CO - The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram #4

[MayraMM]

But we are talking transdermal for a horse.........! She could have gotten a reasonably high level depending on the dose of the patch.

Has anyone been able to find a link to a site showing that transdermal patches are available in large doses for horses? All I was able to find were cats and dogs, and even in those it was said the blood levels from the patches were undetectable.

There is a transdermal gel, which is not the same as a patch, and again, designed for cats and dogs, not horses.

 

[NancyA]

Thank you, hambirg

IMHO the intention was to bring attention to the fact that the parents have questions regarding the way Morgan's case went. I think they are trying to show that there are some valid questions here that need to be re-examined by outside sources.

In a way, I understand why they are not releasing all the details and evidence. I don't think I would either. While we would like to see those things, it's probably wise to keep some things out of the public realm until if and when there ever is an outside investigation.

So in my opinion, it's just a matter of gaining public interest enough to hopefully put some pressure on anybody that is in a position of authority to re-examine Morgan's case and get some answers to the questions that have arisen.



I didn't think about that when I posted earlier. Thank you for posting this above...it really made me think about my earlier post.

BBM. It's a start but public opinion can only do so much if the 'pressure' it's applying remains confined to comments on the blog and other internet forums. I think if they want to move this forward the Ingrams would be well served by getting a good PI to investigate for them - for example it's not enough to prove someone could climb on the roof, they have to prove someone did climb on the roof - and they also need a good attorney to advise them where they stand legally and what they need to bring their case to whichever higher authority is appropriate. He/she may also help them compile all the relevant documents, including the Ingrams' own sworn statements and any official complaints they have made about how the case has been conducted so far plus all the various LE and ME reports and from there form it into some kind of cohesive whole. JMO.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I haven't read any of Morgan's writings except her blog (linked on the blog we're discussing and ditto for some brief mentions there).

From what we've been shown (not just told), Morgan was a gifted artist (not "just" photography). Many (most? all?) are gifted in more than one genre. So I would love to read Morgan's writings.

I don't mean to ignore all your great questions...just quick-posting.

Are you saying that Morgan herself had a blog? If so, I didn't know that and will read it. How long had she been blogging? About what?

 

[mysterygirl]

The elavil she was prescribed was not higher than 25mg correct?

 

[marycarney]

Has anyone been able to find a link to a site showing that transdermal patches are available in large doses for horses? All I was able to find were cats and dogs, and even in those it was said the blood levels from the patches were undetectable.

There is a transdermal gel, which is not the same as a patch, and again, designed for cats and dogs, not horses.

Not a vet - but pretty sure you would not find patches for furry animals - which is why the gel has capsaicin - to dilate the underlying blood vessels for absorption - and to keep the animal from licking it off.

 

[Confusion]

I don't think there is any type for suicide. Beautiful or plain, fat or thin, rich or poor...the brain does not discriminate any of that. If one is severely distressed and cannot see another way, I believe that their background, their loved ones, etc...all get lost in the sadness/powerlessness, etc...whatever it is that decides it for them. Perhaps some young people feel they can't achieve whatever it is they hoped, or others hoped for them, or perhaps there are outside stressors. There is no way of knowing what is going on in a person's head.

I have no idea why Morgan died, but suicide cannot be ruled out just because.

I'm still looking at this as something other than suicide, but I can't disagree with what you've said. Sometimes I think one of the worst parts is that many times nobody has any idea why. When I was young, I knew a guy who had a beautiful little sister. She was 14, straight A student, extremely popular with both males and females she knew, no alcohol, no drugs, not pregnant, etc., etc.

One day, the big brother was sitting at home with a group of his friends, and the sister was talking with them while they watched a movie and ate pizza. She was laughing and having a good time, and showed no indication that anything was bothering her. Shortly before the movie ended, she just stretched and said, "Hmm, I think I'll go blow my brains out." Everybody laughed and made dumb comments about joining her, she got up and left the room. Less than 2 minutes later, they heard a gunshot, went to her room, and found her dead with a bullet in her brain. As far as I know, they never did find out why.

