DC - Former President Donald Trump indicted, 4 federal counts in 2020 election interference, 1 Aug 2023, Trial 4 Mar 2024

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The indictment is only one side of the story. The prosecution will only present evidence that supports their case when this goes to trial.

I'm looking at the whole picture which includes possible defense strategies and weakness's in the prosecutions case. JMO.
Yes, an indictment is one side of the story but it's official documentation and, imo, important to read. Many of the questions posed on the thread are actually addressed in the indictment. Knowing the document also thwarts misinformation about what the charges are. But, of course, not everyone will want to read it themselves, I get that.

jmo
 
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Pat Cipolloni:

Pat A. Cipollone, the White House counsel, also tried to get Mr. Trump to stop pursuing baseless claims of fraud. He pushed back against a plan from a rogue Justice Department lawyer, Jeffrey Clark, who wanted to distribute official letters to multiple state legislatures falsely alerting them that the election may have been stolen and urging them to reconsider certified election results.

 
Yes, an indictment is one side of the story but it's an official documentation and, imo, important to read it. Many of the questions posed on the thread are actually addressed in the indictment. Knowing the document also thwarts misinformation about what the charges are. But, of course, not everyone will want to read it themselves, I get that.

jmo
I hope I haven't posted any misinformation. If I have I apologize.
 
Jenna Ellis, a lawyer not named as a co-conspirator.

Jenna Ellis, a lawyer who represented former President Trump, admitted in court that she made various misrepresentations on social media and major television appearances about the 2020 presidential election, leading a judge to issue a public censure on Wednesday.

Ellis, who was part of the former president’s efforts to challenge the legitimacy of his election loss, admitted to 10 misrepresentations about the election results, including statements made on Twitter and television programs on Fox News, Fox Business, MSNBC and Newsmax.

Sidney Powell, who is said to be co-conspirator, has also admitted to lies. In fact, she said her lies about the election being fraudulent "were so absurd they couldn’t be taken seriously."

Yeah, I don't think a Trump defense of "my lawyers told me the election was rigged" is gonna fly. :) imo


edited to correct "named as co-conspirator" as she is not actually named in the indictments. She is said to be one of the co-conspirators.
 
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“I was somewhat demoralized because I thought, ‘Boy, if he really believes this stuff, he has lost contact with ... he’s become detached from reality,’” Barr said. “On the other hand, you know, when I went into this and would tell him how crazy some of these allegations were, there was never an indication of interest in what the actual facts are. My opinion then and my opinion now is that the election was not stolen by fraud. And I haven’t seen anything since the election that changes my mind on that.”


“I told him that the stuff that his people were shoveling out to the public was , I mean, that the claims of fraud were . And, you know, he was indignant about that,” Barr said.
 
Look who was in the room. More lawyers who spoke truth to power:

On Jan. 3, Clark told Rosen the "timeline had been moved up" and that Trump had offered him the top job and he was accepting it. Following that meeting, Rosen called then-White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows to set up a meeting that night with the president. Included in the meeting were White House Counsel Pat Cipollone and Steven Engel, assistant attorney general for the Office of Legal Counsel....

Donoghue eventually joined the meeting and recalled Trump asking, "What do I have to lose?" in replacing Rosen with Clark.

"It was actually a good opening because I said, 'Mr. President, you have a great deal to lose,'" he testified. "I began to explain to him what he had to lose and what the country had to lose and what the department had to lose, and this was not in anyone's best interest. That conversation went on for some time. Everyone essentially chimed in with their own thoughts, all of which were consistent about how damaging this would be to the country."

I really didn't follow the case that closely last year and had no idea that Jan. 3 meeting with those attorneys took place. Since they refused to go along with that plan, it sounds like Trump and his crackpot advisors decided they needed to concoct another scheme which involved the fraudulent electors at the state level and the insurrection on January 6th. I'm still shocked at the magnitude of this fraud!

JMO
 
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I'm not saying there is evidence of election fraud,just that the defense may ask the court for time to look into it.

That could delay Jack Smith's desire to rush into a "speedy trial".

JMO.


Numerous officials in Trump's administration told him there was no election fraud. Trump lost every lawsuit he filed that suggested there was election fraud.

