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So nobody is crying about wrongful arrest because apparently DM was rightfully arrested.

However people are crying over a wrongful conviction when DM is not even convicted yet because they know that's the coming outcome.

People are crying about DM being wrongfully convicted?? Wow, do you have a link for that?

If you are referring to my post, it was directed to Kamille in response to her statement about wrongful convictions.

<mod snip>
JMO
 
rsbm

You believe that the only incidences of wrongful conviction are those cases that are high profile with publicized judgements awarded to the accused? It is impossible to get accurate figures on wrongful convictions for various reasons - there may have no overturning of the conviction and therefore no recognition of it, the accused may not have appealed or may have failed in their appeal, they may have unsuccessfully tried to have the verdict vacated, they may have confessed to get a lesser sentence or to just get it over with depending on the charges.









http://www.ccja-acjp.ca/cong2013/presentations/14.pdf

Your link provides an opinion just as my post does. I also referred to only murder convictions. Not statistics on every criminal case as your link does.

But statistically speaking, a defendent with a top notch legal team and not one overworked public defender, likely has the least possible chance of a conviction, wrongful or not. So DM should be covered. I'd be more worried about MS's chances. Why isn't anyone? :waitasec:

MOO
 
A private cell? Allowed all of the privileges of the other inmates?



http://www.cambridgetimes.ca/news-story/4413905-barton-jail-on-the-other-side-of-the-fence/

And, due to over-crowding, you're still not guaranteed a cell to yourself.



http://www.therecord.com/news-story/5258210-police-charge-barton-jail-inmate-with-attempted-murder/

Do you have any indication that DM, who is not a convicted inmate at Barton, has no means of "entertainment" in his cell? He just is unable to mingle with the other inmates for his own safety and therefore stays locked in his cell. I don't see him complaining or his attorney filing a motion to change that situation. Which he is entitled to do. So I have to assume he's okay with it.

And it's also highly unlikely he'll be forced to share that cell 23 hours a day with another inmate and sleep on the floor due to overcrowding. Hasn't happened in 2 years that we're aware of. Another perk for him.

MOO

From the above link...

On the protective custody range on an upstairs floor the walls are dressed up &#8212; scenes of a leafy lake, a rainbow, boats on the water.

Only a few chunks of colour have chipped off since the murals were painted in 1997 (an inmate was given permission to do them after the correctional officers discovered he was an incredible artist).


Protective custody. Not solitary confinement. Big difference.
 
OT but worthy of sharing IMO. For anyone who has followed the Jodi Arias/Travis Alexander case. Jodi Arias will face the rest of her natural life behind bars, LWOP. May she live long. :happydance::great::lol::woohoo:

To think DM could be facing the same fate. :thinking:
 
Your link provides an opinion just as my post does. I also referred to only murder convictions. Not statistics on every criminal case as your link does.

But statistically speaking, a defendent with a top notch legal team and not one overworked public defender, likely has the least possible chance of a conviction, wrongful or not. So DM should be covered. I'd be more worried about MS's chances. Why isn't anyone? :waitasec:

MOO

Actually, my link provides a presentation prepared based on research. Just as it is impossible to get the statistics on wrongfully convicted for all crimes, the same applies to murder convictions. The only ones positively known are those who have managed to successfully prove their case.

JMO
 
Actually, my link provides a presentation prepared based on research. Just as it is impossible to get the statistics on wrongfully convicted for all crimes, the same applies to murder convictions. The only ones positively known are those who have managed to successfully prove their case.

JMO

Which, as your link suggests, is a scholarly opinion and no more worthy of my own. The reasons the presentation gives for the possibility of more wrongful convictions than are known are pure speculation.

We do not have a high murder rate in this country. And I do not agree with that "scholarly opinion" that any murder convictions in the past three decades are "wrongful convictions" regardless of paper research with no factual basis.

When was this paper written? What is the "Innocence Movement"? Why aren't they working towards helping these "wrongfully convicted" murderers? (and that's all we're talking about here) Why is the paper laden with US data?

