CO - The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram #4

[Cazzie]

True, but Dr. Kurtzman has been in his position for a long time and I would think that much gross incompetency would have gotten him booted a lot earlier in his career. Missing an injection site under a fingernail is a different story, but missing severe throat damage, not so likely.

What is your opinion of the "natural causes" COD on 12/2 or 3/11, and then it's "suicide" sometime in June 2012 (I think? going by memory)?

Just following cases here at WS, toxicology results don't take anywhere near as long as 6 months (more like a few weeks). That was/is hinky (to me).

I'm going by Dr. Doberson's report (published on the blog) and memory on the dates.

 

[rollinginit]

BBM.

Or should have been?

See, Cazzie is right. She sums it up in 4 words.

Or should have been! Did the ME do their job? If they did, suicide can be explained, if they didn't....we will still be debating about this 2 mths from now.

It doesn't matter what you believe at this moment.......this is a strange case. It's a scary case. Scary for the fact that somebody that's a murderer may still be walking free. Or scary for the fact that we, as parents, may not know our kids as well as we think we do.

It touches a parents soul where no other case could bc of that.

JMO!JMO!JMO

 

[marycarney]

OK- whoever mentioned injection under fingernail - the volume injected would grossly distort the nail. There are no vein under the fingernails - and so a drug injected thusly would be in the subcutaneous issue and absorbed very, very slowly.

And transdermal patches release drug very slowly - over 24 hours, and even then they do not release the full amount of the drug, there is some leftover. The exception is if a heat source is applied (there have been accidental deaths with people applying heating pads over fentanyl patches)

 

[MelissaDawn]

What is your opinion of the "natural causes" COD on 12/2 or 3/11, and then it's "suicide" sometime in June 2012 (I think? going by memory)?

Just following cases here at WS, toxicology results don't take anywhere near as long as 6 months (more like a few weeks). That was/is hinky (to me).

I'm going by Dr. Doberson's report (published on the blog) and memory on the dates.

My opinion, you're right toxicology results don't usually take 6 months, but they also definitely do take longer than 16 days. We haven't seen the original autopsy report, but someone else mentioned as far as we know the original stated the COD with an addendum of "pending toxicology reports".

 

[marycarney]

And her level was 790?

I wonder why the parents were told it was one of the highest levels they had ever seen then?

IIRC the level was 7900, not 790.

 

[MayraMM]

Respectfully, we don't know to what degree the abdominal pain and cognitive impairment were present in the year leading up to her death if at all, unless I've missed where that was stated. I can see how one could think it could be a factor, but I see nothing concrete to suggest this was the case.

Respectfully, we don't know ANYTHING leading up to her death at all. Someone asked for speculation on how/why the drugs were administered. That was my opinion.

 

[Cazzie]

Heres the list for vertified posters

Professional Posters - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

There are also more updated lists on a case by case basis.

And often, a Mod will announce within a thread that so-and-so is recently verified.

 

[mysterygirl]

OK- whoever mentioned injection under fingernail - the volume injected would grossly distort the nail. There are no vein under the fingernails - and so a drug injected thusly would be in the subcutaneous issue and absorbed very, very slowly.

And transdermal patches release drug very slowly - over 24 hours, and even then they do not release the full amount of the drug, there is some leftover. The exception is if a heat source is applied (there have been accidental deaths with people applying heating pads over fentanyl patches)

But we are talking transdermal for a horse.........! She could have gotten a reasonably high level depending on the dose of the patch.

 

[K.jill]

If she was murdered it would seem like the killer planned not only how to get the drugs in her system but also how and when to get inside the house and hide without being seen. IMO that would indicate a crafty and intelligent person who is a risk taker. Why that method of murder?
Suicide does not ring true for me either.
?????
It was not natural causes so it has to be murder or suicide.
Y'all know all of this already, of course. These things keep circling in my mind...

 

[MayraMM]

I too am curious about what her friends think, or other people who knew Morgan, i.e. other relatives etc. When my sister was getting much worse before she died (not suicide but anorexia) we all saw it clearly and that she was close to death, but not my mom. She was in deep denial, I guess, because she couldn't do anything-she was over 18, and lied about eating to my mom all the time, etc...so my mom chose to believe her. I think back now and cannot recall ever seeing her actually putting a bite of food all the way into her mouth, but somehow she reduced the amount on her plate well enough. Later even napkins with food in them hidden here and there did not convince my mom, until much, much, later, long after she was dead. By then, her brain had cleared a bit (my mom's that is) and unfortunately she went back to blaming herself.

I'm so sorry for your loss. It's a perfect example of parents not wanting to see the worst in their children. We spend so much of our lives living on the edge, trying to protect them, and not being able to save them must be the worse feeling in the world.

 

[rollinginit]

There are also more updated lists on a case by case basis.

And often, a Mod will announce within a thread that so-and-so is recently verified.

