CO - The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram #5

[mysterygirl]

You have links to the blog, just like I do. I said there are several witness statements, not there are statements from several witnesses. (I also included that most of them were from the same witness). I do read everything that is written here, in the blog and in the comments; if everybody did, there might be less disagreement about what's written there. I know that everything I posted can be found in the blog, in the comments under the blog entries or in the radio interview (other than the comment about several witness statements, but the radio interview and blog entries ARE witness statements since she is telling what she saw, heard, etc.)

Correct.

And the person on tape has not been shown yet. I'm not sure that it will be...hopefully so.

 

[gitana1]

Don't forget that we don't have the whole story yet; TI is only up to September 26, and Morgan died on December 2.

For me, it just means that I have tentative opinions that may very change as we get more of TI's narrative (and then also if we get evidence).

It's an analogy to discussing a crime before the trial, IMO.

(not directly to you only, gitana)......

Re: the "one source" issue....

We've had collaboration on several things from Morgan's Father (he's verified here...search his posts; I believe they are all on thread #2). And he has commented on the blog and even wrote a couple entries.

True. We could get more info indicating definitively that more people were involved. I can wait.

As to the one source issue, it is what it is for now. I don't really have a problem discussing the case based on the info from that one source. It's what there is.

But a lot of this thread is devoted to using the "facts" to argue that there is a concrete case for stalking and murder or that there is not - rather than who or how -, with some arguing there are almost no facts and others taking every thing mom says as irrefutable evidence and even inferring additional facts from what she says. I think we have to be careful with that.

But I have no problem discussing possibilities based on the one source we have, which, if you look through my posts at all, you'll see that I do (being careful since shortly after I first began posting on this thread, not to implicate any specific person as a possible suspect, but just looking at the what ifs).

I actually think discussing the what ifs and possibilities from a one source vantage point is interesting as is arguing about what the facts are at all.

I've certainly learned a lot and have had errors in certain things I thought were true or not true, cleared up, as a result!

 

[mysterygirl]

Well there you go. Perhaps she was taking it for pain. That ties in with Flexeril too. So maybe she started taking it again for back pain - I speculated that she was taking Ami again for some reason and suffered from side effects - I don't think the reason matters?

Maybe so. I was just letting you know it's prescribed for pain itself.

How many pills were left in her bottles from a year and a half earlier? I don't know.

But I have read that medical examiners can determine chronic usage of this drug based on the redistribution of it and where it's found.

So someone should be able to tell that from the reports.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

gitana1, I get it. This isn't a police case which is why TI started her blog. She is promoting stalking awareness while, at the same time, crying out about her daughter's death and the circumstances surrounding it.

This is not a formal case - we know that. :waitasec:

I wouldn't want to be accused either but I can't help but think that TI isn't just hurling arrows at some random person. If she's wrong, it should come out especially if someone with authority would pay attention.

Are police allowed to publically state why they made the decisions they did and support their decision with their documents too? I mean this woman is crying out for help.

We're dense if we think egos have never stood in the way of finding truth.

 

[fowltemptress]

And I - for one - think this would be an excellent approach. Stop dragging it out (allowing any potential 'stalkers' or 'murderers' an opportunity to get away), lay out ALL the evidence, and let LE do their job. If there is evidence LE does not have, WHY would you keep it form them? It makes NO SENSE AT ALL.

I don't think she kept the evidence from them, it seemed more like they "sat" on items/documents/photos/video footage for months and when she finally went to retrieve them, LE said that they didn't get around to reviewing them(paraphrasing but somebody correct me if I'm wrong).

IMO, this is probably when she decided to start thinking about taking things into her own hands, she submitted the photos and videos but, I was under the impression that M's personal electronic devices were collected at the time of her death. I assume TI had not been able to review those yet, hence possibly needing a few more months to scrutinize and develop a "bad taste in her mouth" about local LE?

Once again, we don't know how many attempts she made to inquire about their findings at that time(pre-blog). Judging by her resentment for their procedures and lack of responsibility for shortcomings in their investigation, it appears as though they have had the same lackluster performance in the attention to and care of the victim and victim's families. This all could have been sorted out if LE had enduldged her inquiries and answered her questions. Until LE presents any account of their actions, in regards to the mysterious death of Morgan Ingram, all we have to go on is TI's version so it is very one sided but not completely.

