Coronavirus COVID-19 - Global Health Pandemic #87

[Lilibet]

New from the CDC:

As the United States struggles with surging coronavirus cases and hospitalizations, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention on Thursday urged Americans not to travel during the Thanksgiving holiday and to consider canceling plans to spend time with relatives outside their households.

The new guidance states clearly that “the safest way to celebrate Thanksgiving is to celebrate at home with the people you live with,” and that gathering with friends and even family members who do not live with you increases the chances of becoming infected with Covid-19 or the flu or transmitting the virus.
BBM

Covid-19 Live Updates: C.D.C. Urges Americans to Avoid Thanksgiving Travel

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/11/19/cdc-thanksgiving-travel-covid/

CDC recommends against travel for Thanksgiving - CNN

 

[weepingangel]

Heading into holidays, US COVID-19 testing strained again
More at link
NEW YORK (AP) — With coronavirus cases surging and families hoping to gather safely for Thanksgiving, long lines to get tested have reappeared across the U.S. — a reminder that the nation’s strained testing system remains unable to keep pace with the virus.

The delays are happening as the country braces for winter weather, flu season and holiday travel, all of which are expected to amplify a U.S. outbreak that has already swelled past 11.5 million cases and 250,000 deaths.

Laboratories warned that continuing shortages of key supplies are likely to create more bottlenecks and delays, especially as cases rise across the nation and people rush to get tested before reuniting with relatives.

“As those cases increase, demand increases and turnaround times may increase,” said Scott Becker, CEO of the Association of Public Health Laboratories. “So it’s like a dog chasing its tail.”




2-Week Pause in RI to Begin Nov. 30 Amid Rising COVID Cases
More at link
Gov. Gina Raimondo announced a number of new restrictions Thursday including an upcoming 2-week pause for the state as coronavirus cases continue to soar in Rhode Island.

During her weekly news conference, Raimondo said despite targeted restrictions that she has already put in place a month ago, the situation is not getting better.

"Unfortunately, it's not working," Raimondo said. "We're in a really bad place."

As a result, the governor said current capacity restrictions at bars and restaurants will stay in place until Nov. 29. Social gatherings are limited to the number of people you live with as well, Raimondo said.

Beginning Nov. 30, the state will pause for two weeks with most colleges and universities moving to virtual learning. Bar areas, recreational venues, and indoor sports facilities, gyms, and organized sports will close in the pause period, Raimondo said.

The governor is asking offices to close and allow employees to work remotely, if possible.

Under the pause period, indoor dining will be limited to 33% capacity with one household per table. Retail stores can stay open under the restriction of one person per 100 square feet. Houses of worship will be limited to 25% capacity with a maximum of 125 people under the pause period, Raimondo said.

What will remain open under the pause period is in-person K-8 schools, child care, personal services and health care. High schools will be allowed to move to remote learning during the two-week pause, Raimondo said.

"This is only going to work if we do it. I don't know how to say it any other way," Raimondo said.




‘Tired to the bone’: Hospitals overwhelmed with virus cases
More at link
Overwhelmed hospitals are converting chapels, cafeterias, waiting rooms, hallways, even a parking garage into patient treatment areas. Staff members are desperately calling around to other medical centers in search of open beds. Fatigue and frustration are setting in among front-line workers.

Conditions inside the nation’s hospitals are deteriorating by the day as the coronavirus rages across the U.S. at an unrelenting pace and the confirmed death toll surpasses 250,000.

“We are depressed, disheartened and tired to the bone,” said Alison Johnson, director of critical care at Johnson City Medical Center in Tennessee, adding that she drives to and from work some days in tears.

 

[10ofRods]

If everybody in the supermarket is masked, doesn't that pretty much protect people in the supermarket-- maybe not 100%, but I would imagine the viral load would be much less-- I will have to assume that most of those people who may have contracted the virus at the supermarket were not wearing masks. To the best of my recall this study was in the U.K. do they not wear masks when they go to the supermarket in the UK?

It does. Masks reduce the virions being expelled tremendously. Even those paper surgical masks do a good job.

