CO - The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram #3

[MelissaDawn]

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/websleuths/2012/09/17/websleuths-radio

73:34
starts the mentioning of the inconclusives

Working as a medical transcriptionist I used my med drug spell checker and tried several variations of the second drug she mentioned and stumbled over and couldn't come up with anything. too bad she didn't spell it out for us.

 

[marycarney]

No - pulmonary edema does NOT occur with every death. Quite the opposite, it is a distinct pathological finding - and not common.

 

[mysterygirl]

I don't understand the manner in which this blog is being produced, so drawn-out, with promises of evidence to come. Wouldn't any real evidence be the first thing you'd post, so as to avoid all of this speculation and possibly hurtful posts? It seems like some sort of a cliffhanger-type series or something. My mind would be more open if it was presented in a more straight forward manner, laying out all of the facts and evidence first.

I think it's brilliant.

You spend time and become emotionally invested in the story over time.

You live it like you are there day by day..........it provides more exposure.....and one is less likely to forget about this story and move on to another one.

 

[MayraMM]

I think that pulm. edema can be seen with many OD's, regardless of what drugs caused the O.D.

However, broaden your search to pulmonary edema and tricyclic overdose.....

Pulmonary edema I believe happens when anyone dies. Correct me if I'm wrong Nursebee.

I was curious as to the Dalmane in particular since it is such an unusual drug. If pulmonary edema is a common side effect, then a whole group of people can be ruled out as potential patients taking it.

I've seen it prescribed, but not that often at all. I was hoping maybe some info on it could give me an idea as to where it could have come from, since it is so rarely used. For instance, as someone pointed out, when it is seen in a med list, it's usually an elderly patient. Any type of "quirk" like that might tell us something.

Like Honey said (at least I think it was Honey), find out where the medication came from, and you'll find out what happened.

Was the medication stolen from somewhere? Was it prescribed to some other family member? Was it something available to an outsider? Was it something borrowed from a friend? If, for instance, Dalmane is something only seen given to elderly patients, then who has access to a nursing home or an elderly family member? If it's used to calm down panicky dogs, who has access to a vet? Same with the Flexeril; who had an injury, perhaps, being treated or access to someone with an injury. Who had been treated in the past with muscle relaxants? Did anyone in the group have chronic pain issues? Most of these questions will never get answered, but it doesn't hurt to look.

 

[mysterygirl]

No - pulmonary edema does NOT occur with every death. Quite the opposite, it is a distinct pathological finding - and not common.

I didn't say every death.

But it does happen with O.D.'s and if you read the link I provided it is a known occurence with tricyclic overdose.

 

[Confusion]

Working as a medical transcriptionist I used my med drug spell checker and tried several variations of the second drug she mentioned and stumbled over and couldn't come up with anything. too bad she didn't spell it out for us.

It was N-desalkyl flurazepam, which is a metabolite of Dalmane.

I didn't mean to submit this yet... I just wanted to add that pulonary edema is common in ODs because it can be caused by inhalation of stomach contents - which can happen if you vomit when you're unconscious or close to it. MOO (told me by doctors about a relative who OD'd)

 

[MayraMM]

Working as a medical transcriptionist I used my med drug spell checker and tried several variations of the second drug she mentioned and stumbled over and couldn't come up with anything. too bad she didn't spell it out for us.

desalkylflurazepam or hydroxyethyl-flurazepam? metabolites.

Edit: Looks like confusion beat me to it!

 

[MelissaDawn]

It was N-desalkyl flurazepam, which is a metabolite of Dalmane.

I think you're right. When she stated it was a metabolite of "that other drug" I thought she was referring to the drug she was trying to pronounce. But yours makes much more sense, and knocks us back down to only 3 drugs in the system; amitriptyline, Flexeril and Dalmane.

 

[mysterygirl]

I was curious as to the Dalmane in particular since it is such an unusual drug. If pulmonary edema is a common side effect, then a whole group of people can be ruled out as potential patients taking it.

I've seen it prescribed, but not that often at all. I was hoping maybe some info on it could give me an idea as to where it could have come from, since it is so rarely used. For instance, as someone pointed out, when it is seen in a med list, it's usually an elderly patient. Any type of "quirk" like that might tell us something.

Like Honey said (at least I think it was Honey), find out where the medication came from, and you'll find out what happened.

Was the medication stolen from somewhere? Was it prescribed to some other family member? Was it something available to an outsider? Was it something borrowed from a friend? If, for instance, Dalmane is something only seen given to elderly patients, then who has access to a nursing home or an elderly family member? If it's used to calm down panicky dogs, who has access to a vet? Same with the Flexeril; who had an injury, perhaps, being treated or access to someone with an injury. Who had been treated in the past with muscle relaxants? Did anyone in the group have chronic pain issues? Most of these questions will never get answered, but it doesn't hurt to look.

It's definitely odd.

I haven't done a pre op in the last ten yrs with someone on that drug.

In fact, the only person I know on it is my ninety two yr old grandmother and my psychiatrist uncle is the one prescribing it.

 

[mysterygirl]

I think you're right. When she stated it was a metabolite of "that other drug" I thought she was referring to the drug she was trying to pronounce. But yours makes much more sense, and knocks us back down to only 3 drugs in the system; amitriptyline, Flexeril and Dalmane.

I just listened to it and that's what I got out of it also.....a metabolite from the Dalmane......

 

[hambirg]

The only 2 drugs listed in Dr. Dobersen's letter are amitriptyline and Flexeril. However, I think it's the way the last 2 sentences are worded that has everyone confused. From the letter: "Furthermore, cyclobenzaprine (Flexeril), a central skeletal muscle relaxant, was found on testing of the gastric contents on June 6, 2012. The presence of another medication, not currently prescribed for Morgan Ingram and ocasionally used as a 'date-rape' drug, further increases the suspicious nature of this death."

