kanzz
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Thanks. I'm on my phone and unfortunately couldn't find the video. BK is 12 yrs older than me, but still ultra cool in my book.
Day Number 1 What Convinces You There Was No Intruder/12 Days of JonBenet
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TX Mia James, 11, Athens, AMBER ALERT issued, 14 November 2024- Latest: tiffkinsadder
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PositiveLight
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Ohhhh crushes! 😂 Hey I have a crush on Jim Clemente! Spiral stair cases are very hard to navigate when carrying anything. Including a body. Which is why I have said IF BR killed her or they thought she was dead at least upstairs in one of their bedrooms, then even if BR could carry her a short distance, he couldn't carry her down those spiral stairs. IF she was found upstairs, unconscious and appeared to be dead, I think they cleaned her upstairs and took her down to the area outside the WC. Applied the final ligature that ended her life and her bladder released. I think her dad had to have carried her down those spiral stairs. I also said a while back that there's no way she was able to step over the ransom note on those stairs. She would break her neck trying to.
The one million dollar question is how they were able to handle this ransom note without getting fingerprints on it. Plus one of the people they called over that morning came through that back door and was able to read the ransom book on the floor spread out in front of the door. Yet no fingerprints were left. Even moving it from the stair to the floor should have left partials. Also something that bothers me is when JR refers to this letter he said he was trying to be careful and not contaminate the pages. Yet he carries his obviously deceased daughter upstairs and critically messes up the main crime scene. She had the odor of death. If you've ever smelled it you know the person is way past any help.
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kanzz
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It's hard for me to imagine that it all started upstairs, but we'll never know. That's partly because I think BDI all, and I don't think he could ever get her down two flights of stairs. I'm more inclined to think it all happened in the basement or that it started on the first floor and he dragged her down to the basement.
I question if the RN was ever on the spiral staircase at all. Her obvious lie about stepping over it tells me it was not. JB on his hands and knees reading it on the floor (if that really happened) tells me it was not. This was just another PR fantasy, imo.
I've always wondered about the odor of decomp. JB was on a concrete floor in the basement (relatively cool) for approx 12 hrs. She would have had a foul odor, granted, due to the old urine on her clothes and possibly some oral and gastric odors after the tape was removed; but aside from that, I wouldn't think there would have been too much in the way of the odor of decomposition. And you're right - he worried about contaminating the paper, but not the other part of the crime scene. Although, if he truly didn't know she was there until then, maybe he just freaked out. IDK. It's such a puzzle.
Duchess518
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Ok. So I am reading a few books on this subject. One happens to be "The Death of Innocence" by the Ramsey's. JR describes the attire that JBR wore to the White's Christmas party. It doesn't match at all what JBR was found in.
We KNOW that her bottoms were changed. But it appears her top was to. Why? The Ramsey's stated JBR never woke up. JR states he carried her upstairs took of her shoes and socks and PR finished getting her ready for bed. But they never said they changed her clothes. (I wouldn't risk waking my child up to change her. I'd let her sleep).
My question is. why change her clothes at all? An intruder sure wouldn't have done it. I can only think that they changed her after she was dead to get rid of evidence?
What does everyone think? They changed her before strangling her? Because she was found in oversized panties with urine stains. I'm positive that whoever did the strangling did not realize she was still alive.
We KNOW that her bottoms were changed. But it appears her top was to. Why? The Ramsey's stated JBR never woke up. JR states he carried her upstairs took of her shoes and socks and PR finished getting her ready for bed. But they never said they changed her clothes. (I wouldn't risk waking my child up to change her. I'd let her sleep).
My question is. why change her clothes at all? An intruder sure wouldn't have done it. I can only think that they changed her after she was dead to get rid of evidence?
What does everyone think? They changed her before strangling her? Because she was found in oversized panties with urine stains. I'm positive that whoever did the strangling did not realize she was still alive.
PositiveLight
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That's an issue I have too. Why would you wake your sleeping child up to change them knowing you still had to pack and get up early. A sane person would let them sleep. I could maybe see putting on some pull ups but changing her whole outfit? I think what bothers most people is the common sense things that don't add up. The way the ransom note was handled. The ransom note itself. That someone would break in a home they are unfamiliar with, use items from all over the house in the commission of the crime, commit the horrendous murder, put BACK items, clean items, clean her, redress her in other clothing, move her to an area many aren't even aware exists, oh I forgot the perp fed her pineapple with cream but only left BR and PRs fingerprints, hung around long enough between the head bash and the ligature strangulation to allow swelling to occur (45 min-2 hours) penetrate her with an object, and leave absolutely no evidence of their being in the home for so many hours. Not to mention leaving behind the ransom note that was supposed to be written before they arrived home in the IDI theory. It's just silly. It doesn't add up at all. The only thing that does make sense is the RDI. I personally think BR did it intentionally and he choked her with something. His parents found her half naked and bleeding from her vagina not moving. Maybe 45- 2 hrs after he left her body either in the basement or on one of the first two floors. He jabbed her with train tracks at some point and maybe even jabbed at her vagina or explored thinking she would quit faking dead if he caused her pain. Maybe it was something that he had previously done that he knew she would react too. When she didn't move again he ran and hid in his bed and maybe even went to sleep without guilt. Mom found her and screamed and that may be the scream heard by a neighbor. John came running and they realized immediately BR had finally went to far and immediately started the covering up and ransom note.