Inactivity and silence speaks almost as loudly as a grief-stricken, incensed mother of a tragic circumstance...IMHO

 

[rollinginit]

Well.....I just don't get why everybody gets kind of snotty about everybody elses opinion. Hey, I think we can all agree, we all want to know what happened to m.

The ONLY proof we have is that m is dead.

We have one 2nd opinion report written by another ME that was shown online. We can all agree that is a factual document? (we haven't seen the first report)

And we only have ONE statement from LE in this case that says they went out to the house 50 times and found no proof and they agreed with the first ME's report.

Come on everybody. We all pretty much knew we would be sleuthing a blog during most of this unless it got more media attention....or unless mom posted more official documents. Who's knows, maybe somebody will pick this up, and we will get some documents.

At this point......I don't believe anybody is wrong or right. Now, that's not saying I have my own opinion.

Let's all be a little patience. I do believe some answers will be answered. Maybe not all of them, but some. I suspect that people that doubt, will contuine to doubt, just like those that believe, will contuine to believe unless something proves one way or the other.

Okay....now it's time to listen to "we are the world" LOL

 

[Confusion]

<SNIP
Okay, can you link to anything suggesting Morgan never had amitryptiline? Or that any unused pills she may have had were accounted for (I.e., how many were left over in the bottle and that they knew how many had been there before that night or since she stopped taking them?)

Further, we just don't know how many pills she would have needed to take to cause the levels we saw as reported by Dr. Doberson because we are not forensic toxicologists and we don't know time of death and various other variables necessary to that determination.

Moreover, we have no proof that homicide wasn't investigated. People keep saying that but we have nothing to prove that. <SNIP>

I'll start by saying I have never seen anything to suggest she never took amitriptyline; by all accounts she took it when she was between the ages of 13 and 18. What I said was:

No evidence of her ever having the fatal drugs (she had amitriptyline, but not in that quantity,

She never had a prescription for Flexeril, Dalmane or liquid amitriptyline. Her prescribed dose of amitriptyline tablets was not enough to cause the high levels found in her system, and her pills were accounted for.

Because I have no proof that Ti is lying, I'm taking her word for what happened. She stated that the first responders found her old prescriptions, counted the pills and found none missing.

 

[SmoothOperator]

ok, so now it is escalauted to gang stalking? what do we know of that? did it just turn to that this date?

NO, not at all is this just being brought up by the family..in fact there is documented proof that this has long since been brought up by the family in Toni's having specifically stated their belief/opinion was that it was possible, if not probable that this was NOT a lone stalker..but rather that it was likely to be several involved, even possibly someone Morgan actually was "friends" with and had a level of trust in place..also possibly atleast one female..this theory of there being multiple people involved did not just come out of the blue today and in searching moms blog theres proof where she has long since being viewing the multiple people involved as a very real possibility.



mine certainly is. I want to see the police reports....the initial autopsy....in the beginning she said she didn't have them yet and alluded to being afraid to ask since she felt they were not on great terms with le.

Tricia suggested their getting an atty which would be the person who would be able to assist the family in their not only gaining access and copies of all police reports but also even such docs as all detectives personal notes made about issues of the case..that was last week and since that time the family appears to now have put into action some of those suggestions Tricia had shared with them and I believe with their having the assistance of an atty they will soon have the access/copies of all reports, notes, and docs regarding the case.


yet another inconsistency....if she wants people to help we need the true accurate information.

not really imo..we have been told of there being multiple drugs and while we have discussed at great length some of the very specifics about some of the drugs there are others..so, tho we have not discussed those at great lengths it doesnt however negate their existence..


I think there is a reason she posted the letter agreeing with her theory and not the autopsy....I mean why not post both?hopefully with someone having recently suggested to Toni to also scan in and post Dr. Kurtzman's first and possibly even second PER+labs as well..maybe she'll be willing to do so as she's quite graciously been accomadating to several requests, questions, or suggestions thus far.

