CO - The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram #5

[Snowball58]

This has actually been discussed and theorized as a possibility a couple of times in previous threads..with the levels being what they were found to be in Morgans system at the time of her death indicates however that this is not a possibility..(am via mobile at the moment so unable to link to prior discussions where the exact reasons show there was not ami use prior or leading up to death)..but basically in laymen terms the amitriptyline metabolizes into nortriptyline and Morgans levels at the time of death were 7900ng amitriptyline:2900ng nortriptyline..this ratio shows that the ami was ingested/adminstered in one large dose rather than more than one dose/doses having been taken over a course of time prior to her dying..it is the large difference in the amitriptyline vs nortriptyline that show this..

If there had been more than one dose of the ami over any period of time prior to/leading up to her death those two numbers would have been extremely close where as in Morgan they were extremely far apart 7900 amitriptyline : 2900 nortriptyline..

Thus indicating there was no building up or doses given/taken in the time leading up to her death but rather the ami was one large massive dose given close before death..

Not only does Doberman state this but also several here with medical backgrounds have also stated that these particular ratios/levels indicate a single large dose of ami..also easily confirmed in doing a bit of research on the internet(which all of the above mentioned sources are in much better detail thoroughly explained in the previous threads where this subject was discussed)

HTH

My understanding was that no one here on WS was ever able to say for sure how large a dose would have been needed to achieve these levels? But it does seem that it would have been one large dose - I don't dispute that. The single large dose that killed her isn't exclusive of the possibility that she was taking a prescribed dose over a period of time.

But in any case, couldn't she have opted to commit suicide via Ami overdose? Put a large amount in her water bottle and drink it down? She had a horse at the stables, and Tony said that some vets and stables in the area had Ami in liquid form easily accessible at the time - so Morgan may not have even needed to use pills for this - she may have recognized the name and taken some with her. Or perhaps she polished off the bottle of her own pills, dissolving them in water. Who knows, but the point is that this drug was familiar to her, readily accessible via prescription or possibly at the stable she frequents, and was the cause of her death.

My speculation is that she was taking the prescribed amount for some time and suffered the severe side effects over many months, which included hallucinations and perception of stalking (which the parents believed, because they weren't aware that she was taking meds with these side effects.) This explains her carrying water everywhere she went, Toni's contradictory accounts of her mood and health in the weeks and days before her death (side effects include general malaise, moodiness, and yet also exaggerated feelings of well being, so she very well could have been bouncing back and forth between extremes.) The side effects eventually led to suicidal thoughts and she killed herself with an Ami overdose. The few "facts" we have to work with could be attributed to rational incidents but were instead interpreted by the distraught family as evidence of stalking.

Isn't this just as plausible as the stalker theory believed by the family? To me, it's more plausible than a gang of stalkers who manage to get near the house (and even enter the house) yet never get captured on video, and who managed to murder Morgan without leaving any evidence of having entered the house, who escalate from 4 months of window tapping to murder using one (or more) prescription drugs that they somehow know she had been taking not too long ago.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Here's a start to what type of evidence one may have/need/use in a trial. In order to gather evidence, one must first have a case.

http://evidence.uslegal.com/discovery/colorado-discovery-law/

So, how does one obtain police records and reports to build a case?

 

[hambirg]

I tend to think the opposite way, lol. Without official documents and hard evidence speculating into the unknown is only getting everything confused. We could easily narrow down the list and rule out some of the extremely unlikely theories if we had anything official to go on. Just because someone comes up with a relatively plausible theory doesn't mean there's evidence to match it - and without evidence this isn't going anywhere.

But how often do we have those types of things in a case? I know in the Elizabeth Collins and Lyric Cook-Morrisey threads all we have is a very poor quality cctv clip and the knowledge that their bikes were found at a lake about a mile away and that the girls are gone. There are multiple threads for that case, with all kinds of various scenarios, with nothing to go on except that paltry little bit.

What if we look at this case in the same way? We have a night cam pic, a shoe print found outside Morgan's window, and a young girl that died of Amitriptyline intoxication. There are a myrad of things we could sleuth here. How about the shoe? I agree it's an Etnies, but I haven't been able to find the exact one. There are literally hundreds of pics of people who ran in Morgan's circle of friends' shoes (skateboarders take a lot of pics that include their shoes.) It may not prove who killed Morgan, if she was killed. But it might tell who was standing outside of her window on one of the window tapping nights.

MOO

 

[Snowball58]

Show me a case where we've ever had all the facts. Because of Florida's Sunshine Laws, the case against Casey Anthony comes the closest and even with the facts, that didn't turn out the way the majority of people wanted it too.

