Identified! CT - Stonington (Ledyard), WhtFem UP8909, 18-30, JNHS 1917 Class Ring, Lady Clairol hair roller set, May'74 - Linda Sue Childers

[J. J. in Phila]

Oh ITA about the ring!

I'm not really focusing on the phone records, but if I were, I would only be interested in repeated calls. Then only those repeated calls I would look further.

Repeated and there are other numbers in the same geographic area (like about a mile away). They were not too close to where she phoned.

 

[FiveFelines]

Maybe I'm just a skeptic, but how do we know for sure those phone calls were made by the UID rather than Carmichael? If they were living together or ever had company over, those numbers could mean nothing to the UID. I'm not saying they might not be relevant, but it might be tunnel vision to go that route. JMHO

What frustrates me is that Namus, etc., say these are "calls she is known to have made." But how do they know that? If it was a home phone, why is the bill not in her name? How can they say for certain that she made these calls, vs. Carmichael or a friend or whomever? And if it was a business phone, what business was it and how do they know she was the employee who made the calls?

There are probably simple answers to these questions but law enforcement has not shared them for whatever reason.

 

[MrsTigglesworth]

I wouldn't give up as her being a possibility just yet. The UID was murdered Dec. 31, 1970. Unless, of course, the marriage occurred AFTER that date. MOO

Yes, the two marriages and one divorce that I found were AFTER 1971. The city directory did not have a date on when the info was taken, just that it was 1971, like most phone books. I haven't had time to do any more major searching on ancestry yet, bull will once school starts!

 

[sleuthinforfun]

What frustrates me is that Namus, etc., say these are "calls she is known to have made." But how do they know that? If it was a home phone, why is the bill not in her name? How can they say for certain that she made these calls, vs. Carmichael or a friend or whomever? And if it was a business phone, what business was it and how do they know she was the employee who made the calls?

There are probably simple answers to these questions but law enforcement has not shared them for whatever reason.

Absolutely! Like I said, I'm a skeptic, and the certainty of the calls is rather frustrating especially for the time (when there was one phone line that multiple people would use).

 

[sleuthinforfun]

No, I agree with you there. IMO, LC is not our UID but I do think she probably knew her.

LC was a named suspect with 3 other men (I'd have to pay to find which 3, unless someone can find it elsewhere), one I assume to be Carmichael since another paper had the two names together in an article. Rough memory is '68. (Is that when Carmichael was incarcerated in MA before his escape?) I don't know the other men named in that article, but I would bet it's the same 2 who killed Carmichael and UID.

 

[sleuthinforfun]

Yes, the two marriages and one divorce that I found were AFTER 1971. The city directory did not have a date on when the info was taken, just that it was 1971, like most phone books. I haven't had time to do any more major searching on ancestry yet, bull will once school starts!

Thanks for the update! I'm glad she's not the UID! Now I believe she may have known the UID.

Yay for school! :great:

 

[alliemay]

LC was a named suspect with 3 other men (I'd have to pay to find which 3, unless someone can find it elsewhere), one I assume to be Carmichael since another paper had the two names together in an article. Rough memory is '68. (Is that when Carmichael was incarcerated in MA before his escape?) I don't know the other men named in that article, but I would bet it's the same 2 who killed Carmichael and UID.

Know what you mean about the memory thing for the 1968 robbery, I was trying to make a list of the "players".

From my notes, this is what I have.
Roger Joseph Brown - 22yrs old - Lewistown area - escaped with Carmichael
Richard D. Labbe - 23 yrs old - Norwalk or Hartford? shot by police/recovered
Lucille Civetilli - 21 yrs old - conspiracy charge - New Britain
Carmichael
I also have the name William Royce 3510 Washington Street Dorchester Mass. written down on a piece of paper along with Carmichael and Brown's name and the year 1968. I wish there was just one article with all the names of the people associated with this bank robbery in 1968.

Thomas N. Dunleavy 18 yrs. old - Hartford - picked up but then released
Gerald J. Podolske 27 yrs. old - Manchester - not sure if charged with anything may have been part of the robbery ring I have seen mentioned in some articles. Could have been picked up because the Podolske name had been used by either Carmichael or Brown at one time.
I believe Richard Rand a policeman was shot in this robbery also.

I think Brant and Gardner were tied to the 1970 robbery with Carmichael.
Afterwards meeting DeFreitas and Rainello. Which leads me to think that Carmichael met this woman before he escaped in October of 1970. I'm more interested in the people in his life before he escaped, all though DeFreitas and Rainello are interesting and I think out of the two of them Rainello would be the one who knew the girls first name at least.