That paper looks like thousands of research papers being written right now as we speak in dozens of universities across the country. Low on facts, high on "research" that does not apply to the subject it was used to dispute. The number of wrongful murder convictions, in Canada, in the last 3 decades.

MOO
 
Do you have any indication that DM, who is not a convicted inmate at Barton, has no means of "entertainment" in his cell? He just is unable to mingle with the other inmates for his own safety and therefore stays locked in his cell. I don't see him complaining or his attorney filing a motion to change that situation. Which he is entitled to do. So I have to assume he's okay with it.

And it's also highly unlikely he'll be forced to share that cell 23 hours a day with another inmate and sleep on the floor due to overcrowding. Hasn't happened in 2 years that we're aware of. Another perk for him.

MOO

From the above link...

On the protective custody range on an upstairs floor the walls are dressed up &#8212; scenes of a leafy lake, a rainbow, boats on the water.

Only a few chunks of colour have chipped off since the murals were painted in 1997 (an inmate was given permission to do them after the correctional officers discovered he was an incredible artist).


Protective custody. Not solitary confinement. Big difference.

In Canada it's called segregation, whether it's as punishment (which is usually short-term) or administrative. Administrative segregation can be either voluntary or involuntary. If the institution deems your safety is at risk from the prison population, they can place you in segregation involuntarily. It is the institution's decision. You can submit a grievance to be reviewed and the Segregation Review Board will review your segregation periodically as well. However, it is still the institution's decision whether you remain in segregation. You would not hear about any of the reviews, or if a grievance was filed, in MSM, just as you wouldn't hear if he were to sometimes have to share his cell. Segregation is segregation whether it's voluntary or involuntary, not a big difference no matter what you call it, whether the hallways have murals or not.

I realize that most of us assume that he is in segregation for his protection, but none of us know whether it was requested by him or just decided by the jail.

JMO

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-44.6/section-31.html

http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/politiques-et-lois/709-cd-eng.shtml#s2c

http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/acts-and-regulations/081-cd-eng.shtml#s2d
 
OT but worthy of sharing IMO. For anyone who has followed the Jodi Arias/Travis Alexander case. Jodi Arias will face the rest of her natural life behind bars, LWOP. May she live long. :happydance::great::lol::woohoo:

To think DM could be facing the same fate. :thinking:

7 years is a very long time to drag a victim's family through the hell that JA did. I still can't believe she was able to manipulate that trial for so long. As a Canadian, I can't be unhappy about her sentence. I know the family wanted the death penalty, but natural life in prison is the next best thing. Too bad we don't have such a sentence here. And I liked Travis' sister's suggestion today that there should be an option for life in solitary confinement with no privileges like jobs, classes, trips to the prison library, unlimited canteen options etc. Now that would be fitting for a lot of heinous murderers IMO.

MOO
 
In Canada it's called segregation, whether it's as punishment (which is usually short-term) or administrative. Administrative segregation can be either voluntary or involuntary. If the institution deems your safety is at risk from the prison population, they can place you in segregation involuntarily. It is the institution's decision. You can submit a grievance to be reviewed and the Segregation Review Board will review your segregation periodically as well. However, it is still the institution's decision whether you remain in segregation. You would not hear about any of the reviews, or if a grievance was filed, in MSM, just as you wouldn't hear if he were to sometimes have to share his cell. Segregation is segregation whether it's voluntary or involuntary, not a big difference no matter what you call it, whether the hallways have murals or not.

I realize that most of us assume that he is in segregation for his protection, but none of us know whether it was requested by him or just decided by the jail.

JMO

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-44.6/section-31.html

http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/politiques-et-lois/709-cd-eng.shtml#s2c

http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/acts-and-regulations/081-cd-eng.shtml#s2d

So we can agree that he is in a segregation unit which is called the protective custody unit at the Barton Street Jail (not a prison strictly for convicted inmates) in the article you posted which I will repost below. And he is an innocent until proven guilty resident there with all the rights and privileges afforded to someone who is in custody but not yet convicted. Except he cannot socialize with other inmates in the common area of his unit and likely there is no common area in his unit. IOW, he is being protected, not punished. He doesn't have to file a grievance with a Segregation Review Board as he still has a legal team to handle these issues for him and they can do so through preliminary motions. And there has been no indication that he wants to be in the general population other than a poster on this board suggesting he might be lonely and depressed because he is in solitary confinement.