Rusty Bowers (AZ election official) testified to the Jan 6 committee that he asked Giuliani multiple times for evidence of election fraud, and Giuliani said they had theories but no evidence.

No judge is going to grant the defense time to look into evidence of election fraud when there is already an overwhelming lack of evidence that there was.

IMO of course. I'm not a judge.
 
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RE: Attorney Eastman and knowing that there was not fraud:

A federal judge on Wednesday ordered lawyer John Eastman, a key figure in former President Donald Trump's challenges to the 2020 election results, to turn over 33 new documents to the House Jan. 6 committee, including a number that the judge found are exempt from attorney-client privilege because they relate to a crime or an attempted crime.

In his order, U.S. District Judge David Carter of Central California found Eastman should hand over eight documents under the "crime-fraud exception" to attorney-client and attorney work privileges.

According to the judge, Eastman said in one of the email exchanges that Trump was aware that the number of voter fraud cases his team was alleging in a federal lawsuit challenging the election results in Georgia was "inaccurate." But, the judge said, Trump signed off on the suit, "swearing under oath" that the numbers were correct, anyway.

Example: Eastman said in an email the next day that "although the President signed a verification for [the state court filing] back on Dec. 1, he has since been made aware that some of the allegations (and evidence proffered by the experts) has been inaccurate.”

“For him to sign a new verification (on 12/30) with that knowledge (and incorporation by reference) would not be accurate,” Eastman wrote.

 
Mr. Trump’s lawyers are likely to argue that “he honestly thought that the election had been mishandled and he wanted to correct it,” says Gabriel Chin, a law professor at the University of California, Davis. That means jurors will have to weigh Mr. Trump’s state of mind. “There are lots of situations where, depending on the mental state and the facts, somebody is either doing their job – or committing a crime.”

 

Mike Pence

William Barr - Attorney General
When Trump claimed there had been a “suspicious vote dump” in Detroit, Barr told him the allegation was false, according to the indictment. He also sought to dispel Trump’s claims that voting machines in contested states had switched votes from Trump to Biden.

Jeffrey Rosen, Acting Attorney General and Richard Donoghue, Acting Deputy Attorney General
On multiple occasions, Trump allegedly summoned Rosen and Donoghue to talk about a video that he and allies said showed election workers at State Farm Arena in Atlanta counting “suitcases” of illegal ballots. Per the indictment they told him that the activity in the footage was “benign,” saying later that investigators had reviewed the tape and had “not identified suspicious conduct.”
In at least two conversations, prosecutors allege that Trump told Rosen and Donoghue that he believed there had been 205,000 more votes than voters in Pennsylvania. “Each time, the Justice Department officials informed the defendant that his claim was false,” the indictment says.
Trump made similar claims per the indictment about Wisconsin that Rosen shot down. Rosen and Donoghue were also among the officials who allegedly told Trump that numerous audits had confirmed that voting machine tallies were accurate.

John Rateliffe - Director of National Intelligence
Ratcliffe, an adviser handpicked by Trump to brief him on national security matters, “disabused” Trump of the notion that “the Intelligence Community’s findings regarding foreign interference would change the outcome of the election,” the indictment says.

Chris Krebs - Cybersecurity and Infrastructure
Security Agency Director
Krebs, a Republican chosen by Trump to lead the newly-formed agency, joined a multi-agency statement that said the 2020 election the “most secure in American history” and said claims of computer-based election fraud were unsubstantiated.

Pat Cipollone - White House Counsel
On the evening of Jan. 6, 2021, after law enforcement quelled the violence at the Capitol, Cipollone called on Trump to “withdraw any objections and allow the certification” of Biden’s victory, according to the indictment. Trump refused.

Mike Shirkey - Michigan Senate Majority Leader
Lee Chatfield - Michigan House Speaker

Per the indictment Shirkey and Chatfield met with Trump in the Oval Office on Nov. 20, 2020, and heard Trump’s false claims about illegitimate voting in Detroit. They said afterward in a joint statement that they had “not yet been made aware of any information that would change the outcome” in the state.
Yet over the following three weeks, Trump and his allies continued to pressure them to reverse the state’s results.
“We have not received evidence of fraud on a scale that would change the outcome in Michigan,” Shirkey said in a Dec. 14 statement. Chatfield echoed him, saying: “I can’t fathom risking our norms, traditions and institutions to pass a resolution retroactively changing the electors for Trump, simply because some think there may have been enough widespread fraud to give him the win.”