My daughters tell me that currently mask compliance is near 100% at grocery stores (3 months ago, it was still only 50/50 but the message finally got across and stores started truly enforcing the rules).

Grocery store workers, even masked, have been getting COVID at higher rates than other occupations here in my county, but in speaking with a couple of them online (students of mine), I found out that they often go in the back of the store and unmask for a while (I strongly suspect this is the problem). Truck drivers are also vectors here, and of course, the area in the back of a grocery store is often refrigerated or at least air conditioned.

My cousin has worked for years as the night manager of a big grocery warehouse serving many grocery store chains (in Colorado). He got Covid in June, was very sick, in hospital for almost a month, and is still not well but is back at work. His only pre-existing condition was age (69, turned 70 after contracting COVID). Fit, active 70 year old. He was in and out of the refrigerated trucks and in the refrigerated warehouse for hours every day. Several of his coworkers got COVID as well.

 

[Lilibet]

I’ve noticed many people in my circle don’t do grocery delivery, especially some who are elderly, because they may not be tech savvy and may feel intimidated, impatient, and/or may find it mildly inconvenient to have to schedule a time or not get exactly all the items they want all the time.

I agree that many don’t use grocery delivery for a variety of reasons. Another reason is the added expense of Instacart. To us, it’s worth it, but to others it may be too much. We have friends who place their order online at the same store we use and pick it up curbside. We’re too lazy to drive 30 minutes round trip to do that! But I’m sure it saves them money.

With Instacart, you have to stay by your computer to respond to your shopper’s questions or substitutions. So that may be confusing for some. I try to enter the alternatives I’ll accept in my order so that cuts down on questions, but there is still some texting back and forth. I have a friend who is 80 who could never make quick decisions like this and she is extremely picky about her produce selections, so she and her immune-compromised husband shop several times a week at our local natural food co-op.

In our rural area of southern Oregon, I’ve never had a problem scheduling a shopper immediately, and we usually receive our groceries within 2 hours. But I’m sure it’s different in urban areas. For the most part, we have had excellent shoppers who have made very few mistakes.

We have used Instacart since March, thanks to WS members posting about it, and I’m not sure we will ever go back to shopping for ourselves, even when it’s safe. The shopping burden falls on my husband because of my limitations and it had gotten to be almost too much before Covid.

 

[margarita25]

The Coronavirus Is Airborne Indoors. Why Are We Still Scrubbing Surfaces?

“All over the world, workers are soaping, wiping and fumigating surfaces with an urgent sense of purpose: to fight the coronavirus. But scientists increasingly say that there is little to no evidence that contaminated surfaces can spread the virus. In crowded indoor spaces like airports, they say, the virus that is exhaled by infected people and that lingers in the air is a much greater threat.

Hand washing with soap and water for 20 seconds — or sanitizer in the absence of soap — is still encouraged to stop the virus’s spread. But scrubbing surfaces does little to mitigate the virus threat indoors, experts say, and health officials are being urged to focus instead on improving ventilation and filtration of indoor air.

“In my opinion, a lot of time, energy and money is being wasted on surface disinfection and, more importantly, diverting attention and resources away from preventing airborne transmission,” said Dr. Kevin P. Fennelly, a respiratory infection specialist with the United States National Institutes of Health.“

[...]

“Viruses are emitted through activities that spray respiratory droplets — talking, breathing, yelling, coughing, singing and sneezing. And disinfecting sprays are often made from toxic chemicals that can significantly affect indoor air quality and human health, Dr. Miller said.“

[...]

“In July, an essay in The Lancet medical journal argued that some scientists had exaggerated the risk of coronavirus infection from surfaces without considering evidence from studies of its closely related cousins, including SARS-CoV, the driver of the 2002-03 SARS epidemic.

“This is extremely strong evidence that at least for the original SARS virus, fomite transmission was very minor at most,” the essay’s author, the microbiologist Emanuel Goldman of Rutgers University, said in an email. “There is no reason to expect that the close relative SARS-CoV-2 would behave significantly different in this kind of experiment,” he added, referring to the new coronavirus.”

