Crime Scene Animation by Websleuths Member grayhuze

[ScarlettScarpetta]

What is your problem with Dr Horn??? I don't understand why you seem so set on making him seem incompetent. I believe absolutely the shot was last because at one point Travis was standing over the sink and he could not have done that after being shot in the head that way.

 

[Wysteria]

Here is a video I created after being frustrated that I couldn't see what jodi was referring to during interrogation. It's probably one of my more creative videos. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQn-t44JcTg
This one shows the proximity of the camera on some shower shots. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quvKCWffn6o
This video is long but is useful if you want to know about the blood spatter. I follow the testimony around the room using my 3d model of the Bathroom. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swrR4d7Cn3A

All of your videos are remarkable.
I especially like the first video you created in the above post.
I also believe that she (CMJA) was describing what, where, when and how through the "female intruder/ninja".
I liked the insert of your words as well.
You have a wonderful gift and I'm glad that this thread was created.
Thank you very much. :tyou:

 

[IdleMind]

<Mod Snip>
Grayhuze, did a good job with all these videos. I don't completely agree with his proffered scenario. The issue with Dr Horn: Per his testimony, his report doesn't include any sequences of events. He has no recall of every telling Flores anything. As lead detective on the case Flores had an interest and duty to obtain the MEs finding in the case and was present for the autopsy per his report and per Horns report. As per Horns testimony in the retrial. The penetrating stab would to the heart, did not cause blood in the mouth. The incised wound to the stomach, did not intersect the stomach or intestines to cause blood into the mouth. As per first trial, he doesn't know whether the lungs were nicked or not since they were not pristine enough to determine. Again as per re-trail and previous trial, the bullet went through the sinus cavities in the head. Also I don't think the blood in the right ear canal was ever addressed.
So scenarios with Horn.
1) Per Horn with the cut to the throat TA unconscious in seconds and dies in minutes. He would not be standing at the sink or engaged in defensive actions or fight hard after that. That would be the last fatal wound not including gun shot after that point. Basically what ever they were doing ended after that slit throat.
2) Essential Horn says aside from the neck slit, none of the other wounds would have cause blood in TA's mouth. The blood comes from the bullet passing through the sinuses and draining into the mouth. The question becomes how does the bullet passes through the sinus and through the frontal lobe. The bone can deflect the bullet, but what path would it take to get into the sinuses after entering the frontal lobe and ending up in the maxilla? You'd think Horn would have no less that two perforations to the duramater and the other membranes surrounding the brain. Also on recross in the original trial, Martinez got Horn to acknowledge haemorrhaging inside the cheek where the bullet was. Keep in mind that haemorrhaging supposed occurs while the heart is pumping.
3) In addition in previous hearings or conversations, Flores discusses with Horn, the injuries to support the F(6) aggravaters. If knife was first it would likely support both the heinous and deprave aspects of the F(6) aggravaters to make for a more compelling case in '09 for support of the DP.

Conclusion:
In seeking the DP something like this issue should not be in question. The state has had two position on the issue suggesting uncertainty which is reasonable doubt. In contrast to the DeVault trial, there was less uncertainty about what happen. She struck him on the head with a hammer while he was sleeping. The state if it seeks the DP has a duty to the people to get accurate and truthful facts about the case. If they are to ask a jury to commit premeditate murder and an ultimate irreversible sanction, the facts should be beyond a reasonable doubt as stated by law. IMO, a retrial needs to be granted in this case and the can properly convicted and sentence JA to DP if that's what the case proves. To do it on the current basis works against the interest of the people of the state of AZ and the rest of society.

 

[grayhuze]

What is your problem with Dr Horn??? I don't understand why you seem so set on making him seem incompetent. I believe absolutely the shot was last because at one point Travis was standing over the sink and he could not have done that after being shot in the head that way.

My problem with him is that I think he lied. Sorry.

 

[grayhuze]

Thank you so much. I do believe, Obviously, that Jodi committed first degree murder with special cruelty. I just think there was some creative memory issues regarding the changing testimony.

 

[grayhuze]

All of your videos are remarkable.
I especially like the first video you created in the above post.
I also believe that she (CMJA) was describing what, where, when and how through the "female intruder/ninja".
I liked the insert of your words as well.
You have a wonderful gift and I'm glad that this thread was created.
Thank you very much. :tyou:

Thank you!

