Conrad Murray trial -Day eight.

[Isabelle]

The witness is blowing the DT theory that Michael ate the lorazepam or drank the propofol, hehe!

 

[Soulmagent]

But the higher number was in his stomach right? Isnt that what they said? Not the lower one.

 

[Isabelle]

The witness is correct. Urine level to determine blood level and vice versa can't be worked backwards. It would be apples to oranges since there are too many variables.

Flanagan should study pharmacokinetics before trying to outsmart a toxicologist. Defending one propofol case in his life just won't make him the expert he thinks he is.

 

[Soulmagent]

BOMBSHELL

Urine reflects past drug use!

I always wanted to say that.

 

[Isabelle]

Equilibrium is the wrong word Flanagan. Renal clearance of drugs/metabolites can vary from individual to individual and can be affected by many factors, one as simple as hydration.

 

[octobermoon]

Thanks Isabelle for explaining this!!!!

 

[Talina]

What difference does it make what proportions of the drugs were that were tested positive in the syringe?

 

[octobermoon]

I think its over for today. See ya'll later.

 

[borndem]

About those notes.......
Some of you know, my elderly (and not in the best of health) parents live with us now.
There was our first time calling 911 for my Dad.
Sirens blaring we got a huge fire truck, a red rescue truck and an ambulance on the curb of our house within 3 minutes.
Four huge firemen in full gear entered the house first.
First question asked of me by the guy in full gear that got off the long, red fire truck was what had occurred all day to bring us to this situation.

I literally stumbled all over my words trying to remember best I could all that had transpired that day.

Three rescue guys came in and one of them asked about all medications Dad was taking.
Again, I was spitting on myself trying to get out the information, correctly and best as I could remember.

Then three ambulance guys came in (I live in a very small house and boy, was it packed by the time they all entered) and the first one at Dad's side asked the above 2 same questions.

I will never forget how I felt.....totally inept, completely helpless, not being able to whip out the meds/history information in a clear and concise form.
I remember thinking to myself that if anything happened to my Dad, it would be my fault cuz I was sure I had forgotten something.

That was almost six years ago and thankfully all turned out OK but ever since then I keep a pad and pen in the drawers of both my parents' nightstands.

With all the meds they take on a regular basis, add to that extra meds they need when something goes wrong, that's a lot for me to remember so now I document, document, document.

I keep my notes (they would look like chicken scratches in the sand to anyone else who tried to read them) 24 hours and then rip them up in little pieces and throw in the trash.
Because of my penmanship, there is no way those notes would be useful to anyone else but me.

There have been 6 other occasions since, where we've had to call 911 and those notes, for me, were priceless.

All this to say that I personally don't feel the destruction of forensic's notes is any big deal especially since the information was FIRST copied over to a formal form.
Maybe I missed something.

Very good & valuable post, Amity. Thanks.

Your remarks about your fumble-mouth (hope that's not too harsh!) when you were worried & scared and su-rrounded by the buzz-buzz-buzz of all those rescue folks was powerful and even got my BP up while I was reading your post. Talk about freak-freak! I never had to go through it, thank you, God. My mother had her meds list in a special place, bless her, but I never had to use it.

But having those up-to-date documents is a simple piece of advice, but how many of us who have older parents or a special-needs family member would pay money for such a list when their house is swarming with EMT's etc., etc., when the familiy member is in crisis?? Valuable information, Amity.

And I also agree with your remarks about your note-taking. I had good hand-writing once, but four years of college classroom note-taking took care of that. Plus everyone has his/her own codes or abbreviations that defy translation. Even I had trouble with mine just days after I had written them!

Thanks again, Sleuther!

 

[oceanblueeyes]

BOMBSHELL

Urine reflects past drug use!

I always wanted to say that.

I must have missed that Soul.

All I heard is he could have taken the ephedrine right then or up to 72 hours before. The ephedrine pills were ordered by Murray from Applied Pharmacy.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Very good & valuable post, Amity. Thanks.

Your remarks about your fumble-mouth (hope that's not too harsh!) when you were worried & scared and su-rrounded by the buzz-buzz-buzz of all those rescue folks was powerful and even got my BP up while I was reading your post. Talk about freak-freak! I never had to go through it, thank you, God. My mother had her meds list in a special place, bless her, but I never had to use it.

But having those up-to-date documents is a simple piece of advice, but how many of us who have older parents or a special-needs family member would pay money for such a list when their house is swarming with EMT's etc., etc., when the familiy member is in crisis?? Valuable information, Amity.

And I also agree with your remarks about your note-taking. I had good hand-writing once, but four years of college classroom note-taking took care of that. Plus everyone has his/her own codes or abbreviations that defy translation. Even I had trouble with mine just days after I had written them!

