Crime Scene Photos #3 ***WARNING - GRAPHIC DISCUSSION***

[concentric]

I was wondering if KC (with or without help) would be able to lift the sewer cover with that shovel or other tool and if so, where would that sewer system lead to? The following picture, from your above source (thanks MADJGNLAW) shows a manhole at the Caylee site.

http://media.myfoxorlando.com/photogalleries/021809remainsfoundOCSOpictures_set4/1/lg/196443.htm

Perhaps the rising water in August allowed the bag to escape through a faulty piping system and that is why KC was in so much shock when it was found. She just wasn't expecting that to happen.

Just a crazy theory perhaps.

Makes sense to me. I saw what appeared to be a round pipe which was where Caylee went--in a dream months ago I posted in the Dreams section.

 

[illinoismom]

Makes sense to me. I saw what appeared to be a round pipe which was where Caylee went--in a dream months ago I posted in the Dreams section.

WOW! I had a similar dream also....except the "lid" to the hole was green in my dream. (I also posted this in the dreams thread awhile back)

 

[MAMABEAR]

Certainly not trying to dissuade you from the potting soil being integrally involved, countzero. Just trying to be fair and point out...

a) Other landscaping-type debris was recovered from the general disposal location area
b) As a result of the flooding you can think of the place like one big stew...things floated everywhere...so where thing were found isn't necessarily where they were placed/tossed.​

Maybe I'm just confusing things. I just try to point out this isn't a clear-cut black & white thing. Esp. for folks that haven't had time to look @ some the details you might just read "potting soil bags found with the body" and think, well...DUH :doh: Kinda the NG-effect, IYKWIM.

IIRC, the body was something in the neighborhood of 20-30' off the curb. Easy toss from small objects like beer bottles, etc. If there'd been a roadsign nearby I coulda hit it w/ a Little Kings bottle @ 35MPH when I was a little more in-practice

Very interesting point about how current this area would be used by kids, hence, body eventually being discovered. Maybe Kio gave details 'bout the timing of when their group would've hung out there. I'm thinking that's pre-16-driver's-license-kinda stuff, hence, minimum 6+ years ago for Casey. With Wii, etc, etc. I'm guessing this area has probably seen alot less traffic with kids as a hangout in that time.

One other comment I can't resist:

* Its not the spiders & snakes...its the 'whatnots' you hafta watch out for, esp. in Florida

To bad a "whatnot" didn't get hold of her/him.

 

[christee]

I was wondering if KC (with or without help) would be able to lift the sewer cover with that shovel or other tool and if so, where would that sewer system lead to? The following picture, from your above source (thanks MADJGNLAW) shows a manhole at the Caylee site.

http://media.myfoxorlando.com/photogalleries/021809remainsfoundOCSOpictures_set4/1/lg/196443.htm

Perhaps the rising water in August allowed the bag to escape through a faulty piping system and that is why KC was in so much shock when it was found. She just wasn't expecting that to happen.

Just a crazy theory perhaps.

Hi Noddy!
Good post-Were you thinking of Tropical Storm Faye and all the rain it brought abt Aug 19th? (well discussed in another thread). All that water had to go somewhere and could've carried anything with it!

 

[BondJamesBond]

*snipped so I could append*
Wk ending Rainfall amount

6/8/2008 0.4
6/15/2008 1.71
6/22/2008 1.42
6/29/2008 2.02
7/6/2008 0.94
7/13/2008 2.27
7/20/2008 2.2
7/27/2008 0.84
8/3/2008 0.31
8/10/2008 0.51
8/11-13/2008 Water prevents RK & LE from close inspection of suspicious items.
8/17/2008 0.83
8/24/2008 8.35
8/31/2008 3.14
9/7/2008 0
9/14/2008 0.81
9/21/2008 1.48
9/28/2008 0.34
10/5/2008 0.02
10/12/2008 4.09
10/19/2008 0
10/26/2008 0.74
11/2/2008 0.03
11/8/2008* Weekend of enmass TES search
11/9/2008 0.01
11/15/2008* Date DC, PI is filmed entering the woods and prodding the ground near a pink blanket suggesting no water @ this time
11/16/2008 0.05
11/23/2008 0
11/30/2008 0.76
12/7/2008 0.05
12/11/2008 RK finds Caylee's remains. No water at crime scene.
12/14/2008 0.58