*as far as there being some ulterior motive for only posting Doberson(or Doberman's) recent findings I see it differently in that all along Toni had made mention of Doberson's recent involvement and that he had been presently reviewing any/all testing and docs available him to give a second opinion on Morgan's COD/MOD..the second opinion was something that they had been seeking for some time and were anxiously awaiting..and during that time while Doberson was reviewing it and PRIOR TO THE PARENTS EVEN KNOWING WHAT THOSE FINDINGS OR SECOND OPINION WOULD BE..EVEN AT THAT POINT TONI STATED THAT SHE WOULD POST THOSE RESULTS WHEN DOBERSON HAD COMPLETED IT AND SENT THOSE FINDINGS TO THE PARENTS..

therefor exactly what we saw happen when they received those findings of Dr. Doberson Toni immediately scanned in and posted them just as she stated she would..

So, in looking at it in the full context of how or why it came to be that those findings were posted imo it is perfectly logical ..



EXACTLY! Something is not right about that photo, I can't quite put my finger on it.

as in tampering with the photo or altering?.. I believe thats what I understand that your opinion is in "something is not right about that photo".. The photo posted on the blog(wildlife cam snapshot of "stalker" in driveway immediately after sheriff deputies are seen leaving) the photo has been run through software that confirms the photo in terms of "photoshopping", digitally altering, editing or adding to the image, or superimposing or overlaying of multiple images, or any other technical altering of the image HAS NOT BEEN DONE TO THE PHOTO..

but in jumping off of that same issue(and not directed at the above post specifically but rather the issue in general).. This is one of the most baffling theories that ive seen suggested..for there to have been actual nefarious intent of editing surveillance images to depict someone or something other than the factual truth is criminal..not only criminal but an easily prosecutable criminal act that can/does include jail time and fines..

If this family had so much as even one time altered an image to depict someone/something that was not there is fraudulent charge, filing of false police and incident reports charges, tampering with evidence charges, falsifying evidence charges, lying to law enforcement charges and several other prosecutable criminal offenses.. I havent a shadow of a doubt if this LE agency had any hint of a thought any evidence had been altered or falsified this would have been brought forth to the public knowledge if even represented in just a small misdemeanor charge for the simple fact of setting the record straight about the reality of the case and immediately taking the heat off of LE and ME for good where Morgan Ingram is concerned..

Imo its not a realistic possibility..and again not directed at the above post specifically but rather jumping off from that and addressing this issue that has in fact been alleged WRT the wildlife cam stalker snapshot in particular.

.

My replies/comments are above BBM..

 

[Cazzie]

new blog post (a sentimental one)

http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?p=1410

 

[AbbeyR]

Garfield County Sheriff Lou Vallario told CBS4 his department spent a lot of time working on the case, and that it will remain closed.

“We investigate every death we come across as a homicide and then again we let the facts and the evidence to take us where it’s going to take us,” he said. “We have no reasonable suspicion, let alone probable cause that we have any suspect.”

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2012/09/07/parents-say-daughter-was-murdered-want-investigation-reopened/

 

[rollinginit]

Can anybody answer this......if the parents want this investigated, the first step would be to get the COD changed? The LE wont even touch this without a change of COD, right?

I really don't know...so I'm curious

 

[Marshmallow]

BBM
No - it's saying a book report is accurate but not being allowed to read the book.

exactly how I feel.


With what's been given, after emotional response is removed from the equation, I see a young lady who seemed to be slowly fading and I think from what I've read, she overmedicated herself, perhaps in an attempt to heal her demons. I wouldn't want to think it might happen either but I'm not sure blaming innocent neighbors is the best thing for her parents to do.

 

[fowltemptress]

Didn't we also have a thread of questions to post for the parents? Am I hallucinating that? I can't find it...someone please help me out? Maybe I'm thinking of a different case...

Should be in the "Similar Threads" at the bottom of every page, but now I see it is not so here goes

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185307"]**NO DISCUSSION** Morgan Ingram-The Questions **LIST ONLY** - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[JanIreland]

i followed this story from the start but at this stage i feel like just checking back in a month ...it's way too dragged out and i nearly feel it unfair to have people look at it for three months before getting the full story , meaning that most days our opinions change from day to day and i have to say the days where nothing goes on are just wasted when their are people out there trying to help get to the bottom of this . I think it needs to be handled differently , it almost feels like expecting 3 months of peoples time and it's a little odd . i feel guilty saying that but it's just MOO .
That being said i feel alot for them and Morgan

 

[21merc7]

Can anybody answer this......if the parents want this investigated, the first step would be to get the COD changed? The LE wont even touch this without a change of COD, right?

I really don't know...so I'm curious

No.
They could take everything to the prosecuting attorney.