Thanks again, Sleuther!

I have watched so many cases where the DT always makes a big deal out of that. It is just a diversionary tactic. Most all LE agencies I see in criminal trials write their hand notes and then bring them over into a concise neat form and throw away their notes.

Just like a secretary who may have taken shorthand at one time then once the letter is written she throws away her script. No biggy whatsoever.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

The last page of the online autopsy report states that hair samples were taken at the funeral home by the family's request. LaToya and a male were present, but no results are in the report.

They may have done that because the family had a second autopsy done.

Or they may have just wanted to keep some of his hair.

IMO

 

[legalmania]

They may have done that because the family had a second autopsy done.

Or they may have just wanted to keep some of his hair.

IMO

LaToya alleges MJ was murdered. I believe she was tweeting on day 2 that information was being withheld. We're just getting into the forensics so it will be interesting to see what comes out. I'm trying to figure out why Conrad would feel it necessary to tape MJ after drugging him?

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I would like to see hair samples of M.J.to see how long he has taken those drugs.

I am not sure if Propofol would even show up in the hair because it dissipates so quickly. The only reason it stayed in his system this time is because Murray filled him with so much of it he died instantly with no time for it to leave the system quickly.

I was thinking we may have heard he was on other drugs besides the ones that Murray said he gave him but seems not. It seems that is all he was taking and we don't even know if MJ wanted the other drugs anyway since Murray is the one that said he decided on this drug cocktail that morning. Imo, I think all he wanted was the propofol like he had been given so that he would feel he had slept.

There sure were a lot of pills around him that he could have taken. It isn't really logical that a drug addict would just leave pills in bottles that were there for his taking anytime he wanted them and some of them had been there for awhile.

I know.....once an addict always an addict but I saw nothing today showing me he was an active drug addict at the time of his death. MJ had no forewarning that he was going to die that day so what he had in his system is all he had...Murray's drug concoction.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

LaToya alleges MJ was murdered. I believe she was tweeting on day 2 that information was being withheld. We're just getting into the forensics so it will be interesting to see what comes out. I'm trying to figure out why Conrad would feel it necessary to tape MJ after drugging him?

Hi, legal!

I cant think of a reason why a doctor would pierce the confidentiality of his patient. It was certainly against the law in CA to do so and I will never ever believe MJ gave him permission to tape him in a very vulnerable state. So something really smells about that and it isn't a tuna boat passing by either.:floorlaugh:

Well I am not one who has ever been a conspiracy theorist but I have to admit from day one I have not been able to figure out why a doctor for 20 years could be so downright clueless and stupid. It wasnt just one thing he did.....it was everything he did that just makes no sense. I think this is why the medical community was stunned by his behavior.

IMO

 

[Isabelle]

If Dr. Murray only gave 25 mg Propofol to MJ, he should be able to produce the propofol bottle with the remaining medication and that would be his proof, but he can't because he didn't do that. He gave the entire bottle via gravity flow and combined with the load of benzos, the total drug effect killed Michael Jackson.

 

[Isabelle]

I hope the PT reads here. Actually it wouldn't bother me if the DT read here also.

 

[panthera]

I must have missed that Soul.

All I heard is he could have taken the ephedrine right then or up to 72 hours before. The ephedrine pills were ordered by Murray from Applied Pharmacy.

Please help me out here since I am unable to watch most of the testimony. Are they saying MJ had ingested ephedrine? If so, that would over stimulate his heart, then the combination of drugs to "bring him down" definitely could have killed him.

MOO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Please help me out here since I am unable to watch most of the testimony. Are they saying MJ had ingested ephedrine? If so, that would over stimulate his heart, then the combination of drugs to "bring him down" definitely could have killed him.

MOO

Hi there my friend!

Ephedrine was found in his urine but only a trace amount. So little of it found they could not quantify it. None of it found anywhere else in his system though.

The tox expert said that he could have taken it up 72 hours before he died. They found no undissolved pills in his stomach. Only dark fluid.

Murray had ordered a ephedrine concoction. It wasnt full ephedrine. It had other ingredients too. I cant remember what they are now. Aspirin I think was one ingredient.

But it does show how carelessly Murray was with his patient's life. The energy boost would also make it harder for MJ to sleep at night.

This guy was just doing this willy nilly using MJ as a guinea pig while experimenting.

Appalling.

 

[borndem]

I won't understand it but I hope the toxicology report gets put online,

The Tox Report is in the full Autopsy Report -- signed by our man Mr. Anderson himself. It's hard to read -- bad print -- but it's almost at the end of the report which is lengthy.


http://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Celebs/jackson, michael_report.pdf