His situation is very different than a convicted inmate in a jail or a prison being put in solitary for disciplinary or safety reasons IMO.

http://www.cambridgetimes.ca/news-story/4413905-barton-jail-on-the-other-side-of-the-fence/
 
Which, as your link suggests, is a scholarly opinion and no more worthy of my own. The reasons the presentation gives for the possibility of more wrongful convictions than are known are pure speculation.

We do not have a high murder rate in this country. And I do not agree with that "scholarly opinion" that any murder convictions in the past three decades are "wrongful convictions" regardless of paper research with no factual basis.

When was this paper written? What is the "Innocence Movement"? Why aren't they working towards helping these "wrongfully convicted" murderers? (and that's all we're talking about here) Why is the paper laden with US data?

That paper looks like thousands of research papers being written right now as we speak in dozens of universities across the country. Low on facts, high on "research" that does not apply to the subject it was used to dispute. The number of wrongful murder convictions, in Canada, in the last 3 decades.

MOO

It's a term used for a group of innocence projects that evaluate and investigate cases where the prisoners claim innocence and litigate the ones that appear worthy of exoneration. It started with The Innocence Project and includes the Center on Wrongful Convictions. Although it's mostly U.S., it is expanding internationally.

Here is a copy of the Innocent Network's report of the 22 exonerations they helped to obtain in 2012.

http://www.innocencenetwork.org/Innocence_Network_2012.pdf

Hopefully Rodney Reed will be on that list soon.
 
It's a term used for a group of innocence projects that evaluate and investigate cases where the prisoners claim innocence and litigate the ones that appear worthy of exoneration. It started with The Innocence Project and includes the Center on Wrongful Convictions. Although it's mostly U.S., it is expanding internationally.

Here is a copy of the Innocent Network's report of the 22 exonerations they helped to obtain in 2012.

http://www.innocencenetwork.org/Innocence_Network_2012.pdf

Hopefully Rodney Reed will be on that list soon.

So to the best of your knowledge, there have been no known Canadians wrongfully convicted of murder in the past approximately 3 decades which is what I stated originally, and there are none who are currently being helped with their cases by any of the "innocence" organizations because they believe that the person WAS wrongfully convicted?
 
So we can agree that he is in a segregation unit which is called the protective custody unit at the Barton Street Jail (not a prison strictly for convicted inmates) in the article you posted which I will repost below. And he is an innocent until proven guilty resident there with all the rights and privileges afforded to someone who is in custody but not yet convicted. Except he cannot socialize with other inmates in the common area of his unit and likely there is no common area in his unit. IOW, he is being protected, not punished. He doesn't have to file a grievance with a Segregation Review Board as he still has a legal team to handle these issues for him and they can do so through preliminary motions. And there has been no indication that he wants to be in the general population other than a poster on this board suggesting he might be lonely and depressed because he is in solitary confinement.

His situation is very different than a convicted inmate in a jail or a prison being put in solitary for disciplinary or safety reasons IMO.

http://www.cambridgetimes.ca/news-story/4413905-barton-jail-on-the-other-side-of-the-fence/

The large percentage of people in that jail are there awaiting trial. How is his situation different than anyone else who put is segregation? He's still in a cell 23 hours a day. He isn't let out at 9 am for breakfast, doesn't get to socialize in a common area all day. What is it that you think is different from anyone else in segregation? I'm seriously interested to know what you think he has that others don't.

He does have to go through the Review Board to request to be let out of segregation and placed in general population. What does his place in jail have to do with lawyers filing motions in court? Preliminary motions are in regards to his trial, not his incarceration while he waits for the trial. I provided the links for the Correctional Service of Canada. If you have a link that says a lawyer can motion the court to have him released from segregation, can you please provide it? Where would you expect to be advised of whether he has requested a review to be removed from segregation?
 