[...]

“Some experts say they are especially concerned that coronavirus droplets could spread through air vents in offices, which are crowded because the city has not yet developed a robust culture of remote work.

“People are removing masks for lunch or when they get back to their cubicle because they assume their cubicle is their private space,” said Yeung King-lun, a professor of chemical and biological engineering at the Hong Kong University of Science and Technology.

“But remember: The air you’re breathing in is basically communal.”“

Many restaurants in Hong Kong installed dividers between tables.
Credit...Lam Yik Fei for The New York Times

In Hong Kong, officials added a fleet of robots to clean surfaces in malls and subway cars.Credit...Lam Yik Fei for The New York Times

—-

ETA: My opinion on the matter, I’m still disinfecting the heck out of everything. Until they can say there is absolutely zero chance of surface transmission, I am not taking any chances, and again, for me a lot of it is about peace of mind. Nonetheless, I am glad to read the report and taking note of it’s scientific value.

 

[sds71]

Housing and Urban Development Secretary Ben Carson, a world-renowned pioneer in the field of neurosurgery, said he took a potentially toxic, FDA-rejected therapeutic extract at the recommendation of the CEO of MyPillow to cure himself of the coronavirus. According to The Washington Post, Carson said he took oleandrin—an extract of the oleander plant—after hearing about it from Mike Lindell...

Ben Carson Claims a Potentially Toxic Plant Extract Touted by the MyPillow Guy Cured His COVID-19

 

[MimosaMornings]

Hawaii anyone?

California officials defend trip to Hawaii conference as 'urgent' — New York Post

“California lawmakers are defending traveling to a luxury resort in Hawaii for a conference this week, as the country continues to struggle with a new wave of COVID-19 infections.

More than half a dozen politicians from the Golden State are attending the four-day conference, which began Monday, even after Gov. Gavin Newsom on Friday warned against out-of-state travel and urged quarantining if anyone did so, the Los Angeles Times reported.”

 

[weepingangel]

this is not shocking if true. And just so darn sad.

Housing and Urban Development Secretary Ben Carson, a world-renowned pioneer in the field of neurosurgery, said he took a potentially toxic, FDA-rejected therapeutic extract at the recommendation of the CEO of MyPillow to cure himself of the coronavirus. According to The Washington Post, Carson said he took oleandrin—an extract of the oleander plant—after hearing about it from Mike Lindell...

Ben Carson Claims a Potentially Toxic Plant Extract Touted by the MyPillow Guy Cured His COVID-19

 

[margarita25]

Housing and Urban Development Secretary Ben Carson, a world-renowned pioneer in the field of neurosurgery, said he took a potentially toxic, FDA-rejected therapeutic extract at the recommendation of the CEO of MyPillow to cure himself of the coronavirus. According to The Washington Post, Carson said he took oleandrin—an extract of the oleander plant—after hearing about it from Mike Lindell...

Ben Carson Claims a Potentially Toxic Plant Extract Touted by the MyPillow Guy Cured His COVID-19

this is not shocking if true. And just so darn sad.

This is also very darn sad:

NPR / NYC Poison Control Sees Uptick In Calls After Trump's Disinfectant Comments

Calls To Poison Centers Spike After The President's Comments About Using Disinfectants To Treat Coronavirus - Forbes
Apr 25, 2020 — Words have consequences. It's as simple as that, and words coming from the President of the United States matter.

Health officials: Man drank toxic cleaning product after Trump’s comments on disinfectants
April 28, 2020

“Since Trump mentioned Thursday that researchers were looking at the effects of disinfectants on the virus and wondered aloud if they could be injected into people, the Kansas Poison Control Center has reported a 40 percent increase in cases involving cleaning solutions, the Wichita Eagle reported.

“A fellow over the weekend drank a product because of the advice he’d received,” said Lee Norman, a Kansas health officer.“

TIME / Accidental Poisonings Increased After President Trump's Disinfectant Comments
May 12

“What’s key is what happened in the weeks that followed Trump’s controversial and widely debunked comments—and there does appear to have been a rise in accidental poisonings thereafter.“


USNEWS / CDC: Some People Did Take Bleach to Protect From Coronavirus
June 2020

“"I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute, one minute," Trump said. "And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning? Because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it would be interesting to check that."