LE hardly ever releases any facts unless it serves them in some way to help solve the case. Since TI doesn't even have a case open for her daughter, she can say what she wants I guess. That could be why she hasn't released actual copies of this and that though because it could be evidence if there ever is a case someday.

Morgan's is a case without a case. It's a free country so TI can tell her story if she wants too. Other people have their voice too and are free to use it.

In most cases you have interviews with multiple players, media appearances and reports, police statements and press conferences, etc. Without a case, of course we don't have any of that in this instance and must rely on Toni's blog for info, which is by definition, one sided. Obviously.

But, like any other case. when a key player relays the events surrounding the crime and things don't quite add up, we are compelled to discuss it.

The source of my frustration with this family is that they are trying to convince the public that a crime has occurred, yet they're not being forthcoming with all of the information (I don't mean that they need to release sensitive info that they've been advised to keep private. I mean that there are still 2+ months worth of activity that Toni DOES intend to share with the world, yet she's insisting on posting it day by day.)

Since the family has chosen this format (which is their right), I feel there's no reason not to critique it or analyze it day by day in the same way we analyze any other case.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

My guess is that TI means she suspects there was a gang mentality involved with what happened in Morgan's life. There may have been only one or two people that took physical action; throwing stuff at windows and keying a derogatory message on their car and possibly administering a lethal dose of drugs to Morgan in some nefarious way. Even if death was unintended, the truth should be told.

We don't know if M's social media was receiving threatening messages or questionable comments either.

 

[mysterygirl]

If she would have been taking ami on a regular basis wouldn't more ami have been seem is her tissue?

 

[hambirg]

My understanding was that no one here on WS was ever able to say for sure how large a dose would have been needed to achieve these levels? But it does seem that it would have been one large dose - I don't dispute that. The single large dose that killed her isn't exclusive of the possibility that she was taking a prescribed dose over a period of time.

But in any case, couldn't she have opted to commit suicide via Ami overdose? Put a large amount in her water bottle and drink it down? She had a horse at the stables, and Tony said that some vets and stables in the area had Ami in liquid form easily accessible at the time - so Morgan may not have even needed to use pills for this - she may have recognized the name and taken some with her. Or perhaps she polished off the bottle of her own pills, dissolving them in water. Who knows, but the point is that this drug was familiar to her, readily accessible via prescription or possibly at the stable she frequents, and was the cause of her death.

My speculation is that she was taking the prescribed amount for some time and suffered the severe side effects over many months, which included hallucinations and perception of stalking (which the parents believed, because they weren't aware that she was taking meds with these side effects.) This explains her carrying water everywhere she went, Toni's contradictory accounts of her mood and health in the weeks and days before her death (side effects include general malaise, moodiness, and yet also exaggerated feelings of well being, so she very well could have been bouncing back and forth between extremes.) The side effects eventually led to suicidal thoughts and she killed herself with an Ami overdose. The few "facts" we have to work with could be attributed to rational incidents but were instead interpreted by the distraught family as evidence of stalking.

Isn't this just as plausible as the stalker theory believed by the family? To me, it's more plausible than a gang of stalkers who manage to get near the house (and even enter the house) yet never get captured on video, and who managed to murder Morgan without leaving any evidence of having entered the house, who escalate from 4 months of window tapping to murder using one (or more) prescription drugs that they somehow know she had been taking not too long ago.

To put it simply, if she had been taking the ami earlier, her nortriptyline levels would have been higher. They weren't, so she wasn't. And we still have to account for the flexeril and the dalmane that were in her system.

Someone was caught on tape, at least once that we know about. Allegedly at least twice. We don't know if they left evidence because it appears that none was collected, or what was collected was never processed. We know they didn't take the sheets, or take her water bottle, or fingerprint the house. It's hard to say that the stalker didn't leave evidence. They could have, we just don't know.

 

[Confusion]

If she said that, like I wrote it, it would be slander though since MI's death has been ruled a suicide. TI is addressing a twofold, no threefold, problem; the stalking, M's death and the cause of her death as ruled along with disbelief of it being a correct ruling.

Sorry, I hate to be a nit picker, but that wouldn't be slander - it would be libel. Slander is spoken, and libel is written. It makes absolutely no diffence, but I'm always a stickler for details. Carry on! :blushing:

 

[Snowball58]

Several witness statements (although most are from the same witness)
No evidence of her ever having the fatal drugs (she had amitriptyline, but not in that quantity, and hers were still accounted for)
Determining the official COD is natural causes or suicide will normally stop the investigation and close the case, there's no way to know what may have been missed because it wasn't investigated
There was someone caught on video running from the house the night of her death
Alarms and lights activated by motion

Can you please link to the several witness statements?