 

[grayhuze]

Grayhuze, did a good job with all these videos. I don't completely agree with his proffered scenario. The issue with Dr Horn: Per his testimony, his report doesn't include any sequences of events. He has no recall of every telling Flores anything. As lead detective on the case Flores had an interest and duty to obtain the MEs finding in the case and was present for the autopsy per his report and per Horns report. As per Horns testimony in the retrial. The penetrating stab would to the heart, did not cause blood in the mouth. The incised wound to the stomach, did not intersect the stomach or intestines to cause blood into the mouth. As per first trial, he doesn't know whether the lungs were nicked or not since they were not pristine enough to determine. Again as per re-trail and previous trial, the bullet went through the sinus cavities in the head. Also I don't think the blood in the right ear canal was ever addressed.
So scenarios with Horn.
1) Per Horn with the cut to the throat TA unconscious in seconds and dies in minutes. He would not be standing at the sink or engaged in defensive actions or fight hard after that. That would be the last fatal wound not including gun shot after that point. Basically what ever they were doing ended after that slit throat.
2) Essential Horn says aside from the neck slit, none of the other wounds would have cause blood in TA's mouth. The blood comes from the bullet passing through the sinuses and draining into the mouth. The question becomes how does the bullet passes through the sinus and through the frontal lobe. The bone can deflect the bullet, but what path would it take to get into the sinuses after entering the frontal lobe and ending up in the maxilla? You'd think Horn would have no less that two perforations to the duramater and the other membranes surrounding the brain. Also on recross in the original trial, Martinez got Horn to acknowledge haemorrhaging inside the cheek where the bullet was. Keep in mind that haemorrhaging supposed occurs while the heart is pumping.
3) In addition in previous hearings or conversations, Flores discusses with Horn, the injuries to support the F(6) aggravaters. If knife was first it would likely support both the heinous and deprave aspects of the F(6) aggravaters to make for a more compelling case in '09 for support of the DP.

Conclusion:
In seeking the DP something like this issue should not be in question. The state has had two position on the issue suggesting uncertainty which is reasonable doubt. In contrast to the DeVault trial, there was less uncertainty about what happen. She struck him on the head with a hammer while he was sleeping. The state if it seeks the DP has a duty to the people to get accurate and truthful facts about the case. If they are to ask a jury to commit premeditate murder and an ultimate irreversible sanction, the facts should be beyond a reasonable doubt as stated by law. IMO, a retrial needs to be granted in this case and the can properly convicted and sentence JA to DP if that's what the case proves. To do it on the current basis works against the interest of the people of the state of AZ and the rest of society.

It's funny, I actually say a lot of the things you wrote on different forums, but you obviously can write a better synthesis of the information. I understand what you are saying and what I see and what I research but can't articulate it as well, hence the use of videos to explain what I am thinking. Anyhow, I appreciate what you wrote. I find it odd that nobody so far can defend that Horn doesn't remember ever speaking to Flores about the case. That should be a red flag to a critical mind.

 

[geevee]

I am sure you meant bullet right? Anyhow, I would have to see the actual photograph because your entire opinion is based on a photograph that is a still shot from a video and is very grainy. If what you are saying is true then why was horn so quick to point out that the brain in younger adult fills out that portion more than older adults. I think he knows it's close. He observed the brain and it was symmetrical. He was confident that a bullet had not traveled through the brain after observing the serial cross sections and noted that the observation was mildly ("somewhat") limited do to decomposition.
Now, if the bullet did hit the brain does that mean Travis was immediately incapacitated? NO. I found it not credible that Horn had never heard of another case where a bullet hit the brain and the person was not immediately incapacitated. I also find it not credible and none of you seem to want to address it, is the fact that Horn said "I don't remember ever speaking to Flores about this case" This is the highest profile case of his career. How is that possible? I think it's much more believable that Flores heard exactly what Horn told him on numerous occasions. The supplemental report says
"The initial report from Dr. Horn was that the gunshot wound to Travis' head would not have been fatal. The gunshot would have possibly disabled him temporarily." So, is Flores lying when he says Horn told him that? or did he just not hear Horn correctly? There are two element in this sentence. Not fatal and disabled temporarily. Did he hear incorrectly regarding both of those elements? Did he also hear Horn incorrectly on two other occasions? How convenient that Horn doesn't remember or recall any of those conversations. Again, in the highest profile case of his career. I find this not credible. I think if we apply the same standard we did to Sammuals, Laviolette and others, we might see things more honestly. Something isn't right in this scenario.

BBM 1 - I believe he said not "immediately" fatal.

BBM 2 - 'Disabled temporarily' - as in, after a while he'd get up and be back to his old self?

And to the point above by IdleMind - how would the bullet enter the sinal cavity without passing through the frontal lobe first and after crashing through the plate below the brain? I believe that JSS addressed the issue of the State changing from gunshot first to gunshot last from a motion filed by the defense (since another judge had ruled in favor of the cruelty issue with gunshot first), I don't think an appeals court is going to award her a new trial on this issue.