Trump later said his comments were sarcastic. The task force stopped their regular briefings with reporters shortly thereafter.“

 

[HongKongPhooey]

If everybody in the supermarket is masked, doesn't that pretty much protect people in the supermarket-- maybe not 100%, but I would imagine the viral load would be much less-- I will have to assume that most of those people who may have contracted the virus at the supermarket were not wearing masks. To the best of my recall this study was in the U.K. do they not wear masks when they go to the supermarket in the UK?

Yes, it's been mandatory to wear masks in all shops for months now. From September 23rd (ish) it also became mandatory for all workers in retail to wear masks, initially it was just customers.

 

[margarita25]

If everybody in the supermarket is masked, doesn't that pretty much protect people in the supermarket-- maybe not 100%, but I would imagine the viral load would be much less-- I will have to assume that most of those people who may have contracted the virus at the supermarket were not wearing masks. To the best of my recall this study was in the U.K. do they not wear masks when they go to the supermarket in the UK?

I have some theories I’ve been tossing around wrt viral load in grocery stores. I’ll see if I can find the posts. In a nutshell, yes, people are wearing masks and that reduces viral load; however, and IANAD, it’s possible IMO that there could be possibly be concentrated viral loads in the air simply because you have more people infected these days - with there being more infected people in communities, some likely asymptomatic and presymptomatic, in an indoor space...

Again, how many of these people are wearing a crappy gaiter, or have their masks exposing their noses, or have kids who naturally may not be keeping their masks on, etc. I also anticipate potentially high surface contamination since droplets “drop” and I would imagine a lot of people are touching things, though, as we know the risk of surface transmission may not be that high.

It’s all “up in the air“, imo, (literally lol), but my opinion is grocery stores are just not the place to be right now. And neither are pharmacies, which is another place I see a lot of people frequenting. Of course some may have to go get their flu shots there, but I’m talking about regular visits, going in to get things when some of the things you could get online.

eta
Which reminds me, where are we with “nose vs. mouth” droplets..

 

[10ofRods]

I agree that many don’t use grocery delivery for a variety of reasons. Another reason is the added expense of Instacart. To us, it’s worth it, but to others it may be too much. We have friends who place their order online at the same store we use and pick it up curbside. We’re too lazy to drive 30 minutes round trip to do that! But I’m sure it saves them money.

With Instacart, you have to stay by your computer to respond to your shopper’s questions or substitutions. So that may be confusing for some. I try to enter the alternatives I’ll accept in my order so that cuts down on questions, but there is still some texting back and forth. I have a friend who is 80 who could never make quick decisions like this and she is extremely picky about her produce selections, so she and her immune-compromised husband shop several times a week at our local natural food co-op.

In our rural area of southern Oregon, I’ve never had a problem scheduling a shopper immediately, and we usually receive our groceries within 2 hours. But I’m sure it’s different in urban areas. For the most part, we have had excellent shoppers who have made very few mistakes.

We have used Instacart since March, thanks to WS members posting about it, and I’m not sure we will ever go back to shopping for ourselves, even when it’s safe. The shopping burden falls on my husband because of my limitations and it had gotten to be almost too much before Covid.

Thank you for going into details about Instacart. I was using it occasionally before CoVid because I just had no time to go through a store (everything is so crowded here, and some stores are not in areas I consider safe).

I now understand that I have to be at my computer while they shop. I take the time to go through and choose substitutes or say "no substitute" if I really want a particular item. It's gotten to feel a bit like going to Vegas - sometimes I get lucky!

All the shoppers wear masks (in the store and at our door).

It is more expensive, but we decided that since we're not commuting, we'd apply our gas money toward groceries. I comparison shop at Amazon as well. We have changed our entire way of eating (we do not do takeout any more). DH is doing an elimination diet for food allergies, so we eat the same things over and over.