This would be completely different if the ransom note hadn't been written in the home with a practice note found too. There had actually BEEN a kidnapping. The amount asked for was a more believable amount, and they found her body somewhere outside of the home. Some would say 'well maybe the kidnapper was afraid to move the body' well I say then they wouldn't have attempted it in the first place! The reason nothing in this case makes sense is because a sane person and someone using common sense can figure out that there is no way this was ever an outside intruder. The family was the only people involved in the crime. JMOO
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That sequin-star shirt...it doesn't seem like something you'd sleep in, child or adult.
PositiveLight
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Things that make me think it wasn't an intruder-
The ransom note.
The fact it was never a kidnapping in the first place.
The use of objects already in the home.
The pineapple.
Burke's behavior.
The constant lying by the family.
The never being angry at the perp.
The intentionally compromised crime scene.
The parents letting Burke stay in his room supposedly asleep without protection.
The parents removing him from the home before the body was found.
That she was wrapped in blankets and redressed.
The length of time between the first assault and the last assault that led to her death.
The parents calling everyone and the police when they were told in the ransom note they were being watched and she would be beheaded.
That she was found in the home and no one else was injured.
I could go on for days honestly.
The ransom note.
The fact it was never a kidnapping in the first place.
The use of objects already in the home.
The pineapple.
Burke's behavior.
The constant lying by the family.
The never being angry at the perp.
The intentionally compromised crime scene.
The parents letting Burke stay in his room supposedly asleep without protection.
The parents removing him from the home before the body was found.
That she was wrapped in blankets and redressed.
The length of time between the first assault and the last assault that led to her death.
The parents calling everyone and the police when they were told in the ransom note they were being watched and she would be beheaded.
That she was found in the home and no one else was injured.
I could go on for days honestly.
Duchess518
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SecretaryGal
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We only have their word that she was sleeping when they came home. Could be a lie. Didn't BR say at one time she walked into the house?
Duchess518
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I apologize! I misread the quote.
John is only describing the boots she wore but not the outfit.
"She (Patsy) wanted JonBenet to wear a red turtleneck with her black velvet pants so that mother and daughter would be dressed alike, but JonBenet wanted to wear he complete outfit she'd chosen. Finally Mom gave in. JonBenet out on her outfit with her black boots, which zipped up the front & had a bit of animal print trim along the front."
still why describe the shoes in such detail and not mention the details of the outfit???
PositiveLight
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They can remember the details of her boots but nothing that would actually help solve the crime.. Ramnesia haha
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CorallaroC
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This might not be the best thread to ask this but....
Do we know exactly where the fresh urine stain was located just outside the WC? All the crime details and I'm now scratching my head as to why officer French would have missed seeing that. Maybe the basement was so cluttered and dirty? Or maybe unbeknownst to use he DID look into the WC and saw nothing suspicious? Maybe someday we will get answers. I truly believe there are a LOT more RDI suspicious observations and evidence that we have never seen or heard about. JMO
Do we know exactly where the fresh urine stain was located just outside the WC? All the crime details and I'm now scratching my head as to why officer French would have missed seeing that. Maybe the basement was so cluttered and dirty? Or maybe unbeknownst to use he DID look into the WC and saw nothing suspicious? Maybe someday we will get answers. I truly believe there are a LOT more RDI suspicious observations and evidence that we have never seen or heard about. JMO
I'm having trouble finding it but there is a labeled floorplan out there somewhere that shows it. Essentially it was just outside the WC in that hallway near the boiler room. Hard to say why French may not have seen it, but I suspect that he was called to the scene something like 6/7 hours after her death, so it may not have been very wet. There was carpet it could have seeped into and just looked like a normal dirty basement carpet.
This picture was taken before her body was discovered, so likely not long after the cops got there. The carpet appears to be gray. Also, this is not a large amount of urine. Its suggested that she must have recently voided her bladder (ante-mortem) because there was so little urine.I noticed in the lifetime movie teaser they make the urine in her bed very obvious...I know that some investigators have said her sheets "reeked of urine" but I don't know if there were tests done or anything. As poor a housekeeper as PR was I don't think she would leave wet sheets on the bed...LHP said that was the only housework she did, cleaning JB's sheets.