Thank you. I didn't know that. I thought they updated as it went along.

 

[mysterygirl]

It takes a pretty bold person to walk up to a keypad and punch numbers.

Escalating behavior?

I'm not ruling anything out regardless of how improbable it seems.

Stranger things have happened.

 

[Confusion]

Within 4 hours of ingestion the plasma levels of amitriptyline are usually 42-82 ng/ml (62 +/- 20) from a 25 mg pill. Using the average, 7900 ng/ml would require taking about 125 pills (127 I think, but I turned off my calculator before writing it down.) That would be more than a 4 month's supply.

Mylan Fact Sheet

 

[marycarney]

But we are talking transdermal for a horse.........! She could have gotten a reasonably high level depending on the dose of the patch.

Again, IIRC, the equine drug is a gel and one of the additional ingredients is capsaicin - an irritant derived from hot peppers. She would have a burn mark from this. Additionally, is there evidence that the horse farm even HAD this drug, much less that there was any missing?

 

[Cazzie]

My opinion, you're right toxicology results don't usually take 6 months, but they also definitely do take longer than 16 days. We haven't seen the original autopsy report, but someone else mentioned as far as we know the original stated the COD with an addendum of "pending toxicology reports".

I didn't mention 16 days. ? I said "a few weeks".

OK, my question is, why did it take 6 months to revise the COD (by the same ME)? We know what TI says about what happened over time...but REALLY WHY?

 

[cluciano63]

This is exactly why it feels to me like an accident. I can't picture that the suspect would take the time to do all the research to find a drug coctail that cooincidentally contained at least one drug that could be found in the I's home, and knew exactly how to sneak in undetected and force her to inject it or shoot her up. It's so calculated, and I just don't see a young kid pulling this off. This is JMO.

Likewise, I can't picture M, a bright, sweet girl with a loving family purposely do this to herself. I know she was stressed, and I know sometimes life is tougher for the "perfect" ones, but I just can't see her doing this. (Note: please don't flame me for calling her "perfect." I know no one is perfect, but to her parents and seemingly to a lot of people, she was an amazing kid.)

The only thing left, to me, was that it was a tragic accident.

I don't think there is any type for suicide. Beautiful or plain, fat or thin, rich or poor...the brain does not discriminate any of that. If one is severely distressed and cannot see another way, I believe that their background, their loved ones, etc...all get lost in the sadness/powerlessness, etc...whatever it is that decides it for them. Perhaps some young people feel they can't achieve whatever it is they hoped, or others hoped for them, or perhaps there are outside stressors. There is no way of knowing what is going on in a person's head.

I have no idea why Morgan died, but suicide cannot be ruled out just because.

 

[mysterygirl]

IIRC the level was 7900, not 790.

Oh thanks, I was going back to look it up!

 

[marycarney]

Within 4 hours of ingestion the plasma levels of amitriptyline are usually 42-82 ng/ml (62 +/- 20) from a 25 mg pill. Using the average, 7900 ng/ml would require taking about 125 pills (127 I think, but I turned off my calculator before writing it down.) That would be more than a 4 month's supply.

Mylan Fact Sheet

This assumes 25 mg tablets. It comes in larger concentrations. And it also does not account for the fact that different people metabolize differently. NOT dissing your math - but it is important to remember that it is the differences that make medication dosing so difficult.

FOR EXAMPLE - two 100kg persons with Type One diabetes. They participate in the same physical activities and eat identical diets. Neither of their pancreases produce any insulin. Give each person the same dosage of insulin - they can have wildly different blood glucose levels.

 

[MelissaDawn]

I didn't mention 16 days. ? I said "a few weeks to...".

OK, my question is, why did it take 6 months to revise the COD (by the same ME)? We know what TI says about what happened...but REALLY WHY?

Somewhere it was stated the original report was dated December 19. She died on December 2. That's 17 days (told you my math sucked, lol), that's where I came up with the 16 days though. That's just 3 days over 2 weeks and everything I've ever seen states that toxicology reports take at the very least 4 weeks. I have no idea why it would take 6 months to revise the report, then again, I haven't seen any actual reports in order to verify that's how long it took, or whether a valid reason for the delay was listed.

 

[JBean]

Guys don't forget these are postmortem samples being used to determine antemortem dosages. There are many variables that must be considered, what peripheral area was the sample taken from? how soon after death? How much (I mean actually quantify) did postmortem redistribution factor into the levels?

Some of the comparative levels I see posted are for living people. The best way to google the information is to find an autopsy of someone that died where the blood samples were taken from the same peripheral location, the same amount of time after death under similar circumstances.

We do not have any pathologists, pharmacologists,toxicologists or any other specialist that could analyze these results. Consequently we have asked that everyone link up any information they post about this issue.
It is complex and even the experts don't always interpret the data the same.

We have some wonderful verified health professionals that can perhaps help us sort through some of the literature and that would be great!