So...we stock up on some things that really work for us, and I can go three weeks between deliveries. I joined the Instacart program so I get ⅔ off the service fee (something like that) and there's no "delivery fee." I do tip as well as we can afford to.

I walked by our neighborhood grocery store just last week - mask compliance looked to be about 50% with no attempt to get people to mask up (I'd have to drive to a "better" part of town to get into a store with more compliance).

 

[SouthAussie]

<RSBM>
Lawsuit against Tyson alleges Waterloo managers bet on how many workers would get COVID-19, one called it "glorified flu"

This is absolutely disgusting! And from a meat (pork) processing plant.


- plant manager, Tom Hart, organized a cash buy-in, winner-take-all, betting pool for supervisors and managers to wager how many plant employees would test positive for COVID-19
- John Casey, an upper-level manager at the plant, is alleged in the lawsuit to have explicitly directed supervisors to ignore symptoms of COVID-19.
- on one occasion, Casey intercepted a sick supervisor who was on his way to be tested and ordered him to get back to work, saying "we all have symptoms - you have a job to do."
- Tyson offered $500 “thank you bonuses” to employees who turned up for every shift for three months, incentivizing sick employees to continue to show up for work.

 

[margarita25]

I agree that many don’t use grocery delivery for a variety of reasons. Another reason is the added expense of Instacart. To us, it’s worth it, but to others it may be too much. We have friends who place their order online at the same store we use and pick it up curbside. We’re too lazy to drive 30 minutes round trip to do that! But I’m sure it saves them money.

With Instacart, you have to stay by your computer to respond to your shopper’s questions or substitutions. So that may be confusing for some. I try to enter the alternatives I’ll accept in my order so that cuts down on questions, but there is still some texting back and forth. I have a friend who is 80 who could never make quick decisions like this and she is extremely picky about her produce selections, so she and her immune-compromised husband shop several times a week at our local natural food co-op.

In our rural area of southern Oregon, I’ve never had a problem scheduling a shopper immediately, and we usually receive our groceries within 2 hours. But I’m sure it’s different in urban areas. For the most part, we have had excellent shoppers who have made very few mistakes.

We have used Instacart since March, thanks to WS members posting about it, and I’m not sure we will ever go back to shopping for ourselves, even when it’s safe. The shopping burden falls on my husband because of my limitations and it had gotten to be almost too much before Covid.

Thank you for going into details about Instacart. I was using it occasionally before CoVid because I just had no time to go through a store (everything is so crowded here, and some stores are not in areas I consider safe).

I now understand that I have to be at my computer while they shop. I take the time to go through and choose substitutes or say "no substitute" if I really want a particular item. It's gotten to feel a bit like going to Vegas - sometimes I get lucky!

All the shoppers wear masks (in the store and at our door).

It is more expensive, but we decided that since we're not commuting, we'd apply our gas money toward groceries. I comparison shop at Amazon as well. We have changed our entire way of eating (we do not do takeout any more). DH is doing an elimination diet for food allergies, so we eat the same things over and over.

So...we stock up on some things that really work for us, and I can go three weeks between deliveries. I joined the Instacart program so I get ⅔ off the service fee (something like that) and there's no "delivery fee." I do tip as well as we can afford to.

I walked by our neighborhood grocery store just last week - mask compliance looked to be about 50% with no attempt to get people to mask up (I'd have to drive to a "better" part of town to get into a store with more compliance).

I’d like to pick up this conversation in the grocery shopping thread.

Yes Instacart does cost more money. I have the annual membership which provides reduced delivery fees.

I have a lot of feedback, you don’t necessarily have to be on the computer/phone. There is a comments section under each item, you can select your substitute options...

In a nutshell, I’m only using Instacart for items I can’t get through Whole Foods/Amazon Prime, for example certain dry or paper products. There is no beating the efficiency of Prime. I also saw here via a link that Whole Foods also got the award for cleanliness/safety practices. And while Whole Foods has been referred to “Whole Paycheck” for many years, I have found insane deals lately and find many things to be surprisingly much cheaper than at some of the other grocery stores. I’m guessing they, WF, are able to be more competitive with their prices now bc of Amazon.