Maybe M did take the drugs willingly, and maybe not, but I do think her family deserves to know the truth. Just saying it happened without looking into it doesn't give me a lot of confidence in their findings.

 

[fowltemptress]

What if it was put in a lotion and after applying this lotion, she felt the effects of the capsaicin and took a HOT shower to wash it off? Inadvertently, heating the transdermal gel spiked lotion that could have been all over her body, and increasing the potency tremendously? Added bonus for the perp, she washed most of the evidence away. This is all a hypothetical brainstorm that has been floating around in my head, thanks now and TIA for helping me confirm or dismiss my wild theories =)

 

[NancyA]

Guys don't forget these are postmortem samples being used to determine antemortem dosages. There are many variables that must be considered, what peripheral area was the sample taken from? how soon after death? How much (I mean actually quantify) did postmortem redistribution factor into the levels?

Some of the comparative levels I see posted are for living people. The best way to google the information is to find an autopsy of someone that died where the blood samples were taken from the same peripheral location, the same amount of time after death under similar circumstances.

We do not have any pathologists, pharmacologists,toxicologists or any other specialist that could analyze these results. Consequently we have asked that everyone link up any information they post about this issue.
It is complex and even the experts don't always interpret the data the same.

We have some wonderful verified health professionals that can perhaps help us sort through some of the literature and that would be great!

M saw her OB/GYN a few days before she died for a physical - would that include bloodworks? If so could those samples confirm whether or not she was taking any drugs in the time leading up to when she died?

 

[Cazzie]

I follow this thread closely, but tend not to post. WBG's questions, though, really got me thinking and compelled me to weigh in because I feel like a bit of a kindred spirit with Morgan. For starters, I was stalked at age 19 -- in my case, it was a cop. I was also bullied by "mean girls" in high school.

(WBG, I'm rearranging your questions respectfully.)



My mother frequently had me tested like this as a kid. I was reading the newspaper cover to cover at age 2. In second grade I had an 8th-grade reading level. I have memories of an educational psychologist coming to our house. This was in the early- to mid-1970's, so I'm confident the testing process is much different now.



I was an active freelance music writer for several years, but have countless novels, screenplays, and short stories on my computer and in file folders that I have no desire to submit anywhere. I'm proud of them.



No one in my family knows me well. I tell them nothing of any consequence. While many people know me, only one or two friends KNOW me.



I live in my head a lot, and it sounds like Morgan did, too. Safer there.



All of the personal tidbits I've shared here bring me to this specific question ... I can't help but wonder if Morgan was a victim of child sexual abuse by a family friend, teacher, pastor, or other person trusted by the family. From what little I know of her -- and acknowledging right upfront that everything I do know is from her mom -- in my opinion, the signs are there.

Thank for your heartfelt and informative post. :heart: That took admirable courage.

I relate to everything you said, albeit in some different ways.

I'm proud that WSers are coming together in inspiring and productive ways.

:heartbeat: for us and Morgan

 

[JBean]

I actually stumbled on an article that, at the time of publishing, recorded the highest postmortem level of amitriptyline in an ami intoxication death. Conditions were surprisingly similar. But the values were so much higher than we have here- the OD was MASSIVE, that it didn't really prove to be a great comparison.
However I think it did define some toxic, fatal postmortem levels so i will see if I can find it as we may glean some good info from it after all.

 

[mysterygirl]

OK - according to the Mayo Clinical Medical Laboratory - you ADD TOGETHER the amitriptyline and nortriptyline levels - anything over 1000 nanograms per milliliter is considered 'toxic' - in other words, capable of causing lethal arrhythmia.

And I verified it IS measured in nanograms per milliliter.

A therapeutic dosage is 80-200 nanograms per milliliter. And so, only five times a therapeutic dose can be fatal. So, rather than 50+ pills......... it would be a much, much lower number, possibly only 5-10.

Source: http://www.mayomedicallaboratories.com/test-catalog/Clinical+and+Interpretive/500509

Ok revisiting this post.............wouldn't 7900 blow this out of the water?