* Added key events to Hot Dogs already compiled overlay of the rainfall totals FWIW

FYI...rainfall info

 

[noonie]

Wow, no wonder she made the statement way back when that they didn't even find her clothes!! She seemed too confident in the beginning and now she is not too sure at all. She is way too nervious. She freaked because she knew her little plan back-fired! JMO

 

[Noddy]

Hi Noddy!
Good post-Were you thinking of Tropical Storm Faye and all the rain it brought abt Aug 19th? (well discussed in another thread). All that water had to go somewhere and could've carried anything with it!

Hi christee :wave: yes I was thinking of Faye. That would put a wrench into Roy K's story but it would also explain why the earlier local searches wouldn't produce anything. Perhaps there were water surges and storms prior to Faye that would cause the scenerio to happen. I don't know if they keep records of water levels of retention ponds around there but I expect they do.

 

[countzero]

Certainly not trying to dissuade you from the potting soil being integrally involved, countzero. Just trying to be fair and point out...
Nope, you are not trying to dissuade my thinking here. I want to be able to either include or toss out all parameters and thoughts.

a) Other landscaping-type debris was recovered from the general disposal location area
b) As a result of the flooding you can think of the place like one big stew...things floated everywhere...so where thing were found isn't necessarily where they were placed/tossed.​

I take this into consideration too.


Maybe I'm just confusing things. I just try to point out this isn't a clear-cut black & white thing. Esp. for folks that haven't had time to look @ some the details you might just read "potting soil bags found with the body" and think, well...DUH :doh: Kinda the NG-effect, IYKWIM.
sure do

IIRC, the body was something in the neighborhood of 20-30' off the curb. Easy toss from small objects like beer bottles, etc. If there'd been a roadsign nearby I coulda hit it w/ a Little Kings bottle @ 35MPH when I was a little more in-practice

are we saying we are getting older, like me :crazy:

Very interesting point about how current this area would be used by kids, hence, body eventually being discovered. Maybe Kio gave details 'bout the timing of when their group would've hung out there. I'm thinking that's pre-16-driver's-license-kinda stuff, hence, minimum 6+ years ago for Casey. With Wii, etc, etc. I'm guessing this area has probably seen alot less traffic with kids as a hangout in that time.
This is what hit my brain cells after reading about this for months. KC friends were going there in Jr/H school. And no doubt not going there after they started driving or had friends that drove. The oldest would probably be around the age of 13-14 if that.


One other comment I can't resist:

* Its not the spiders & snakes...its the 'whatnots' you hafta watch out for, esp. in Florida

Yea, well I lived in Fla for three long years and know about all those whatnots that hang around uninvited. Both human and animal :clown:

Again, thanks BJB

 

[Hot Dogs]

If you look at the rainfall records and the notations we made for what was going on and the presence of water (flooded body location) - you can predict that the location was likely under water at about the time the body would have been dumped. We see that 1.71" fell on 6/15, and then 1.42" on 6/22.

If it is true that the remains location was flooded, and there was no significant movement of the bags and body - then the person who placed the body either waded out into water (6-10 feet? according to Kronk) or they tossed the canvas bag out into the water. The only appropriate wading footwear in Casey's seized collection would be the tall rubber boots and flip-flops. It could have been done barefoot.

 

[HRCODEPINK]

After analyzing JW's interview, and BB's interview and reading BJB's insightful post.

I think that she DID use the potting soil and the extra dirt from the yard. JWray states she did not see anything in that location PRIOR to the flooding. If the bags were covered with potting soil she WOULD NOT HAVE seen anything.

However, Ray Kronk sees stuff as early as August 11th? This is still before the floods?
Could the body have completely decomposed to the point RK saw a skull in August?

I am wondering about the potting soil as well, and it appeared that in one of the pictures there was a small shovel. Where was it found? Was this perfectly good shovel disposed of with potting soil and pots??? Was it not a shovel? If so, why would someone do that? It looked new on the tip, not rusted at all.