They could have an attorney look it over, and the proper experts.

If either of these two sees a need to look into it further, it would happen. COD would be changed after the fact, if there is a criminal case.

 

[Confusion]

Can anybody answer this......if the parents want this investigated, the first step would be to get the COD changed? The LE wont even touch this without a change of COD, right?

I really don't know...so I'm curious

I don't believe they're allowed to reopen a case unless the COD is offically suspicious. I can't see that being changed unless someone higher in the chain of command investigates the current findings and requires changes. MOO

 

[gitana1]

gitana1, I get it. This isn't a police case which is why TI started her blog. She is promoting stalking awareness while, at the same time, crying out about her daughter's death and the circumstances surrounding it.

This is not a formal case - we know that. :waitasec:

I wouldn't want to be accused either but I can't help but think that TI isn't just hurling arrows at some random person. If she's wrong, it should come out especially if someone with authority would pay attention.

Are police allowed to publically state why they made the decisions they did and support their decision with their documents too? I mean this woman is crying out for help.

We're dense if we think egos have never stood in the way of finding truth.

Oh, please don't lump me in with those who keep hammering that we can't discuss anything, really, because it's not a formal case or that the evidence is from one source. I have never said that or inferred any of that.

You said that in few cases do we have facts. I was simply pointing out that IMO, that's just not the case at all.

When I see what appears to be a misstatement, I respond. Others have done the same when I have made a statement they felt was incorrect. I've learned from that.

And yes, Ms. Ingram is crying out for help but instead of hiring an attorney and demanding all police reports, investigative notes etc., as I know she realizes by now she's entitled to and which are free, since she reads this site, she is writing a compelling, emotional blog.

That's cool but people have given her solid suggestions that she has not accepted. Her reasoning for not even trying to get police reports is unfathomable to me, especially at this point. I mean, I really do understand wading through grief through an emotionally charged blog about your beloved, deceased child, but either you want to investigate her death or not. You start that process by gathering evidence and enlisting professionals to help determine if LE did it's job or if not, whether higher authorities need to get involved.

I am trying to help. I have given suggestions: Get the evidence and hire an attorney.

As to the police, I am positive that their legal department do not want them opening their traps about a closed case that is being brought to the forefront again by a distraught and grieving mother. Either way, they lose. If they hammer on every reason why they feel there was no evidence of stalking or murder, they can make mom and/or daughter seem crazy and that's just cruel. If they keep their mouths shut, people may think they are hiding things and in that way they lose. But, it's the lesser of two evils.

The question is not why the police have not been more vocal about their reasoning, their investigation, etc. It's why mom has not been more proactive in accumulating documents to show there was, indeed, evidence that this could be more than natural causes or suicide, that LE and the first coroner dropped the ball and that the case needs to be reopened by a different authority and LE's incompetence investigated.

I agree that it's dense to think egos don't get in the way of finding the truth. It happens all the time. Small time LE departments can be the worst when it comes to that. But the ball is in mom's court, not LE's. :moo:

 

[gitana1]

BBM
No - it's saying a book report is accurate but not being allowed to read the book.

Yes. That is precisely the logical analogy.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Several witness statements (although most are from the same witness)
No evidence of her ever having the fatal drugs (she had amitriptyline, but not in that quantity, and hers were still accounted for)
Determining the official COD is natural causes or suicide will normally stop the investigation and close the case, there's no way to know what may have been missed because it wasn't investigated
There was someone caught on video running from the house the night of her death
Alarms and lights activated by motion

There was? There was someone on video seen running from the house the night of M's death?

Where's that info - on the blog? If that's true, that's big and would definitely be usable evidence to show someone had at least been lurking there. Do we know what time the video indicates they were captured on the property?
If M's soul had already left her body, that would be God's intervention considering how difficult it was to capture any person on tape or otherwise. So, they showed this tape to LE?

 

[Confusion]

No.
They could take everything to the prosecuting attorney.

They could have an attorney look it over, and the proper experts.

If either of these two sees a need to look into it further, it would happen. COD would be changed after the fact, if there is a criminal case.

Are you a prosecuting attorney or something? I'm curious to find where it's written that a case closed because the COD was determined not to be suspicious can be reopened without first having the COD changed. If you aren't a verified source, could you please post a link. If you are a verified source, I'll just take your word for it.

TIA