Heymom
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I believe there were other stairs in the house. The spiral stairs were on one end of the house and the main stairs were elsewhere. The stairs to the basement were also not spiral stairs. Just trying to clear up any misunderstanding that the spiral stairs were the only way to get downstairs.
Heymom
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If a child has been a bed-wetter, the mattress is going to reek after a while. Unless the bed was covered in plastic, the odor just gets into the mattress and can't be gotten rid of. So it is entirely possible that what LE smelled was the mattress and not that the sheets had been wet that night.
Duchess518
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I just finished reading "The Death of Innocence" by JR and PR. I was curious to see their story and words. I believe alot of the time people who are hiding something or lying will reveal themselves in their speech.
A few quotes stuck out to me.
TDOI page 366
Quote by JR
"Many people have speculated that the killer was familiar with the house. Our home had been open to the public a number of times for various charity events and parties.Around two thousand visitors had streamed through our house during the Christmas 1994 Historic Boulder Homes Tour. It would not have been difficult for the future killer to roam through our place as part of one of those groups, even sneaking downstairs for a look at the basement area or upstairs to find JonBenet's room. Our house had been vacant much of the previous summer when we were in Michigan; a trespasser could have entered the house and literally stayed for days, and we wouldn't have known it. And the killer had four hours when we were gone during the late afternoon and evening of the 25th to get a layout of the house if he hasn't done so before then. Or perhaps after we fell asleep he familiarized himself with the house with the aid of a flashlight. A black mag-light type of flashlight was found on the kitchen counter."
If the murder weapon was the flashlight (and if the Ramsey's knew this), why draw attention to it? To me thats like screaming "HEY HERE IT IS!"
TDOI page 368
Quote by JR
"The coroner's report concluded that JonBenet died from asphyxia due to strangulation. Why the massive blow to the head then? The police theory has been, as far as I know, that either Patsy or I woke up in the mimddle of the night, struck JonBenet in a violent rage, and then staged everything else to look like a kidnapping. I've often told friends that if I were trying to stage this, as the police contend, I could have done a much more convincing job."
OH MY GOD. What the hell John?!
Also in this book it states that the butler pantry door was found open and the Ramsey's didn't know about this until after the fact. Does anyone have more info on this?
A few quotes stuck out to me.
TDOI page 366
Quote by JR
"Many people have speculated that the killer was familiar with the house. Our home had been open to the public a number of times for various charity events and parties.Around two thousand visitors had streamed through our house during the Christmas 1994 Historic Boulder Homes Tour. It would not have been difficult for the future killer to roam through our place as part of one of those groups, even sneaking downstairs for a look at the basement area or upstairs to find JonBenet's room. Our house had been vacant much of the previous summer when we were in Michigan; a trespasser could have entered the house and literally stayed for days, and we wouldn't have known it. And the killer had four hours when we were gone during the late afternoon and evening of the 25th to get a layout of the house if he hasn't done so before then. Or perhaps after we fell asleep he familiarized himself with the house with the aid of a flashlight. A black mag-light type of flashlight was found on the kitchen counter."
If the murder weapon was the flashlight (and if the Ramsey's knew this), why draw attention to it? To me thats like screaming "HEY HERE IT IS!"
TDOI page 368
Quote by JR
"The coroner's report concluded that JonBenet died from asphyxia due to strangulation. Why the massive blow to the head then? The police theory has been, as far as I know, that either Patsy or I woke up in the mimddle of the night, struck JonBenet in a violent rage, and then staged everything else to look like a kidnapping. I've often told friends that if I were trying to stage this, as the police contend, I could have done a much more convincing job."
OH MY GOD. What the hell John?!
Also in this book it states that the butler pantry door was found open and the Ramsey's didn't know about this until after the fact. Does anyone have more info on this?
kanzz
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Oh my! And about that butler pantry door - just more Smit/Ramsey spin. All the doors were closed and locked per JR that night/morning.
http://solvingjonbenet.blogspot.com/2012/07/the-lou-smit-show.html
Duchess518, I've been saying it for years: they're taunting the authorities. These two passages, Patsy's "let's have a trial and get it over with," etc., are very public middle-finger salutes to the police.
singularity
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Indeed.
Patsy oozed confidence.
She was serious about wanting a trial. She would've had the jury eating out of the palm of her hand even if she didn't testify. Her attorney would've also tried stacking the jury with men. A woman like Patsy can get you dancing in three shakes of a lamb's tail. She knew that and would have taken full advantage of it.
That's exactly what Dr. Pitt said. And all you'd need is one to tank it.