Warning Graphic!! I have done quite a bit of research on the rate of decomposition. Back in the older threads on the topic I remember reading that out in the elements, not buried or in water, it generally on average takes a year to fully decompose, if animals and such are not getting to it, however, we have to take into consideration that the baby was most likely in a garbage bag, in a car trunk, in the heat of Florida in June, which would greatly speed up the rate of decomposition. I am sorry for saying it this was, but fact are fact. I can't imagine that when she finally dumped poor Caylee that the bag was not mostly liquid and bones at that point. Besides the increased rate of decomposition, the smell would have attracted animals and bugs and that would have sped things up ever more. By mid July, it may have been too late for tissue to be found.

 

[s1rebecca]

Was there a run off drain along the curb with a pipe that spits water out in the area. She could have rolled here down that run off drain pretty easily or used the shovel to push the bag down the culvert. The run off water could have pushed her out to the spot she was eventually found. In my subdivision in georgia we have these drains along the curb and it is only about 3 or 4 feet back and something would drop right into the storm drain. Does this make sense.

 

[christee]

OK my brain just had a spasm. I remember posting a report from Botanist David Hall on another thread abt plant and root growth where caylee was found. I believe part of the findings (pg 2) showed that Caylee was possibly in the same place she was found for no less than 4 mos and maybe 6 mos (if anyone reads differently feel free to correct this).

Pgs 1-3
http://media.myfoxorlando.com/photo...ypages3802to3845/1/lg/3802-3845-1_Page_10.htm

BJB/Hot Dogs link:
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3388647#post3388647"]Crime Scene Photos #3 - Page 30 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


I'm just wondering if comparing the above info would shed any light on the timeline (If not just pretend you didn't read this-lol).

 

[Noddy]

OK my brain just had a spasm. I remember posting a report from Botanist David Hall on another thread abt plant and root growth where caylee was found. I believe part of the findings (pg 2) showed that Caylee was possibly in the same place she was found for no less than 4 mos and maybe 6 mos (if anyone reads differently feel free to correct this).

Pgs 1-3
http://media.myfoxorlando.com/photo...ypages3802to3845/1/lg/3802-3845-1_Page_10.htm

BJB/Hot Dogs link:
Crime Scene Photos #3 - Page 30 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


I'm just wondering if comparing the above info would shed any light on the timeline (If not just pretend you didn't read this-lol).

This is what I'm reading from Mr. H. The plastic bag in pic 241-246 from his report was definitely in the same place in the fall but the timeline for its placement could be anywhere from 3 to 6 months prior to discovery ... that's anywhere from June through to September. Not too definitive for a timeline. The bones were decomposed enough to have large root growth anywhere from September to December; after the area dried out. Now that's my brain spasm!

 

[Anniegirl]

Off topic somewhat.. although i dont like a lot of the A's ways i cant blame them for hating Caylee's "resting place". As Marc Klass also feels about pollys place of discovery..i can see why they cant stand the area.

Although, I am sure people are just letting them know ;'they care' that awful place is a bad reminder. I would have to move..

 

[BondJamesBond]

If you look at the rainfall records and the notations we made for what was going on and the presence of water (flooded body location) - you can predict that the location was likely under water at about the time the body would have been dumped. We see that 1.71" fell on 6/15, and then 1.42" on 6/22.

If it is true that the remains location was flooded, and there was no significant movement of the bags and body - then the person who placed the body either waded out into water (6-10 feet? according to Kronk) or they tossed the canvas bag out into the water. The only appropriate wading footwear in Casey's seized collection would be the tall rubber boots and flip-flops. It could have been done barefoot.

Hey, HD. :wave:

I haven't looked up the Apr-Jun data, but, do recall Tim Miller making a comment when LP had divers searching the Little Econ @ JBPark. Tim commented about the water level of the Little Econ back in June should've been very low (vs. where the Blackwater divers were searching) as the result of drought-like conditions. So...depending on how much rainfall they had prior to the disposal...it might not be an apples-to-apples comparison, IYKWIM.

 

[christee]

This is what I'm reading from Mr. H. The plastic bag in pic 241-246 from his report was definitely in the same place in the fall but the timeline for its placement could be anywhere from 3 to 6 months prior to discovery ... that's anywhere from June through to September. Not too definitive for a timeline. The bones were decomposed enough to have large root growth anywhere from September to December; after the area dried out. Now that's my brain spasm!