 

[Hope4More]

Grayhuze, did a good job with all these videos. I don't completely agree with his proffered scenario. The issue with Dr Horn: Per his testimony, his report doesn't include any sequences of events. He has no recall of every telling Flores anything. As lead detective on the case Flores had an interest and duty to obtain the MEs finding in the case and was present for the autopsy per his report and per Horns report. As per Horns testimony in the retrial. The penetrating stab would to the heart, did not cause blood in the mouth. The incised wound to the stomach, did not intersect the stomach or intestines to cause blood into the mouth. As per first trial, he doesn't know whether the lungs were nicked or not since they were not pristine enough to determine. Again as per re-trail and previous trial, the bullet went through the sinus cavities in the head. Also I don't think the blood in the right ear canal was ever addressed.
So scenarios with Horn.
1) Per Horn with the cut to the throat TA unconscious in seconds and dies in minutes. He would not be standing at the sink or engaged in defensive actions or fight hard after that. That would be the last fatal wound not including gun shot after that point. Basically what ever they were doing ended after that slit throat.
2) Essential Horn says aside from the neck slit, none of the other wounds would have cause blood in TA's mouth. The blood comes from the bullet passing through the sinuses and draining into the mouth. The question becomes how does the bullet passes through the sinus and through the frontal lobe. The bone can deflect the bullet, but what path would it take to get into the sinuses after entering the frontal lobe and ending up in the maxilla? You'd think Horn would have no less that two perforations to the duramater and the other membranes surrounding the brain. Also on recross in the original trial, Martinez got Horn to acknowledge haemorrhaging inside the cheek where the bullet was. Keep in mind that haemorrhaging supposed occurs while the heart is pumping.
3) In addition in previous hearings or conversations, Flores discusses with Horn, the injuries to support the F(6) aggravaters. If knife was first it would likely support both the heinous and deprave aspects of the F(6) aggravaters to make for a more compelling case in '09 for support of the DP.

Conclusion:
In seeking the DP something like this issue should not be in question. The state has had two position on the issue suggesting uncertainty which is reasonable doubt. In contrast to the DeVault trial, there was less uncertainty about what happen. She struck him on the head with a hammer while he was sleeping. The state if it seeks the DP has a duty to the people to get accurate and truthful facts about the case. If they are to ask a jury to commit premeditate murder and an ultimate irreversible sanction, the facts should be beyond a reasonable doubt as stated by law. IMO, a retrial needs to be granted in this case and the can properly convicted and sentence JA to DP if that's what the case proves. To do it on the current basis works against the interest of the people of the state of AZ and the rest of society.

A retrial? Egads. If ever there was a killer undeserving of yet another chance to parade her lies, it is JA.

She was found guilty fair and square, and found to have killed him in an especially cruel manner fair and square. The sequence of the 3 ways she murdered him is ultimately irrelevant; in any order, the murder was especially cruel.

But, Horn didn't lie. Flores didn't lie. Martinez didn't lie. Geffner was a pathetic unqualified hired gun then, and in the retrial on other matters.

And wowsers, yes it be nice if killers sat down when caught and explained the what and the how, precisely, with a timeline and diagrams, but in real life the State puts the pieces together well enough to make a case. Which happened here. One the jury found convincing. All done.

 

[Hope4More]

I keep going back to there was a loud noise ,which to me is the gunshot first.

JA: Umm&#8230; if this is his shower and he was sitting here, I was like&#8230;Well, if this is his shower, and he&#8217;s sitting here, I was like right there on my knees, and his bathtub was right here, and I was taking them here, and I was just going through the pictures, and I heard this loud ring, and Jodi goes through the motions of Travis out of the shower on his knees. That gun going off in a tile bathroom would certainly make you ears ring, and I think the gun did jam. She mentions her purse being on the dresser in the bedroom, and she could of made it there and back by the time Travis was at the sink. Jodi liked knives and I'm sure she carried one. Anyway I agree that stranger things have happened and it a possibility here.

What you keep going back to, then, is JA's word. Why would you believe anything she said about that day?

 

[Hope4More]

I am positive the gunshot was first...well, 99 percent...and for all of you who didn't believe me that Beth Karas also believes that, she finally mentioned what she believes on her post day of trial Video. Exactly what she had told me.

And BK's qualifications as anything other than a guesser are......

 

[grayhuze]

But, Horn didn't lie. Flores didn't lie. Martinez didn't lie. Geffner was a pathetic unqualified hired gun then, and in the retrial on other matters.