Link to continue conversation in Grocery thread:
Grocery shopping tips during Coronavirus quarantine #3

 

[SouthAussie]

I have some theories I’ve been tossing around wrt viral load in grocery stores. I’ll see if I can find in the posts. In a nutshell, yes, people are wearing masks and that reduces viral load; however, and IANAD, imo, it’s possible that there could be concentrated viral loads in the air simply because you have more people infected these days, therefore more infected people, some likely asymptomatic and presymptomatic, in an indoor space. Again, how many of these people are wearing a crappy gaiter, or have their masks exposing their noses, have kids who naturally may not be keeping their masks on, etc. I also anticipate potentially high surface exposure, ftr, as we know the risk of surface transmission may not be that high.

It’s all up in the air, imo, but my opinion grocery stores are just not the place to be right now.

eta
Which reminds me, where are we with “nose vs. mouth” droplets..

I would imagine that grocery store aisles keep the virus droplets contained - inhibits them from wafting away. The high shelves are basically like walls on both sides.

 

[ilovewings]

I’d be worried about how full the hospitals are in Florida!
A house with your own yard and no shared space would be nice so you wouldn’t have to worry about an elevator/hallways/common areas.

Our condo is in a complex where we are next door to each other, not a high rise-
no hallways or elevator-- you are right about the hospitals in Florida though. Also
Governor DeSantis has no restrictions in the state--'which is outrageous--and i will
bet there is less compliance with masks in many parts of Florida

 

[nhmemorymaker]

I would post this on the Vallow/Daybell thread, but might be OT there. Downtown Rexburg protest outside city council meeting protesting mask mandate. See comments that would be expected. Same ol' same ol'.

And it may be OT here, but one of the women in the front row LOOKS like Lori V.
I had a phone call from Rexburg ID last week... I NEVER answer phone numbers I don't know..but couldn't help myself!!
Just car insurance. I thought maybe it was Nate.

 

[margarita25]

The Coronavirus Is Airborne Indoors. Why Are We Still Scrubbing Surfaces?

This article questions why are we worried about surfaces when the virus is spread airborne indoors? It is articles like this that make me question the case where a pizza box is alleged to have caused an outbreak

Hi @ilovewings, it seems I duplicated posted the same article. Anyway, ftr, the jury is still out on surface transmission IMO. Even if the risk is low, it seems it has not been ruled out. I recall old reports, one out of Germany, “Pass the salt”...sure new information is being learned, but again until we see zero risk of surface transmission I am taking zero chances. I am of course noting and studying this most recent article, especially re: the SARS part.

This is why hand hygiene is such an integral part of all this. And considering all the fuss about masks, who knows how many people could care less about having clean hands...The way I look at it, why take any chances, especially for such a minor thing such as letting your packages or dry items sit, transferring your pizza into the oven or pan, disposing of the box immediately so it has no opportunity to cross contaminate unnecessarily. I personally have moved on to frozen pizzas only, sadly, but the one time my nice neighbors sent me a pizza as a gift that’s what I did. My frozen pizzas go stacked in the wrapping only, as the boxes are immediately disposed of.

Here’s another thing, a lot of people say they have NO IDEA how they got the virus. I seem to be hearing that more and more these days. Again, we know immaculate conception doesn’t exist here, so...

We have known from the very beginning that this virus is highly contagious, and we also know from several reports that the level of contagiousness has increased within the new mutations...

My point is, EVEN IF surface transmission were to occur, it would be hard to determine the specific source of this specifically unless one is very consciously aware of everything single thing they touch and have touched within the previous days. So, if it is occurring, it may be hard to “pinpoint“, or “prove“, therefore possibly making studies and results on the subject of surface transmission difficult.

Re: the pizza box thing, it’s all too deep for me atm , which is why I haven’t commented yet.