So to the best of your knowledge, there have been no known Canadians wrongfully convicted of murder in the past approximately 3 decades which is what I stated originally, and there are none who are currently being helped with their cases by any of the "innocence" organizations because they believe that the person WAS wrongfully convicted?

In the past 30 years?

Robert Baltovich
James Driskell
William Mullins-Johnson
Kyle Unger
Dinesh Kumar
Clayton Johnson
Gregory Parsons
Tammy Marquardt
Sherry Sherrett-Robinson
Guy Paul Morin if you're going by conviction date

HTH
 
Media outlets are a lot different than they used to be with regards to real investigative reporting and fact checking. Online news and the haste to be the first to get stories out there have made that happen unfortunately. Most just regurgitate information coming off the news wires. Sometimes word for word. They have very few actual reporters on staff and the ones they do have a lot to cover. We're two years out from the actual crime and DM is just not that newsworthy at the moment. It will certainly pick up once the trial begins and each news outlet has a reporter stationed in the courthouse but in the interim, only court related news seems to be making it into MSM. I'm sure if the letters hadn't surfaced until that time, they would have been a hot ticket item for all media outlets. Coming out in the interim is just not that interesting to most people other than those who follow true crime on the internet.

I admit I have not been around Tim's forum in a while. So LE have been in contact with the young lady from the yacht and everything has been verified? I was not aware of that and it's a relief to hear. Thank you for putting that to rest for me.

MOO

Wow, Kamille, it must have really been a long time since you were last here then, and I am glad to bring relief to what must have been a very stressful wait for the last couple of years for you. I am surprised that your curiosity didn't get the better of you in all that time, but nonetheless, I think that you'll be pleased to know that there were two different young ladies seen with him and both have been found safe and sound. No word on which one had the embarrassing period mishap, sorry.


"While the staff sergeant could not shed more light on the now closed investigation, he did say that the two girls who had spent time on the charter with Mr. Millard in 2011 had since been identified and that there was no concern for their safety or well being."

http://www.manitoulin.ca/2013/06/05...onal-media-police-in-assisting-millard-probe/

As for your complaints against the media, I have to say I agree, and by the way, so does the man who discovered the blood aboard the yacht, as quoted from the article above:

"“Immediately after The Expositor ran the information that I shared, that same day a story came out in the Hamilton Spectator that stated I saw ‘large amounts of blood around the boat rented by Dellen Millard, owner Chris Blodgett says’,” Mr. Blodgett explained. “That is when the fear set in because I never said anything remotely close to that statement, to anybody, ever. I was then hounded by the Toronto Star (among many others) who basically threatened me by saying they intended to run the same story unless I spoke with them and gave them a new story. I hoped that if I just stopped responding to their emails and phone calls that they would leave me alone. At the same time I told the CBC that while the information reported in The Expositor was accurate, I would decline any further comment.”

Mr. Blodgett said he was horrified when that exact headline began to run in every small and large newspaper across the province and country, including the Toronto Star, even after he told reporters the story had been exaggerated."

It's nice that we can agree on something, I think.

Unfortunately, I still disagree about the timing of the letters and the media not cut-and-pasting the story like they usually do. They will copy even the most boring stories at any time, in my opinion. I think it may have less to do with timing and more to do with journalistic ethics, intellectual property rights, or other legalities that make them undesirable to the mass media.
 
The large percentage of people in that jail are there awaiting trial. How is his situation different than anyone else who put is segregation? He's still in a cell 23 hours a day. He isn't let out at 9 am for breakfast, doesn't get to socialize in a common area all day. What is it that you think is different from anyone else in segregation? I'm seriously interested to know what you think he has that others don't.