Ok now a Synapse just fired!
Anyway it's that last paragraph on pg 2 that says that the largest root growth "could indicate a minimum period of 4 mos", and the 1st paragraph of pg 3 that stick out (at least to me). That would put the remains in that spot possibly no later than abt Aug 11th and maybe as early as June? Based on Mr BJB/Hot Dogs chart, on Aug 11-13 Roy K and LE couldn't get a close look at suspicious items. So was there standing water right before and after Faye hit? Is that what I'm trying to say?
What could this mean, if anything?

 

[BondJamesBond]

Ok now a Synapse just fired!
Anyway it's that last paragraph on pg 2 that says that the largest root growth "could indicate a minimum period of 4 mos", and the 1st paragraph of pg 3 that stick out (at least to me). That would put the remains in that spot possibly no later than abt Aug 11th and maybe as early as June? Based on Mr BJB/Hot Dogs chart, on Aug 11-13 Roy K and LE couldn't get a close look at suspicious items. So was there standing water right before and after Faye hit? Is that what I'm trying to say?
What could this mean, if anything?

*bold by me*

A SYNAPSE FIRE!!! Since I'm virtually free of synapses I'm qualified to put this one out...standback everybody...I'm goin' in!

Just based on reading the info in your post, Christee, I think the bottom line is that the root growth indicates someone didn't just drop the body there - say within the last 4 months. The body was there since at least August. And IF what Roy & officer-whathisface saw was indeed the bag(s) of disposed remains...whilst flooded...well then...you've got a reasonable case to say they were there prior to the date of that sighting.

OK...synapse reduced to smoldering...its now safe for someone w/ an actual brain to step in here.

 

[christee]

*bold by me*

A SYNAPSE FIRE!!! Since I'm virtually free of synapses I'm qualified to put this one out...standback everybody...I'm goin' in!

Just based on reading the info in your post, Christee, I think the bottom line is that the root growth indicates someone didn't just drop the body there - say within the last 4 months. The body was there since at least August. And IF what Roy & officer-whathisface saw was indeed the bag(s) of disposed remains...whilst flooded...well then...you've got a reasonable case to say they were there prior to the date of that sighting.

OK...synapse reduced to smoldering...its now safe for someone w/ an actual brain to step in here.

Lol! thanks BJB! I think that's what I was thinkin'!

Seems like a good time to rest what few Synapses I have left!

 

[nyvictoria]

http://media.myfoxorlando.com/photogalleries/021809remainsfoundOCSOpictures_set7/indexGallery.htm

okay so its the 1st pic in the second row.

and in the 11th or 12th row of pics they focus on this one branch sticking out of the ground. Is it possible that that is what she borrowed shovel for to place this branch there as an identifying marker. idk just wondering here

belle3, I bumped this up for you

If you do a search here and the other crime scene photo threads, you'll probably find some discussion of these photos.

 

[doogiesgirl]

No crazier than anything else, Noddy.

FWIW...found this general ref. to manhole cover weighing 'bout 100 lbs. (45kgs). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhole_cover

As far as we know Casey returned the shovel to Brian w/o leaving G&C's...not impossible, just AFAIK.

Above bolded by Doogiesgirl.

But IIRC didn't BB say that on the day KC borrowed the shovel he gave it to her, finished up in his yard, went inside his house and took a shower. He said that before he went to get his shower that he told his young son that if someone knocked at the door, it was ok to answer if it was KC as she would be returning a shovel. I don't know about his son's age but I think he said he was around 12/13. I have a son that age and I can say for sure the last thing he would be doing inside the house is watching out the window at what our neighbors are doing. So, in theory, it is possible that KC could've left while BB was in the shower. The remains site is what seconds drive from her house, by car? Also, I am wondering if when KC and her friends went to their "hang out area as young uns" if she didn't have/use a back way to get there. Is it possible for her to go around the back yard fence, and down the back yard lines to the remains site? Maybe not when she dumped Caylee there but to go back if she forgot to do something or to add something/get rid of something, could she have done that on foot, behind all the houses, going to the remains site? I know I knew at that age, where to go into the woods to get to the creek, etc., and so did the other kids, at our suburb.

A possibility anyway. moo