 

[mysterygirl]

M saw her OB/GYN a few days before she died for a physical - would that include bloodworks? If so could those samples confirm whether or not she was taking any drugs in the time leading up to when she died?

It may or may not include bloodwork.

 

[JBean]

M saw her OB/GYN a few days before she died for a physical - would that include bloodworks? If so could those samples confirm whether or not she was taking any drugs in the time leading up to when she died?

She saw her ob/gyn 36 hours prior to her death-according to Toni during her interview with Tricia and I have no reason to doubt that at all. I would doubt that blood tests would be taken to specifically test for drugs though-unless someone was suspicious that she taking some. JMHO of course.

 

[JBean]

I actually stumbled on an article that, at the time of publishing, recorded the highest postmortem level of amitriptyline in an ami intoxication death. Conditions were surprisingly similar. But the values were so much higher than we have here- the OD was MASSIVE, that it didn't really prove to be a great comparison.
However I think it did define some toxic, fatal postmortem levels so i will see if I can find it as we may glean some good info from it after all.

http://het.sagepub.com/content/26/8/667.full.pdf+html

This is case of suicide. I think there may be some helpful info in there.

Please note in this case the values were 40 time higher than any toxic values ever found in literature at the time this was published.

ETA: Interestingly even in this study-with values this high there is a little discussion about using caution when interpreting concentrations found only in the blood. One must analyze the tissue distribution data and that is only if specimens were taken. They were not taken in the case I linked- nor were they taken in Morgan's case-IIRC

 

[rollinginit]

M saw her OB/GYN a few days before she died for a physical - would that include bloodworks? If so could those samples confirm whether or not she was taking any drugs in the time leading up to when she died?

Don't obgyns just test for blood sugar, blood pressure, and vaginal examines?

At least that was all mine did?

 

[raine1212]

She saw her ob/gyn 36 hours prior to her death-according to Toni during her interview with Tricia and I have no reason to doubt that at all. I would doubt that blood tests would be taken to specifically test for drugs though-unless someone was suspicious that she taking some. JMHO of course.

I agree, But IIRC TI said she had the hair brush that Morgan used that day, Would any of the hair samples if tested show any drugs? I think I will research that

 

[buffetoflies]

All of the personal tidbits I've shared here bring me to this specific question ... I can't help but wonder if Morgan was a victim of child sexual abuse by a family friend, teacher, pastor, or other person trusted by the family. From what little I know of her -- and acknowledging right upfront that everything I do know is from her mom -- in my opinion, the signs are there.

What are the signs that are there?

 

[raine1212]

Drugs in hair may be detectable for approximately 90 days, whereas drugs in urine are generally detectable for one to seven days or longer in chronic users and in oral fluid from five to 48 hours.

https://www.labcorp.com/wps/portal/...QCM_IwN3dyNXAyNjQ2MvHxcXYwMvU_2CbEdFAF6xBwY!/

 

[Cazzie]

Somewhere it was stated the original report was dated December 19. She died on December 2. That's 17 days (told you my math sucked, lol), that's where I came up with the 16 days though. That's just 3 days over 2 weeks and everything I've ever seen states that toxicology reports take at the very least 4 weeks. I have no idea why it would take 6 months to revise the report, then again, I haven't seen any actual reports in order to verify that's how long it took, or whether a valid reason for the delay was listed.

OIC.

I must have mis-read the date of the autopsy report. I've seen cases where autopsy reports were same day or next day.

So, you're not considering the posted (on the blog) second opinion as valid (regarding the dates)?

 

[MayraMM]

http://het.sagepub.com/content/26/8/667.full.pdf+html

This is case of suicide. I think there may be some helpful info in there.

Please note in this case the values were 40 time higher than any toxic values ever found in literature at the time this was published.

ETA: Interestingly even in this study-with values this high there is a little discussion about using caution when interpreting concentrations found only in the blood. One must analyze the tissue distribution data and that is only if specimens were taken. They were not taken in the case I linked- nor were they taken in Morgan's case-IIRC

Wow, VERY informative and interesting. Thank you for sharing.