He does have to go through the Review Board to request to be let out of segregation and placed in general population. What does his place in jail have to do with lawyers filing motions in court? Preliminary motions are in regards to his trial, not his incarceration while he waits for the trial. I provided the links for the Correctional Service of Canada. If you have a link that says a lawyer can motion the court to have him released from segregation, can you please provide it? Where would you expect to be advised of whether he has requested a review to be removed from segregation?
Alethia, IMHO, it behooves me to think that I need to feel any amount of concern about poor DM and his isolation from the other inmates at Barton or who's filed what motion with who to change his living arrangements. IMO, DM has more than competent, highly paid legal representation and I'm sure if they thought for one minute that poor DM was suffering at the hands of the justice system they'd be appealing it somewhere. On another note, I seriously doubt that if that the disclosure documents were weak or there wasn't sufficient evidence to hold DM, he wouldn't be calling Barton St. his home right now. Once again, I'm not prepared to question his lawyers and their actions. The truth is we have absolutely no idea how many freedoms DM is getting. I get the "save the puppy" feeling. Of course, most of us with a decent bone in our body don't like to see anyone suffer, however, we can never be blinded by our emotions. We have 3 murders on the books here and one common denominator. The 3 murders took place within a 10 month span.

Families of the victims are still grieving and closure is still a distance away- this is where the real emotions should be. MOO Whether or not DM is getting proper exercise or showers? Not my circus...not my monkey. IMHO. MS doesn't seem to have a hard time living in GP and he's got 2 first degree charges against him. CN is charged- but she got bail. None of DM's letters scream for help. He didn't cry about his living conditions in his news paper interviews. So, IMO, I can't quite figure out why we're concerned about his situation here. He could pick up the phone and get 20 reporters lined up at the jail tomorrow if it was a problem. I can only assume, with everything at DM's disposal, that his living conditions are not an issue. MOO
 
The large percentage of people in that jail are there awaiting trial. How is his situation different than anyone else who put is segregation? He's still in a cell 23 hours a day. He isn't let out at 9 am for breakfast, doesn't get to socialize in a common area all day. What is it that you think is different from anyone else in segregation? I'm seriously interested to know what you think he has that others don't.

He does have to go through the Review Board to request to be let out of segregation and placed in general population. What does his place in jail have to do with lawyers filing motions in court? Preliminary motions are in regards to his trial, not his incarceration while he waits for the trial. I provided the links for the Correctional Service of Canada. If you have a link that says a lawyer can motion the court to have him released from segregation, can you please provide it? Where would you expect to be advised of whether he has requested a review to be removed from segregation?

It very well may be his choice to be segregated. I realize he has not been convicted yet, but let's look at others who have. Is there also sympathy for those murderers/serial killers such as PB, RW, MR, their treatment and/or segregation? Just curious. I doubt much has changed for DM since May 10, 2013. MOO.

May 15, 2013
Millard is being held in the Barton Street East Jail in Hamilton, where he is under heavy guard but not in protective custody.
&#8220;I&#8217;m not saying [he&#8217;s in] isolation but similar to isolation,&#8221; Paradkar said.
He&#8217;s also not under a suicide watch, he said.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...formally_charged_with_firstdegree_murder.html
 
The large percentage of people in that jail are there awaiting trial. How is his situation different than anyone else who put is segregation? He's still in a cell 23 hours a day. He isn't let out at 9 am for breakfast, doesn't get to socialize in a common area all day. What is it that you think is different from anyone else in segregation? I'm seriously interested to know what you think he has that others don't.

He does have to go through the Review Board to request to be let out of segregation and placed in general population. What does his place in jail have to do with lawyers filing motions in court? Preliminary motions are in regards to his trial, not his incarceration while he waits for the trial. I provided the links for the Correctional Service of Canada. If you have a link that says a lawyer can motion the court to have him released from segregation, can you please provide it? Where would you expect to be advised of whether he has requested a review to be removed from segregation?

Neither of us know the ratio of convicted vs in custody awaiting trial inmates at the Barton Street Jail unless you've found a link.

The links you provided are for federal penitentiaries and not provincial detention centers.

The MCSCS made this statement recently....