This is what I mean. If you hold all of the witnesses, regardless of the side they are on to the same standard you would see that Horn was not truthful when he said he never remember speaking to Flores about the case. Can I prove that. NO, but it's when Jodi says she can't remember the killing. Yes, she does. Flores knows exactly what Horn told him and had say He was mistaken to preserve Horn's credibility.

 

[grayhuze]

And BK's qualifications as anything other than a guesser are......

well, people didn't believe that she messaged me telling me that. Anyhow, she has followed the case from
day one. Yes you are right she is not a forensic expert so there is no possibility she can be right.

 

[IdleMind]

It's funny, I actually say a lot of the things you wrote on different forums, but you obviously can write a better synthesis of the information. I understand what you are saying and what I see and what I research but can't articulate it as well, hence the use of videos to explain what I am thinking. Anyhow, I appreciate what you wrote. I find it odd that nobody so far can defend that Horn doesn't remember ever speaking to Flores about the case. That should be a red flag to a critical mind.

Actually, you can defend Horn not remembering stuff. He's said he's done over 6000 autopsies. On 6/11/08 when the autopsy was done, I doubt he had much of any idea how huge the case might become. So, it's stand to reason he'd have done his autopsy and recorded his finding as accurately as he could at the time, done his report and moved on. Now comes trial and he doesn't "remember", and his report offers no sequence. Per his testimony he said he waited to be asked questions. If he really doesn't remember and there's no sequence otherwise stated and he's working with the state, he can say whatever to agree with the state or even the defense. If it's ambiguous and he doesn't remember then he could say whatever. The problem was he ended up in some disagreement with his own report and got caught out. So I think he was accurate in his report when it was done, but now is being less than accurate with the history behind the case. Forget JA for second, this becomes a problem in any case which is where the problem lies.

 

[LinTX]

BBM 1 - I believe he said not "immediately" fatal.

BBM 2 - 'Disabled temporarily' - as in, after a while he'd get up and be back to his old self?

And to the point above by IdleMind - how would the bullet enter the sinal cavity without passing through the frontal lobe first and after crashing through the plate below the brain? I believe that JSS addressed the issue of the State changing from gunshot first to gunshot last from a motion filed by the defense (since another judge had ruled in favor of the cruelty issue with gunshot first), I don't think an appeals court is going to award her a new trial on this issue.

Yes, that bone plate is a thorn in the side for those who say the bullet somehow missed the brain. As Horn said, it *had* to have gone through the frontal lobe.
Just FTR, Nurmi took this issue to both the COA and the AZ Supreme Court and was turned down by both. The aggravator stood, should have and is not an appeal issue, they're not going to change their mind about it.

 

[grayhuze]

Actually, you can defend Horn not remembering stuff. He's said he's done over 6000 autopsies. On 6/11/08 when the autopsy was done, I doubt he had much of any idea how huge the case might become. So, it's stand to reason he'd have done his autopsy and recorded his finding as accurately as he could at the time, done his report and moved on. Now comes trial and he doesn't "remember", and his report offers no sequence. Per his testimony he said he waited to be asked questions. If he really doesn't remember and there's no sequence otherwise stated and he's working with the state, he can say whatever to agree with the state or even the defense. If it's ambiguous and he doesn't remember then he could say whatever. The problem was he ended up in some disagreement with his own report and got caught out. So I think he was accurate in his report when it was done, but now is being less than accurate with the history behind the case. Forget JA for second, this becomes a problem in any case which is where the problem lies.

so he doesn't remember ever speaking to Flores in the biggest case of his life? ok...I disagree.

 

[grayhuze]

Actually, you can defend Horn not remembering stuff. He's said he's done over 6000 autopsies. On 6/11/08 when the autopsy was done, I doubt he had much of any idea how huge the case might become. So, it's stand to reason he'd have done his autopsy and recorded his finding as accurately as he could at the time, done his report and moved on. Now comes trial and he doesn't "remember", and his report offers no sequence. Per his testimony he said he waited to be asked questions. If he really doesn't remember and there's no sequence otherwise stated and he's working with the state, he can say whatever to agree with the state or even the defense. If it's ambiguous and he doesn't remember then he could say whatever. The problem was he ended up in some disagreement with his own report and got caught out. So I think he was accurate in his report when it was done, but now is being less than accurate with the history behind the case. Forget JA for second, this becomes a problem in any case which is where the problem lies.

You also seem to believe Horn had no other communications after the autopsy until trial. That just isn't the case.

