's more likely to be suicide than homicide, although we still have weeks of story to hear. The scenario of a poisoning in her own home by outsiders with such a large amount of medication, despite extensive security measures, is a lot harder to picture than one where she gathered the drugs and took them all herself.

I'm not ruling anything out, but from what I've seen, heard, and read since this thread has been up is that this is a very sad family trying to make sense of their daughter's sudden death, and perhaps not being able to deal with the facts.

Statistically, it would be much more likely to be a suicide, but given the stalking and the lack of evidence that Morgan had access to these drugs personally, I think this is a unique case and an open mind is required.

I also believe that crimes committed by multiple individuals working together are not going to appear to fit the mold that we have come to expect (e.g., the lone obsessed stalker).

I agree with whoever said that LE and the ME need to sit the family down and walk thru each piece of evidence (not dismiss them, but explain them) until the family can come to an understanding or until LE/ME says, "Hold up, you might have something there." As long as they don't explain there will be questions and accusations of incompetence. The family deserves to have all their concerns addressed, have access to all reports, and have the opportunity to ask questions until they have no more questions to ask.

They should take an advocate not related to the family (someone who can objectively observe and take notes) and be scheduled for an open-ended appointment. If it takes all day, then it takes all day. Any person of compassion should agree with that, and if they refuse to grant the family that, then there is a problem.

The problem is the public servants (LE/ME) n this jurisdiction apparently just don't care and have left this family to twist in the wind.

 

[21merc7]

There's a pic of the camera being hit, right after the alleged pic of the stalker. Maybe you missed it?

Yep, I looked yesterday and could not find it. Still it could be explained away, unless the perp is on the cam. Neighbor not wanting people taking pics for any reason, even just to protect privacy of their own children, (happened to my parents when the neighborhood went downhill and neighbors wanted dad's cams removed as they could catch drug deals). Kid playing pinata. You name it. Although, it does seem more suspicious to me.

Can anyone link to the cam issue? Thanks in advance if you can. :blowkiss: I'll check back when I get to work.

 

[twinkiesmom]

Hmm.

All the drugs listed are readily available to Morgan and friends through school or the free clinic if any choose to go and talk with a doc or therapist. They can even be found in home medicine cabinets from parents, siblings, grandparents, whomever lives there. They can be bought as "street" drugs from those that get the scrip but want the cash for some other substance, which is easy to figure out when in school.

Interesting that the videos, which seem to contain the only real evidence, will not be posted.

I am looking at what little evidence there is and it does not add up for the strong accusations to me.

One footprint. Could have been a friend over to see Morgan, could have been Morgan's from some earlier day or other family member, could have been nosy neighbor, or someone chasing their dog. (Any other footprints were merely talked about and there are no photos, which means non-existent, no evidence.)

The gutter. That is stained. They never went on the roof until they talked with a psychic after the fact. They have no idea when the gutter was damaged, and appears to have been damaged for some time. Add to this that locks were on doors that no one looked at or knew about for 6 1/2 years! Even after a suspected stalker shows up?!!

The hoodie person. No evidence of this. Could imagination be playing tricks? Could it be a neighbor out for an early morning walk or chasing after their own dog, a college student stumbling home after an all nighter?

The key code pushing. Again I ask did anyone give the key code out? Did Morgan ever sneak out or have friends sneak in? How easy was it to set off a sound? A squirrel or a bird land on it? There is no evidence.

A blade under a tree. Found after family moved out. Good grief, that could be any neighborhood youth playing, carving initials, carrying a blade for reasons stated above (ninja star like collectors, many do this, and study marshall arts simultaneously btw), any reason, but not found while in the home, therefore not related.

The car. Someone said there is only one way out of the neighborhood. Couldn't the friends have been simply going somewhere? Wouldn't it be in any general direction Morgan was headed? They were the same age group, doing the same things. They could have, as someone stated, just been angry and got on her bumper. We don't know.

(BTW, this is also how easy it is for stalkers to get out of stalking charges with no evidence to support the claim.)

Then we have LE never finding anything. I do think LE handled this well. They showed up every time and looked. They went so far as to question any and all they were told could be stalkers. They found nothing.

Missing jewelry. No one has gotten around to getting the photos of Morgan wearing it. Most of us give it as a holiday gift and snap the joyous opening photos, and donning of the new jewelry photos. This has been left hanging.

Again, I wonder, did Morgan have friends coming after parents went to bed, to ask her back out to the party? Did she date a young man mom knows nothing about and he was coming over for some passionate moments?

A lot is not adding up. There could have been a stalker, I agree. There could have been a friend.

Morgan's death. She could easily obtain the medications. I really can't see anyone breaking in and giving them to her. She could have been given them on a date for the purpose of rape, but we now know she was seeing an OBGYN and on the pill, so the date would have no need to rape. Her last night was with a BF, so we could think he did this, but I doubt that. She just went to the doc, I suppose for her annual check up, and more pills (jmo).

I fear that what is happening could only bring more issues for mom and dad. Those accused can and may be in the process of Federal charges for the accusations.

LE felt none of the accused was involved. This is not helpful. I agree LE messes up a lot. I'm not sure here. I am sure if you are going to accuse others of felony stalking and then the most heinous, murder, you would need evidence to substantiate it. Not imaginings, not assumptions. This family needs a good lawyer to advise them, and if that lawyer feels there is a case, a private investigator.

<modsnip>. There's too much here to say nothing to see here.