Rusty Bowers - Arizona House Speaker
Per the indictment Trump and his alleged co-conspirators claimed in a conversations with Bowers that thousands of noncitizens, nonresidents and dead people had voted in Arizona.
Bowers told them investigations had uncovered no evidence of significant fraud in the state. He said in a Dec. 4, 2020, statement that it would violate his oath of office, “the basic principles of republican government, and the rule of law if we attempted to nullify the people’s vote based on unsupported theories of fraud.”


Brad Raffensperger - Georgia Secretary of State
Trump urged Raffensperger to “find” enough votes to reverse his defeat in the state in an hour-long phone call on Jan. 2, 2021. Raffensperger debunked a number of his false claims, including allegations that thousands of dead people had voted.
“Well, Mr. President,” he said, “the challenge that you have is the data you have is wrong.”
 
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Mike Pence

William Barr
When Trump claimed there had been a “suspicious vote dump” in Detroit, Barr told him the allegation was false, according to the indictment. He also sought to dispel Trump’s claims that voting machines in contested states had switched votes from Trump to Biden.

Jeffrey Rosen and Richard Donoghue
On multiple occasions, Trump allegedly summoned Rosen and Donoghue to talk about a video that he and allies said showed election workers at State Farm Arena in Atlanta counting “suitcases” of illegal ballots. Per the indictment they told him that the activity in the footage was “benign,” saying later that investigators had reviewed the tape and had “not identified suspicious conduct.”
In at least two conversations, prosecutors allege that Trump told Rosen and Donoghue that he believed there had been 205,000 more votes than voters in Pennsylvania. “Each time, the Justice Department officials informed the defendant that his claim was false,” the indictment says.
Trump made similar claims per the indictment about Wisconsin that Rosen shot down. Rosen and Donoghue were also among the officials who allegedly told Trump that numerous audits had confirmed that voting machine tallies were accurate.

John Rateliffe
Ratcliffe, an adviser handpicked by Trump to brief him on national security matters, “disabused” Trump of the notion that “the Intelligence Community’s findings regarding foreign interference would change the outcome of the election,” the indictment says.

Chris Krebs
Krebs, a Republican chosen by Trump to lead the newly-formed agency, joined a multi-agency statement that said the 2020 election the “most secure in American history” and said claims of computer-based election fraud were unsubstantiated.

Pat Cipollone
On the evening of Jan. 6, 2021, after law enforcement quelled the violence at the Capitol, Cipollone called on Trump to “withdraw any objections and allow the certification” of Biden’s victory, according to the indictment. Trump refused.

Mike Shirkey - Michigan Senate Majority Leader
Lee Chatfield - Michigan House Speaker

Per the indictment Shirkey and Chatfield met with Trump in the Oval Office on Nov. 20, 2020, and heard Trump’s false claims about illegitimate voting in Detroit. They said afterward in a joint statement that they had “not yet been made aware of any information that would change the outcome” in the state.
Yet over the following three weeks, Trump and his allies continued to pressure them to reverse the state’s results.
“We have not received evidence of fraud on a scale that would change the outcome in Michigan,” Shirkey said in a Dec. 14 statement. Chatfield echoed him, saying: “I can’t fathom risking our norms, traditions and institutions to pass a resolution retroactively changing the electors for Trump, simply because some think there may have been enough widespread fraud to give him the win.”


Rusty Bowers - Arizona House Speaker
Per the indictment Trump and his alleged co-conspirators claimed in a conversations with Bowers that thousands of noncitizens, nonresidents and dead people had voted in Arizona.
Bowers told them investigations had uncovered no evidence of significant fraud in the state. He said in a Dec. 4, 2020, statement that it would violate his oath of office, “the basic principles of republican government, and the rule of law if we attempted to nullify the people’s vote based on unsupported theories of fraud.”


Brad Raffensperger - Georgia Secretary of State
Trump urged Raffensperger to “find” enough votes to reverse his defeat in the state in an hour-long phone call on Jan. 2, 2021. Raffensperger debunked a number of his false claims, including allegations that thousands of dead people had voted.
“Well, Mr. President,” he said, “the challenge that you have is the data you have is wrong.”
That's a weighty group of people telling the truth to the former president. And they were not the only ones who told him the truth, as we've discussed already. Wonder why in the world he would discount the truth told to him again and again from reliable source after reliable source in favor of lies to overturn the election.