Can you please link to where it states that her old prescription was accounted for? (and "lack of evidence" doesn't equal "fact")

Can you please link to the video of a person running away from the house on the night of her death? I'd call that a bombshell. But I haven't seen it.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

In most cases you have interviews with multiple players, media appearances and reports, police statements and press conferences, etc. Without a case, of course we don't have any of that in this instance and must rely on Toni's blog for info, which is by definition, one sided. Obviously.

But, like any other case. when a key player relays the events surrounding the crime and things don't quite add up, we are compelled to discuss it.

The source of my frustration with this family is that they are trying to convince the public that a crime has occurred, yet they're not being forthcoming with all of the information (I don't mean that they need to release sensitive info that they've been advised to keep private. I mean that there are still 2+ months worth of activity that Toni DOES intend to share with the world, yet she's insisting on posting it day by day.)

Since the family has chosen this format (which is their right), I feel there's no reason not to critique it or analyze it day by day in the same way we analyze any other case.

Yes, true. As information is released though, I'm not finding it too difficult to plug it into the existing story. That's the way LE does it too. If they eventually find a body, we've already been discussing the case for weeks, months or even years.

At least we know that by December 2, TI will give us what she had up until then but, I believe, it will go beyond that date as I don't think TI's own investigation got going until the horror of it all began to sink in.

 

[Tawny]

Like others, I worry for TI and the family and what may happen as a result of her blatantly accusing certain persons of crimes. If I were named, and hadn't been charged with anything, I would be livid. Especially if I were relatively innocent (I say relatively because certain persons did have prior arrests lol).

I just hope she is seeking legal counsel on what she can and cannot say in her blog.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Sorry, I hate to be a nit picker, but that wouldn't be slander - it would be libel. Slander is spoken, and libel is written. It makes absolutely no diffence, but I'm always a stickler for details. Carry on! :blushing:

No prob - keep me straight. You're right and I remember having a class that covered the difference in a communications course.
Probably passed the test too - lotta good that did me - lol!

Whisper ~ TI's probably guilty of both. Thought ~ has she used last names?

 

[gitana1]

Show me a case where we've ever had all the facts. Because of Florida's Sunshine Laws, the case against Casey Anthony comes the closest and even with the facts, that didn't turn out the way the majority of people wanted it too.

LE hardly ever releases any facts unless it serves them in some way to help solve the case. Since TI doesn't even have a case open for her daughter, she can say what she wants I guess. That could be why she hasn't released actual copies of this and that though because it could be evidence if there ever is a case someday.

Morgan's is a case without a case. It's a free country so TI can tell her story if she wants too. Other people have their voice too and are free to use it.

In most cases, we receive a lot of evidence, sunshine laws or not. We hear about police reports, prior court cases the victim or named POI or suspects may have been involved in, and various witness statements from other than family of the victim alone.

Here, the only evidence we have is one opinion letter from an ME and statements, an unauthenticated photo of a possible stalker and of a footprint, all from a person who may have a good reason for not accepting reality (or not).

Thus far, it's much different than many cases we examine. However, I have a feeling there will eventually be more.

Several witness statements (although most are from the same witness)
No evidence of her ever having the fatal drugs (she had amitriptyline, but not in that quantity, and hers were still accounted for)
Determining the official COD is natural causes or suicide will normally stop the investigation and close the case, there's no way to know what may have been missed because it wasn't investigated
There was someone caught on video running from the house the night of her death
Alarms and lights activated by motion

Okay, can you link to anything suggesting Morgan never had amitryptiline? Or that any unused pills she may have had were accounted for (I.e., how many were left over in the bottle and that they knew how many had been there before that night or since she stopped taking them?)

Further, we just don't know how many pills she would have needed to take to cause the levels we saw as reported by Dr. Doberson because we are not forensic toxicologists and we don't know time of death and various other variables necessary to that determination.

Moreover, we have no proof that homicide wasn't investigated. People keep saying that but we have nothing to prove that. In fact, we have the opposite which is LE (whether lying or not) stating they treat every such a death as a homicide but that they let the evidence take them where it will.

That indicates they indeed initially treated this case as a homicide. Remember, the autopsy report that would have shut down the investigation occurred AFTER the death had been investigated by arriving LE. Mom says they did not take bedding. But we don't know that they failed to dust for prints, or take DNA samples, or scrapping from under her fingernails, or photos of her body positioning, or examined window sills, door jambs, locks, video evidence, etc.