Again, IANAD (which I much prefer to typing IANAL, which I obviously am though from this post haha)

—

Eta: Speaking of boxes/packages, I think this is something people need to be aware of: there seems to be a lot of package stealing going on. Can provide references shortly. My point is know with all this “letting a package sit“ business, which again is JMO because I am on the most extreme side of the spectrum one can be when it comes to cleaning surfaces, that there seems to be a not so uncommon occurrence of doorway package stealing, and I’ll provide some examples.

So, due to the package security issue, what I do is, with disposable gloves on, I open the box at the doorway with a screwdriver I have by the door, remove the contents (with a clean hand glove lol) and put them inside in the hallway right by the door. If it’s something that has been shipped by say, Prime, and arrives the next day, imo inside contents could have been directly handled and while the viral load may be very low, it could still exist. The empty external packaging stays at the doorway outside so I don’t have to dirty my floor or counter or handle it any further at that moment. And I have a trash area by the door for gloves, etc. Then the next day or next few days I can bring the boxes over to recycling.

This seems like an opportune time to bump @Herat ‘s “honk the horn and use tongs” instructions for handling packages

 

[10ofRods]

I would imagine that grocery store aisles keep the virus droplets contained - inhibits them from wafting away. The high shelves are basically like walls on both sides.

Yes! Exactly.

 

[MimosaMornings]

Hi @ilovewings, it seems I duplicated posted the same article. Anyway, ftr, the jury is still out on surface transmission IMO. Even if the risk is low, it seems it has not been ruled out. I recall old reports, one out of Germany, “Pass the salt”...sure new information is being learned, but again until we see zero risk of surface transmission I am taking zero chances. I am of course noting and studying this most recent article, especially re: the SARS part.

This is why hand hygiene is such an integral part of all this. And considering all the fuss about masks, who knows how many people could care less about having clean hands...The way I look at it, why take any chances, especially for such a minor thing such as letting your packages or dry items sit, transferring your pizza into the oven or pan, disposing of the box immediately so it has no opportunity to cross contaminate unnecessarily. I personally have moved on to frozen pizzas only, sadly, but the one time my nice neighbors sent me a pizza as a gift that’s what I did. My frozen pizzas go stacked in the wrapping only, as the boxes are immediately disposed of.

Here’s another thing, a lot of people say they have NO IDEA how they got the virus. I seem to be hearing that more and more these days. Again, we know immaculate conception doesn’t exist here, so...

We have known from the very beginning that this virus is highly contagious, and we also know from several reports that the level of contagiousness has increased within the new mutations...

My point is, EVEN IF surface transmission were to occur, it would be hard to determine the specific source of this specifically unless one is very consciously aware of everything single thing they touch and have touched within the previous days. So, if it is occurring, it may be hard to “pinpoint“, or “prove“, therefore possibly making studies and results on the subject of surface transmission difficult.

Re: the pizza box thing, it’s all too deep for me atm , which is why I haven’t commented yet.

Again, IANAD (which I much prefer to typing IANAL! which I obviously am though from this post haha)

—

Eta: Speaking of boxes/packages, I think this is something people need to be aware of: there seems to be a lot of package stealing going on. Can provide references shortly. My point is know with all this “letting a package sit“ business, which again is JMO because I am on the most extreme side of the spectrum one can be when it comes to wiping stuff down, etc., that there seems to be a not so uncommon occurrence of doorway package stealing, and I’ll provide some examples.

So, due to the package security issue, what I do is, with disposable gloves on, I open the box at the doorway with a screwdriver I have by the door, remove the contents (with a clean hand glove lol) and put them inside in the hallway right by the door. If it’s something that has been shipped by say, Prime, and arrives the next day, imo inside contents could have been directly handled and while the viral load may be very low, it could still exist. The empty external packaging stays at the doorway outside so I don’t have to dirty my floor or counter or handle it any further at that moment. And I have a trash area by the door for gloves, etc. Then the next day or next few days I can bring the boxes over to recycling.

This seems like an opportune time to bump @Herat ‘s “honk the horn and use tongs” instructions for handling packages

I started out doing the spray it and leave it method. Can of Lysol at the front door.
(Southern Hospitality Covid style)