CO - The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram #5

[Waterdogs]

I knew of someone who committed suicide after 2 weeks of an antidepressant change. Apparently, she had been on them for awhile and then they stopped working for her, so it was changed. No one in her inner circle, but family, had a clue she was having problems, and it wasn't until after she was pretty much not seen for 2 weeks due to "being really sick" that her friends finally took notice. She killed herself with her whole family, including children, in the house. It was described to me that antidepressants, specifically in the young, but also after a drug change, that suicidal thoughts can manifest and the antidepressant gives them the energy to act own it. IMO, and info can be found in google.

One thing that puzzles me is the 1st ME saying she had been taking Ami for 8-9 yrs. This report is his re-classified report, so did he not take notice of the amount of metabolite in relation to the amount of Ami, as described by the consulting ME? So, bare with me as I can't do the math, is the amount of metabolite consistent with what it would have been if she had been taking her regular dose daily? If she died within 30 min, is the rate the Ami was metabolized consistent with that 1 time overdose of 8 25mg? Is it possible to metabolize Ami to the amount of the metabolite found within 30 minutes? Or could that metabolite have already been present from previous much smaller doses, and the metabolite from the larger dose just wasn't metabolized completely yet?

I'm not trying to support or debunk any theory. I'm truly curious by the disparity between the 2 ME's reports on this issue.

I'm also curious by the qty her script was for and how many were missing. I've actually filled scripts before and then decided after the fact to not take the drug. That bottle found could very well have been a full bottle, expired, left in the cabinet, and then she started taking it. I'm not suggesting she used this script to OD on, she very well could have gotten ahold of the orange 75mg ( or maybe murdered?) We may never know, of course, but I'm just curious if she could have started taking the Ami again by using her old remaining bottles of the script. These are just my thoughts.

Eta: when I say the consulting ME - Dr Doberson, I'm referring to his findings in regards to the original Tox report.

 

[Cazzie]

Tawny, I deleted my post that you quoted.

I was all turned around... :blush:

 

[Waterdogs]

I had written up some similar info last night then, but nobody seemed too interested so I deleted it. Thanks for posting this today; I think it's important to know that amitriptyline can cause suidal ideations in children and young adults. I also think it's important to know that CO toxicity can cause permanent symptoms, including depression and anxiety and could cause someone to turn to antidepressants at times. MOO and My Own Spelling!

Yes, it is scary what the long term use of anti-depressants can do to you, permanently. Cancer is even a possibility. They are not to be taken lightly.

 

[mysterygirl]

Elavil comes in tablet form. They dissolve rather quickly. Like sugar dissolves in your coffee. When you get to the bottom of your cup, you do not see 'sugar fragments' and yet, the sugar was definitely in your coffee.

LOL yes I understand how medication can dissolve.

But with everything that she supposedly took, I'd still expect to see more proof in her gastric contents.

How do we know that she took them in pill/tab form?

Are the pills missing from her bottles?

How do we know someone didn't slip her some type of cocktail?

Where is the proof of suicide?

 

[Snowball58]

Deleting post - just saw Nurse's post above, which answers my question

 

[rollinginit]

So what is different in the two ME reports we've read? Is it just what they say COD is?

 

[Snowball58]

I don't think so, TI said that M had never been prescribed Flexeril, and she didn't even know what it was. She seemed pretty adamant about it, so I'm thinking it's not something you'd find in any records anywhere.

Thanks, I know it was discussed and just remembered wrong!

 

[rollinginit]

I thought BC pills work by preventing ovulation. Wouldn't ovulating while on the pill be possible, but unusual? I suppose it just depends on the individual and the type of pill?

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-topics/birth-control/birth-control-pill-4228.htm

"Some birth control pills contain two hormones — estrogen and progestin. These are called combination pills. Some are progestin-only pills. Most women on the pill take combination pills.

The hormones in the pill work by

Keeping eggs from leaving the ovaries. Pregnancy cannot happen if there is no egg to join with sperm.
Making cervical mucus thicker. This keeps sperm from getting to the eggs."

The only thing I know about BC pills....some people still do get pregnant on them.

 

[mysterygirl]

I'm thinking the taps, bangs, and rocks were to signal Morgan to come on out to hang out, and she did so through her window... up until the surveillance was installed. Then up to the roof? This is out there as a theory, just presenting another line of thought!



IIRC, the gutter was directly above Morgan's window. The tree being on the other side means nothing, she simply walked across the roof to go down that side.

Here it is: http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?p=1264

Again, out there theory, but just possibilities

I just don't buy that this girl was sleeping in a closet at times, having parents meet her in driveway with pepper spray if she KNEW those taps were sneakout signals.

 

[Waterdogs]

Mysterygirl, Especially when all they have to do is text.

 

[nursebeeme]

So what is different in the two ME reports we've read? Is it just what they say COD is?

there is only one ME report

the other report is a letter from Dr. Dobberson. He did not do another exam he could only review the gastric fluid results from June.

as for ovulating while on birth control: yes it can happen. That is why no birth control is touted as 100%

So either she was not taking BC or she was and she ovulated. (corpus luteum speaks for itself)
:moo:

 

[Snowball58]

The only thing I know about BC pills....some people still do get pregnant on them.

Too true, I actually posted before reading Nurse's post above. And even if she did stop taking the pill, it doesn't really mean anything - she had recently gotten out of a relationship, so that would make sense anyway. I don't think it's really relevant, just a curiosity I noticed.