Finally, mom states they have video of someone running away from the house that night. That is HUGE. Let's see it. Until I do, a statement from a grieving mom just won't suffice. I mean, I see people stating they can tell the exact build, body shape and head shape of the person in the cam shot, as well as are able to see a mask on his or her face, night vision goggles attached to the head, and that the figure is wearing a vest and carrying something under their shirt. I can't make out much at all. Just a person looking sideways, possible wearing a hat and a jacket. Reminds me of the posts claiming they could see the precise outline of Caylee's body in a stain in the trunk of casey's car.

You can see whatever you desire to see, ultimately, but in my experience, none of those types of things people think they see in vague photos are argued in court as evidence. It's just hype.

Given that, let's see the tape. Let's see it.

 

[Snowball58]

To put it simply, if she had been taking the ami earlier, her nortriptyline levels would have been higher. They weren't, so she wasn't.

Can you please link me to where a medical professional has determined this to be true, or is this contained in the released medical report (I just re-read it and don't see any reference to this?)

You state it as fact that she unequivocally couldn't possibly have been taking prescription levels of Ami, and I think that kind of statement needs to be backed up.

As for Flexeril, I have that in my medicine cabinet too. Toni posted on her blog that Morgan had some back pain at some point during all of this, and had to go to the chiropractor for an adjustment. That's what my prescription is for too - back pain. Pain and headache are also side effects of Ami. Perhaps she had been also taking muscle relaxers from time to time, hence finding it in her system upon examination.

I'm not married to my latest theory - it's just a theory that, IMO, is just as plausible (if not more so) as the stalker and murder theory.

 

[AbbeyR]

I'm not following you. She posted a letter to the editor, written by someone else, chastising a reporter for the media not fact checking before running with a story. So that means she should post all the evidence she has on her blog?

The level of responsibility for the media and for someone telling their version of a story, as they see it, on a blog is not the same. I think we've already discussed that this is TI's account of what happened as she documented it. I don't think the goal of the blog is for the public to hear and try the case. I think it is simply to tell the story, and raise enough issues and questions to garner the attention of somebody in authority to re-investigate Morgan's case.

Yes, I agree that the level of responsibility is different for MSM vs. a mom telling her story. However, my point was that the letter to the editor, which Mom obviously agrees with enough to post twice, stresses that: when writing about an investigative matter, it is one's responsibility to fact find, to see all pertinent documents pertaining to the circumstances prior to and after the death, instead of "taking a hand fed story and running with it, regardless of damage said story could cause.

I think this point is a valid one, whether it is in reference to a local news article or a blog with one million hits.

 

[21merc7]

The better approach would have been to take all the documentation and whatever photo, video evidence to the local prosecuting attorney to see if a case could be opened. If that failed, the could try the Attorney General. If that was a no go, they may have gained some idea of where they really do stand, and where they could or couldn't go. And guess what, that is free, no donations necessary. And, it doesn't put them in a potentially explosive, possible backfire with major consequences, legal situation.

They have chosen this route, which seems like a lot of propaganda and no follow through, and it may complicate their lives. It may not give the returns they wanted.

If they want the case looked into, they will have to take the proper steps, starting with the first paragraph herein.

If there already is an attorney, I want to know why the blog is not now private.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

There's a reason no MSM source can tell the story Mom is telling -- because there are standards about verification and I think most people would agree that there are good reasons for this. One shouldn't have to sue after the fact, to avoid being publicly called out as a stalker and murderer if there is zero evidence to support this accusation.

That's what suing is. That's why when a famous person has had enough of false accusations, they sue a publication or whomever. Oprah was sued by the beef industry folks because of one comment she made (that nobody imo would think she intended as a means to harm the beef industry when she made it). That's not a great example. Let's see, anyway, when you're not guilty and if it bothers you enough, you can fight back. If you're a regular person, and not a criminal, you'll do it within the law.

 

[mysterygirl]

Elavil is often given FOR pain.

 

[Confusion]

Can you please link to the several witness statements?

Can you please link to where it states that her old prescription was accounted for? (and "lack of evidence" doesn't equal "fact")

Can you please link to the video of a person running away from the house on the night of her death? I'd call that a bombshell. But I haven't seen it.

You have links to the blog, just like I do. I said there are several witness statements, not there are statements from several witnesses. (I also included that most of them were from the same witness). I do read everything that is written here, in the blog and in the comments; if everybody did, there might be less disagreement about what's written there. I know that everything I posted can be found in the blog, in the comments under the blog entries or in the radio interview (other than the comment about several witness statements, but the radio interview and blog entries ARE witness statements since she is telling what she saw, heard, etc.)

 

[Snowball58]

Elavil is often given FOR pain.

Well there you go. Perhaps she was taking it for pain. That ties in with Flexeril too. So maybe she started taking it again for back pain - I speculated that she was taking Ami again for some reason and suffered from side effects - I don't think the reason matters?