 

[FiveFelines]

LC was a named suspect with 3 other men (I'd have to pay to find which 3, unless someone can find it elsewhere), one I assume to be Carmichael since another paper had the two names together in an article. Rough memory is '68. (Is that when Carmichael was incarcerated in MA before his escape?) I don't know the other men named in that article, but I would bet it's the same 2 who killed Carmichael and UID.

I think the names are mentioned earlier in this thread. I know one of them is Richard Labbe, who was shot in the neck during the robbery and was supposedly LC's boyfriend (and supposedly lived with her).

IIRC, Defreitas and the others who murdered Carmichael and UID were not part of that 1968 robbery. Defreitas offered Carmichael and UID a place to stay in CT after Carmichael escaped en route to prison in 1970.

So many players in this story! And yet apparently no one knows UID's identity? I find that odd.

ETA: I should look before posting! Skeet has the correct list of all the people involved in that robbery.

 

[psyquestor]

Ilonka Cann resembles the Jane Doe somewhat.

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/c/cann_ilonka.html

Any chance that she would leave a husband and child to hang-out with Carmichael?

I haven't had a chance to read through the whole thread yet, but noticed the other Does did not have curled hair, this one does. Found with the MP were a set of Clairol rollers. Going to guess they were pretty important for them to have been on her person.

just a thought -

 

[Skigirl]

Maybe I'm just a skeptic, but how do we know for sure those phone calls were made by the UID rather than Carmichael? If they were living together or ever had company over, those numbers could mean nothing to the UID. I'm not saying they might not be relevant, but it might be tunnel vision to go that route. JMHO

I guess it makes sense to me that if investigators said that they are known to have been made by the victim, they probably (though possibly didn't) knew that somehow. We have so little to go on that it seems like as good a use of time and effort as chasing down any of the other leads we've been pursuing. Maybe nothing will come of it, but you never know.

 

[Skigirl]

Considering the article saying she was also a suspect, I would, at least, think she might have known the UID if it's not her. Especially since the account of him seeming to love the UID and he wouldn't have parted with her easily and that makes me doubt it was just a prostitute he fell in love with in 3 months. MOO

I tend to agree that he probably knew her for more than the six days that he was seen with her in Connecticut... but we do know he had some impulse control issues (i.e., all the crimes he committed...not all of them very well thought out), and people like that can be impulsive in other ways, so I wouldn't absolutely rule out that she was someone he had met rather recently and was in the first blush of infatuation/love. In fact, that rings more true to me than a man like that having a long-term stable relationship. Also, if she was with him for any length of time, it doesn't seem to me that she would have been expressing fear about their lifestyle to a new acquaintance because, a) she would be used to the lifestyle since to say Carmichael was a habitual offender is an understatement, and b) if she survived in that lifestyle for very long, she would probably have had more sense than to confide in someone she didn't know very well.

 

[Skigirl]

I also had wondered if the diamond ring Rainello and DeFreitas took into the jewelers in January of 1971 might have been an engagement ring that Carmichael had given to the girl. They brought the ring in to be re-sized but never returned to pick it up. I'd also like to know if the "high school" ring was something that was found on her when they removed her body from the ground. We know that some of her cloths were given by Brant to Brant's wife, and I'm sure the girls curlers were not buried with her. If the ring was not on her body when she was found, it's possible, in trying to cooperate with authorities someone handed them this ring and it didn't even belong to the victim. Just some thoughts.

Namus says, "This is the ring she was wearing when she was found The letters are J H N S or J N H S"

 

[alliemay]

Namus says, "This is the ring she was wearing when she was found The letters are J H N S or J N H S"

I should have included the link for the diamond ring I was talking about with my last post, but I was to lazy to go look for it

But here is the article that mentions the diamond ring.
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - FEATURED CT - Hartford, WhtFem UP8909, 18-30, JNHS 1917 Class Ring, May'74

 

[Tulessa]

Was That class ring on her finger?

 

[alliemay]

Was That class ring on her finger?

That's what I wondered also, if the ring was actually on her body when they they dug her up, or was it given to police later as items that had belonged to her.

 

[Tulessa]

That's what I wondered also, if the ring was actually on her body when they they dug her up, or was it given to police later as items that had belonged to her.

With it being so old, I'm wondering if it was lost, and they just got unlucky burying her on top of it?

 

[Skigirl]

That's what I wondered also, if the ring was actually on her body when they they dug her up, or was it given to police later as items that had belonged to her.

Namus says she was wearing the ring when she was found.