 

[Lera213]

OT, my husband was just prescribed Ami 10mg

 

[laurafairlie]

I don't know what to think. I am interested in hearing the rest of the story before coming to any firm conclusions. However, IF this was suicide, I don't think the stalker (who I realize some do not believe exists) should get off scot free because the stalking could very well have been a big part of the reason that she would make such a drastic choice.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Promethazine (Phenergan)
Guafinesin (expectorant)
Cyclobenzaprine (Flexeril)
Amitriptyline (Elavil)
Flurazepam (Dalmane)
Conitine (Nicotine)

One point of agreement for both Kurtzman as well as Doberson is the amount of time from the point the drugs entered Morgans system to the point of death..
Kurtzman says minutes to an hour
Doberson says within 30 minutes

I am more unsettled than ever at this point unlike I know some others are feeling a level of resolve or somewhat closure in their opinions as far believing stronger and more certain than ever that this was in fact a suicide.. I unfortunately am not at all feeling that way and in fact feel more unsettled than ever at this point in it just does not add up for me at all..

Someone mentioned upthread the clothing is easily explained and was due to Morgans having been drinking and drugging and left her just passing out in her clothes..except for the fact Morgan was not drinking nary a drop of alcohol and imo the drugs that her system were overloaded with are just frankly not at all any of the typical prescription drugs of choice that young adults regularly use and abuse to get high, numb, or euphoric..while i understand some of thes drugs have been abused before and no one need argue that point because i do know that but nonetheless the drugs her body was overloaded with are not by any stretch of the imagination the "usual" go to pills when seeking to get high..

So, I am very much in disagreement with this being a case of an intoxicated, high girl who just died from "partying" on booze/pills.or in that state chose to kill herself..again alcohol is known for a fact to not even play a role at all at any time near or leading up to her death..

And if what we are being told is true then every instinct and intuition within my entire existence is screaming this is not suicide..again if everything we've been told is true such as:
-Morgan fine emotionally/physically at dr 36hrs prior
-Morgan upbeat and fine the entire day of Thurs 12/1 ate big breakfast helped dad and ex bf for better part of the earlier part of the day..around 2pm meeting up with D and at around 8:30pm after having left D she stops by a house where friends were and is happy/upbeat especially about D having told her how much her really liked her.
-and after 9pm at home in bedroom fine and texting with D...dad visits in her room says she was smiling and happy tho, feared it was possible she was coming down with a cough and worried about going and getting kids sick she was bbsitting for, but didnt wana cancel last minute on the mom who would be expecting her to keep the kids..ends the night telling dad how much she loves him.
-has breakfast plans to meet early next morning with D prior to her going to bbsit..

Imo if those above details are in fact true and do accurately describe her demeanor and seeming state of mind .. I find it highly unlikely this was a suicide.. If we were to learn that the above is not really an accurate account/description of Morgans last days/hours then I could quite honestly feel drastically different about suicide..but for now with what we know and how weve been told of those last days/hours I just for the life of me cannot correlate that with suicide..

Imo it would be rather simple to have confirmation of the majority of those issues if we even had one person speaking out about Morgan in those last days and was she really fine, actually happy about certain aspects(budding relationship), and more so in a content, stable state of mind.. I certainly wish we would have a friend or even close aquaintance that would grace us with their presence here at WS and offer another point of view about Morgan..that could really go a long way in helping many of us to have a better or more complete, fleshed out, all around multi faceted descriptin of just who Morgan was.

BBM ~ I'm attaching a link to the autopsy report to point out that Kutzman doesn't say 'minutes to an hour' but 'minutes to hours'. He left a wide margin of time open from the time the drugs entered M's body until the time she died.

****NO DISCUSSION****Morgan Ingram's Autopsy Report - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

look right above OTHER SIGNIFICANT CONDITIONS near the top of the report

 

[laurafairlie]

I just don't buy that this girl was sleeping in a closet at times, having parents meet her in driveway with pepper spray if she KNEW those taps were sneakout signals.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[Snowball58]

I just don't buy that this girl was sleeping in a closet at times, having parents meet her in driveway with pepper spray if she KNEW those taps were sneakout signals.

Unless initially they were sneak out signals for her to meet up with a neighborhood boy who perhaps had a girlfriend, or her parents wouldn't approve of (hence the sneaking). Then she broke it off (and later avoided said boy like the plague) but he continued coming by the house, so she then involved her parents and things escalated from there.

There could be so many explanations.

 

[laurafairlie]

I have a question related to the theory that Morgan was on prescription meds that her parents didn't know about and/or seeing a counselor or doctor that they didn't know about. I assume that as a 20 year old student that Morgan was still on her parent's health insurance. (if this assumption is wrong, the question is pretty much irrelevant). I know that we get periodic statements for our insurance company called explanation of benefits that detail what services have been paid for etc. Rxs aren't mentioned specifically, but doctors visits and procedures are. I guess I am just wondering how her parents wouldn't know about these visits if she was using their insurance.

Is the idea that she was going to a campus clinic or other free clinic? This also doesn't mean that she couldn't have been getting meds from not quite legitimate means, but if she were seeing a doctor or a mental health professional with the ability to prescribe it seems that her parents would have known about it.

I could be totally off base, which is why I'm asking.

 

[laurafairlie]

Unless initially they were sneak out signals for her to meet up with a neighborhood boy who perhaps had a girlfriend, or her parents wouldn't approve of (hence the sneaking). Then she broke it off (and later avoided said boy like the plague) but he continued coming by the house, so she then involved her parents and things escalated from there.

There could be so many explanations.

But if that is the case, isn't that still stalking, despite how it began?

 

[lost indie]

I just don't buy that this girl was sleeping in a closet at times, having parents meet her in driveway with pepper spray if she KNEW those taps were sneakout signals.

And.....once she left the driveway she was totally safe out in the world. If she safe out there she should have moved in with friends for a while...

jmo