Inmates being held in segregation have the same right to receive humane treatment &#8206;as all other inmates in the institution, but may lose privileges when placed in segregation for disciplinary reasons. All inmates placed in segregation have their placement reviewed after 24 hours and every five days thereafter.

http://news.ontario.ca/mcscs/en/201...rvices-made-the-following-statement-toda.html

So it appears that on a provincial level, reviews are automatic. And if DM were to dispute his situation,
attorneys most certainly do include defendent issues while incarcerated awaiting trial in their pre trial motions to the judge if there is an issue. i don't need a link. Try reading cases outside this forum. Maybe start with Luka Magnotta. His attorney had several issues to deal with.

In his current situation he has all the communication, visitation and privacy rights afforded to everyone else awaiting trial and not convicted, not the more limited rights of a convicted prisoner in a federal prison segregation unit or even in a provincial segregation unit if they are serving out their time at that level for disciplinary or safety reasons. The difference between him and others awaiting trial is that he is not able to leave his cell and socialize with other people in a general population setting for his own personal safety. None of us have any idea if he is lonely and depressed and therefore chose to write to strangers because he is in protective custody instead of general population. Which is what started this discussion in the first place. And unless anyone wants to write and ask him whether he would be happier in general and wishes he could socialize with the other inmates, therefore eliminating the need to write to strangers, and get back to us with his response, I'm officially done beating this discussion to death. :deadhorse:

MOO
 
In the past 30 years?

Robert Baltovich
James Driskell
William Mullins-Johnson
Kyle Unger
Dinesh Kumar
Clayton Johnson
Gregory Parsons
Tammy Marquardt
Sherry Sherrett-Robinson
Guy Paul Morin if you're going by conviction date

HTH

Well I said approx 3 decades. I was off by about half a decade or so. ;)
 
Neither of us know the ratio of convicted vs in custody awaiting trial inmates at the Barton Street Jail unless you've found a link.

The links you provided are for federal penitentiaries and not provincial detention centers.

The MCSCS made this statement recently....

Inmates being held in segregation have the same right to receive humane treatment &#8206;as all other inmates in the institution, but may lose privileges when placed in segregation for disciplinary reasons. All inmates placed in segregation have their placement reviewed after 24 hours and every five days thereafter.

http://news.ontario.ca/mcscs/en/201...rvices-made-the-following-statement-toda.html

So it appears that on a provincial level, reviews are automatic. And if DM were to dispute his situation,
attorneys most certainly do include defendent issues while incarcerated awaiting trial in their pre trial motions to the judge if there is an issue. i don't need a link. Try reading cases outside this forum. Maybe start with Luka Magnotta. His attorney had several issues to deal with.

In his current situation he has all the communication, visitation and privacy rights afforded to everyone else awaiting trial and not convicted, not the more limited rights of a convicted prisoner in a federal prison segregation unit or even in a provincial segregation unit if they are serving out their time at that level for disciplinary or safety reasons. The difference between him and others awaiting trial is that he is not able to leave his cell and socialize with other people in a general population setting for his own personal safety. None of us have any idea if he is lonely and depressed and therefore chose to write to strangers because he is in protective custody instead of general population. Which is what started this discussion in the first place. And unless anyone wants to write and ask him whether he would be happier in general and wishes he could socialize with the other inmates, therefore eliminating the need to write to strangers, and get back to us with his response, I'm officially done beating this discussion to death. :deadhorse:

MOO

Thanks, Kamille. So the difference between federal and provincial appears to be that the review is done every 5 days instead of every 30.

Stats Can actually does have the ratios up to 2011 at least, not split by each individual jail but would certainly be a good reflection on the averages.

In 2010/2011, those in remand on any given day accounted for 53% of adults in provincial or territorial custody while those in sentenced custody accounted for 45%.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2012001/article/11715-eng.htm#a5

I didn't follow the Magnotta trial, since he recorded himself and it was a given. If, as you say, his lawyer entered motions at trial in regards to his wanting to be moved out of solitary, please do share the link. I would appreciate the confirmation that this actually happens in a court trial.

TIA
 
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