It is literally unbelievable, imo, that anyone would believe he didn't know the truth but chose, instead to lie and scheme in order to stay in office illegally. I can't imagine a jury will buy a defense of "I didn't know the truth even though reputable people kept telling it to me."

jmo
 
So it's possible that Trump believed his lawyers when they told him things about election fraud.

Seems like a possible defense to me. JMO.
Reading the indictment, it seems pretty clear that what he believed is that the crackpots were providing a path toward stealing the election in such a way that it could be believable. He knew he lost. They knew he lost. We knew he lost. But he just kept pushing and turning up the heat. He knew what they - and he - were doing.
 
Reading the indictment, it seems pretty clear that what he believed is that the crackpots were providing a path toward stealing the election in such a way that it could be believable. He knew he lost. They knew he lost. We knew he lost. But he just kept pushing and turning up the heat. He knew what they - and he - were doing.
Very well summarized.

jmo
 
Do you have a link to these incriminating writings?
Trump privately admitted he lost 2020 election, top aides testify

‘He knows he lost’: Cassidy Hutchinson testified that Trump acknowledged he lost 2020 election

Trump Knew He Lost the Election, Aides Testify

Fox News' Sean Hannity says he knew all along Trump lost the election (example of a close friend who knew)

Jarring new video, evidence Trump knew he lost: Key takeaways from the latest Jan. 6 hearing

The Jan. 6 case against Trump: He knew he was lying

Jan. 6 panel presents proof: Despite the lies, Trump knew he lost

Unfortunately, we live in a political and social climate where people have been led to believe that certain news is "fake" if it's not reported by certain sources. So, if those certain news sources aren't reporting on the hearings where people testified and provided evidence that Trump knew, then they just wont consider it fact at all. It just... never happened.

Plausible deniability is a hot commodity these days. If 99 people tell you something you don't want to hear but you finally find that one person that tells you otherwise... well, I guess you're all set!
 
Reading the indictment, it seems pretty clear that what he believed is that the crackpots were providing a path toward stealing the election in such a way that it could be believable. He knew he lost. They knew he lost. We knew he lost. But he just kept pushing and turning up the heat. He knew what they - and he - were doing.
So it's possible that Trump was given advice from his lawyers and he didn't know that he was doing anything illegal. So no intent. JMO.
 
Sidney Powell, who is said to be co-conspirator, has also admitted to lies. In fact, she said her lies about the election being fraudulent "were so absurd they couldn’t be taken seriously."

Yeah, I don't think a Trump defense of "my lawyers told me the election was rigged" is gonna fly. :) imo


edited to correct "named as co-conspirator" as she is not actually named in the indictments. She is said to be one of the co-conspirators.

That always reminded me of the Narcissists Prayer:

That didn't happen.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, that's not a big deal.
And if it is, that's not my fault.
And if it was, I didn't mean it.
And if I did, you deserved it.
 
That's a weighty group of people telling the truth to the former president. And they were not the only ones who told him the truth, as we've discussed already. Wonder why in the world he would discount the truth told to him again and again from reliable source after reliable source in favor of lies to overturn the election.

It is literally unbelievable, imo, that anyone would believe he didn't know the truth but chose, instead to lie and scheme in order to stay in office illegally. I can't imagine a jury will buy a defense of "I didn't know the truth even though reputable people kept telling it to me."

jmo
BBM. Trump has no real defense to the charges. Claiming the 1st Amendment "protects" him is the lamest excuse I've seen.

JMO
 
Okay, let's stipulate for a moment that despite being told otherwise by top people in his own administration, Trump still believed there was election fraud and he actually won the election.

That doesn't mean he's excused for illegal actions he took afterwards.

If I attempt to rob a bank because some lawyer assured me that the bank had cheated me out of my savings, I don't get a pass for trying to rob the bank.

Also I may be mistaken but I don't think following bad advice from lawyers is even a defense if there's not a previously established attorney-client relationship.

That might apply with Giuliani. The others, not so much IMO.
 
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