 

[Skigirl]

Here's a really interesting account of Carmichael's escape. At the time, Lewiston authorities believed he and his buddy, Roger Joseph Brown, might have been headed back to Maine, but other accounts said they were heading down I-91 toward New York. I wonder what happened to his friend after they escaped. They were arrested together more than once AND escaped together.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...ZsgAAAAIBAJ&sjid=GWgFAAAAIBAJ&pg=3208,3950244

 

[fred&edna]

Here's a really interesting account of Carmichael's escape. At the time, Lewiston authorities believed he and his buddy, Roger Joseph Brown, might have been headed back to Maine, but other accounts said they were heading down I-91 toward New York. I wonder what happened to his friend after they escaped. They were arrested together more than once AND escaped together.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...ZsgAAAAIBAJ&sjid=GWgFAAAAIBAJ&pg=3208,3950244

Brown was apprehended January 1971 (and if I'm reading correctly he was in Berlin, NH). Carmichael was thought to still be "at large", but as we know, he was dead.

Sorry for this sloppy c&p (I don't have full access to the site)

NEW HAVEN (AT') - 'Roger Joseph Brown, who escaped Oct. 5 from custody while being transported from the Walpole (Mass.) Penitentiary . to Hartford., for a court appearance, was'take'n into custody Wednesday !n Berlin, N.H., the Federal Bureau ,'dY.'-' Investigation ; lieui repented. . " '." ' i Escaping at the!- same time was Gustavous Lee jCsrrnicheel ,' 23, of Boston who/. is = still at; loiofio. ■"■ . Botlrhad pleaded ^guilty last July 20 in U.S. District. Court in Hartford to the' Nov* 7, ■ 196S. robbery of-the : west branch. of Hie Hartford ' National Bank S-Trust Co, in Manchester.'. Brown is also under federal indictment for perjury, and' both he rinr! Cai michael 'have been Indicted' by a federal; grand jury in- Hartford. -: on 'charges of escape from f edefal custody, as-sauit on a federal officer and theft of government property, ■The hvo. prisoneTs escaped by overpowering ■ their", guards oh . a highway in Windsor, handcuffing them and a third prisoner to a tree and speeding away, in the 1959 car in . which they were THE BRIDGEPORT TELEGRAM, THURSDAY, JANUARY 21, 1971 being -transported, Brown and Carmlchael ialsb /allegedly . stole a .38-calihcf revolver from of the guavda. The guards' i third prisoner - were' found shortotime later by a tobacco larnier who heard their call, for. help. : Police : found.1 'the ' ca abandoned in Hartford. The FBf said the Berlin, N.H, police helped in apprehending Hrnwn,: 34, of Lewiston, Maine, Further details on the arrest were not -immediately available.

http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/32496505/

 

[Skigirl]

Brown was apprehended January 1971 (and if I'm reading correctly he was in Berlin, NH). Carmichael was thought to still be "at large", but as we know, he was dead.

Sorry for this sloppy c&p (I don't have full access to the site)

NEW HAVEN (AT') - 'Roger Joseph Brown, who escaped Oct. 5 from custody while being transported from the Walpole (Mass.) Penitentiary . to Hartford., for a court appearance, was'take'n into custody Wednesday !n Berlin, N.H., the Federal Bureau ,'dY.'-' Investigation ; lieui repented. . " '." ' i Escaping at the!- same time was Gustavous Lee jCsrrnicheel ,' 23, of Boston who/. is = still at; loiofio. ■"■ . Botlrhad pleaded ^guilty last July 20 in U.S. District. Court in Hartford to the' Nov* 7, ■ 196S. robbery of-the : west branch. of Hie Hartford ' National Bank S-Trust Co, in Manchester.'. Brown is also under federal indictment for perjury, and' both he rinr! Cai michael 'have been Indicted' by a federal; grand jury in- Hartford. -: on 'charges of escape from f edefal custody, as-sauit on a federal officer and theft of government property, ■The hvo. prisoneTs escaped by overpowering ■ their", guards oh . a highway in Windsor, handcuffing them and a third prisoner to a tree and speeding away, in the 1959 car in . which they were THE BRIDGEPORT TELEGRAM, THURSDAY, JANUARY 21, 1971 being -transported, Brown and Carmlchael ialsb /allegedly . stole a .38-calihcf revolver from of the guavda. The guards' i third prisoner - were' found shortotime later by a tobacco larnier who heard their call, for. help. : Police : found.1 'the ' ca abandoned in Hartford. The FBf said the Berlin, N.H, police helped in apprehending Hrnwn,: 34, of Lewiston, Maine, Further details on the arrest were not -immediately available.

http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/32496505/

Thanks! I wonder when they parted ways. They abandoned the car in Hartford. I wonder who picked them up or how they got out of Hartford and where they went after that. They had stuck together through several robberies AND several escapes.

I've also found an article published on Dec. 12, 1968 that described Brown & Carmichael's capture in Nevada. They were with Gerard Podolske and had $25k in cash, 10 rifles and handguns with ammunition, and a movie camera.