I think people are misreading that as the date-rape drug being a third drug found in her system, but I think it's actually referring to the Flexeril.

I agree, it is confusing. Is he talking about the flexeril or the flurazepam (Dalmane) that mom mentioned?

 

[ChunkyMonkey]

I don't know about Colorado and I don't know how the GED part factors in, but I do know people who have taken high school classes at a study center as part of their homeschooling and had those count as college credit. They are considered "duel enrollment" classes and I believe there has to be an association with a college, community or otherwise, to count as college credit.

Makes complete sense to me. She got her GED thru CMC, then got her AA at CMC. CMC is a pretty progressive school, and is a big draw for kids in that valley. They offer 4 year degree programs, too, and are well-known for their photography, veterinary and law enforcement (CLETA) programs.

 

[K.jill]

I think that the mom's plan to post events daily on the anniversary of their occurrence was a great idea. The number of followers of the blog has grown exponentially every day. Also, she has a lot of information and this has been a good way to get people to read all of it and not just concentrate on the major happenings. This way readers absorb the info and become emotionally invested. Great idea.
IMO she should consider changing her original plan at this point and releasing more details very soon, especially any strong pieces of hard, undeniable evidence. The amount of interest is at a peak and I think some followers might loose interest because they are not seeing enough evidence or feel that the blog promises upcoming evidence that has not appeared yet.

 

[MelissaDawn]

I think that the mom's plan to post events daily on the anniversary of their occurrence was a great idea. The number of followers of the blog has grown exponentially every day. Also, she has a lot of information and this has been a good way to get people to read all of it and not just concentrate on the major happenings. This way readers absorb the info and become emotionally invested. Great idea.
IMO she should consider changing her original plan at this point and releasing more details very soon, especially any strong pieces of hard, undeniable evidence. The amount of interest is at a peak and I think some followers might loose interest because they are not seeing enough evidence or feel that the blog promises upcoming evidence that has not appeared yet.

If what you want is for people to sympathize/empathize with the situation, then yes, this is a good way of achieving that. However, if you want the truth about what really happened, it's logic and reason that needs to prevail, not emotions.

Emotionally, I think it's wrong that the drunk driver who killed my brother is only going to spend a little more than 5 years in prison. Logically, she actually received double the normal sentence in these type of cases, so justice was served.

 

[ChunkyMonkey]

I think that the mom's plan to post events daily on the anniversary of their occurrence was a great idea. The number of followers of the blog has grown exponentially every day. Also, she has a lot of information and this has been a good way to get people to read all of it and not just concentrate on the major happenings. This way readers absorb the info and become emotionally invested. Great idea.
IMO she should consider changing her original plan at this point and releasing more details very soon, especially any strong pieces of hard, undeniable evidence. The amount of interest is at a peak and I think some followers might loose interest because they are not seeing enough evidence or feel that the blog promises upcoming evidence that has not appeared yet.

Agreed. Plus the average reader probably isn't a WS'er. They are probably anxious for new posts, but they probably aren't upset about the lack of hardcore evidence necessary to solve the mystery.

 

[K.jill]

If what you want is for people to sympathize/empathize with the situation, then yes, this is a good way of achieving that. However, if you want the truth about what really happened, it's logic and reason that needs to prevail, not emotions.

Emotionally, I think it's wrong that the drunk driver who killed my brother is only going to spend a little more than 5 years in prison. Logically, she actually received double the normal sentence in these type of cases, so justice was served.

I agree.
I think that she has our attention, we wanna know.....so now would be a good time to show us all the evidence.
Only my opinion...

 

[Lera213]

I agree.
I think that she has our attention, we wanna know.....so now would be a good time to show us all the evidence.
Only my opinion...

I disagree respectfully

TI started this and had a plan that has been working hasn't it? Look how many have taken interest. To change now would take that advantage away. She started out with a format and a reason. To account each day as it happened a year ago, going off of the copious notes she and her husband took. I believe she should stay the course.

 

[rollinginit]

My DD's know nothing about WS. They do check the Morgan's blog every morning. My 20 and 15 believe it all without any doubts. My two SIL's read it and my MIL. Neither of them doubt it either.

No matter what you believe....it is getting the word out to women about stalking. They are learning something valuable about it. JMO

 

[ChunkyMonkey]

Emotionally, I think it's wrong that the drunk driver who killed my brother is only going to spend a little more than 5 years in prison. Logically, she actually received double the normal sentence in these type of cases, so justice was served.

Sorry to hear of your loss, MelissaDawn. I can not imagine the pain you must be going through.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

I was curious as to the Dalmane in particular since it is such an unusual drug. If pulmonary edema is a common side effect, then a whole group of people can be ruled out as potential patients taking it.

I've seen it prescribed, but not that often at all. I was hoping maybe some info on it could give me an idea as to where it could have come from, since it is so rarely used. For instance, as someone pointed out, when it is seen in a med list, it's usually an elderly patient. Any type of "quirk" like that might tell us something.

Like Honey said (at least I think it was Honey), find out where the medication came from, and you'll find out what happened.
Was the medication stolen from somewhere? Was it prescribed to some other family member? Was it something available to an outsider? Was it something borrowed from a friend? If, for instance, Dalmane is something only seen given to elderly patients, then who has access to a nursing home or an elderly family member? If it's used to calm down panicky dogs, who has access to a vet? Same with the Flexeril; who had an injury, perhaps, being treated or access to someone with an injury. Who had been treated in the past with muscle relaxants? Did anyone in the group have chronic pain issues? Most of these questions will never get answered, but it doesn't hurt to look.

That's right, MayraMM........get to the source!