 

[LinTX]

<Mod Snip>
Grayhuze, did a good job with all these videos. I don't completely agree with his proffered scenario. The issue with Dr Horn: Per his testimony, his report doesn't include any sequences of events. He has no recall of every telling Flores anything. As lead detective on the case Flores had an interest and duty to obtain the MEs finding in the case and was present for the autopsy per his report and per Horns report. As per Horns testimony in the retrial. The penetrating stab would to the heart, did not cause blood in the mouth. The incised wound to the stomach, did not intersect the stomach or intestines to cause blood into the mouth. As per first trial, he doesn't know whether the lungs were nicked or not since they were not pristine enough to determine. Again as per re-trail and previous trial, the bullet went through the sinus cavities in the head. Also I don't think the blood in the right ear canal was ever addressed.
So scenarios with Horn.
1) Per Horn with the cut to the throat TA unconscious in seconds and dies in minutes. He would not be standing at the sink or engaged in defensive actions or fight hard after that. That would be the last fatal wound not including gun shot after that point. Basically what ever they were doing ended after that slit throat.
2) Essential Horn says aside from the neck slit, none of the other wounds would have cause blood in TA's mouth. The blood comes from the bullet passing through the sinuses and draining into the mouth. The question becomes how does the bullet passes through the sinus and through the frontal lobe. The bone can deflect the bullet, but what path would it take to get into the sinuses after entering the frontal lobe and ending up in the maxilla? You'd think Horn would have no less that two perforations to the duramater and the other membranes surrounding the brain. Also on recross in the original trial, Martinez got Horn to acknowledge haemorrhaging inside the cheek where the bullet was. Keep in mind that haemorrhaging supposed occurs while the heart is pumping.
3) In addition in previous hearings or conversations, Flores discusses with Horn, the injuries to support the F(6) aggravaters. If knife was first it would likely support both the heinous and deprave aspects of the F(6) aggravaters to make for a more compelling case in '09 for support of the DP.

Conclusion:
In seeking the DP something like this issue should not be in question. The state has had two position on the issue suggesting uncertainty which is reasonable doubt. In contrast to the DeVault trial, there was less uncertainty about what happen. She struck him on the head with a hammer while he was sleeping. The state if it seeks the DP has a duty to the people to get accurate and truthful facts about the case. If they are to ask a jury to commit premeditate murder and an ultimate irreversible sanction, the facts should be beyond a reasonable doubt as stated by law. IMO, a retrial needs to be granted in this case and the can properly convicted and sentence JA to DP if that's what the case proves. To do it on the current basis works against the interest of the people of the state of AZ and the rest of society.

BBM #1, If you're talking about the picture, I'm not sure it was blood. Horn said there was some decomp fluid coming from the ear IIRC

BBM #2, If you mean the trajectory from the exit point to the maxilla, it wouldn't be much of an angle to get there. And as he said, the dura mater was a typo and there had to have been two for that large hole to have been there. As for bleeding in the cheek, can you point me to that testimony? I have transcripts and searched but don't find that.

BBM #3, Flores said it was a short conversation in 09 primarily about pain and suffering & he said the other time he & Horn spoke was at the autopsy. Not sure what you mean on the aggravator - it was in the first Chronis hearing in 2009 that cruelty was proved with gunshot first, then affirmed in 2013 w/ gunshot last.

 

[Renee110]

Here is where horn says he doesn't remember ever speaking to Flores about this case...yeah..right. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=D8k_rP9Xm3w#t=3886

You DO know, right, that at the beginning, especially when the autopsy was done, and they didn't know who did this, and this wasn't a circus yet, that this was not a memorable or exciting or famous murder. Dr. Horn, I'm sure, does many autopsies so therefore why on EARTH would he remember any details about this autopsy? Look at how many years ago this actually happened. This was just one autopsy Dr. Horn did out of many, and there was nothing especially newsworthy or anything at the time he did it. The victim wasn't a famous person who was murdered. I bet if Dr. Horn kept a diary, he probably wrote in it that night….nothing noteworthy to report.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

Yes they did, but as I said they never called an MD or an ME. He's a psychologist with no education or training in this field, only in carrying the defense's water for a fee.



I never said he didn't say what you quoted originally, I said you took a fragment of it out for your purposes, which was exactly what you did originally. And btw, if you read my post you would know I already posted a link to that video testimony and the transcript, so no need to quote those partials for us again. As for "He looked over at Juan and then changed it", none of us can tell who or what he glanced at and none of us have any proof that he ever thought TA was not incapacitated - that is opinion not fact. Asked and answered your "odd" question a couple times. Now are you going to answer my question on the exit point?
If not I have to assume you can't, and that you realize that it's a problem for your theory.

I was being sarcastic. I thought how odd to have a psychologist rebut a medical doctor, but then it was the defense, and nothing new, nothing noteworthy in their experts opinion.
.