DCF Worker States: Casey referred to Caylee as "that child"

[MAMABEAR]

ummm, i don't want to seem rude, but are you kidding?
i remember vividly that when my eldest son was less than a year old he had a terrible cold. i was holding him in my arms, rocking him, waving a tissue w/ a little karvol on it to help clear his congestion and i can still hear myself say,' mummy's poor itsy bitsy snufflufugus' (oddly that translates to 'little snothead'). ok it was 'twee', but it certainly was NOT abusive - it was love. i'm sure i've used other little names - last night i heard a yelp from the garden, recognised it as my daughter's voice and ran out calling, 'mummy's coming darling heart.' i really don't see how i was being disrespective to her. my husband calls me sweetheart, i don't have a problem w/ that either.
now that i come to think of it, i still occasionally call my youngest 'lambkins' ... maybe you should take me out back and beat the $&!^ outta me. lol.

Awwwwwww! How sweet. If my Daddy said my first name he was wanting me to answer for some reason or other but when he used my first and second name---I was in big azz trouble. My rents didn't use cutesy names. I had to fight for the closeness I craved. Kissed my Daddy on the lips (I had 3 kids at the time), he said, "Aren't you gittin alittle old to kiss me on the lips. Grabbed his face with both hands and kissed him again---then said, "Nope, you are still my Daddy and I'm still your kid, so deal wid it". He LOL. He had 13 kids and I was # 7.

eddeva, lil kid, we are all different and we all have to be comfortable in our life. YOU are not a bad mum. You go gurl. I feel very close to my babies. My grown son comes and sits in my lap and has to hold himself up cus I am old but I still like to hold my babies---all ovem. Don't you change a thang. If I quit callin my babies cutesy names they would think they did something wrong or that I had lost my mind. I ain't changin the way I am. Didn't kill any of my babies nor they theirs.

KC had no feelings as she was saying "that child" and that is the difference. Like many have said here---when speaking to CPS (or whoever) and your child is "missin" you don't say--> "that child". It isn't natural to say "that child" at that time.

 

[Luckybuck]

HI! Ok--I think I understand what you are saying. Is there a name for this? I don't think it could be called denial. Isn't that going beyond denial? I can see how KC developed the way she is by what you are sayin. I think.

Mama Bear, you are right. Their behavior incorporates much more than denial. It's called INSANITY. It comes from years of addiction and co-dependency. This family needed an intervention and 12 step years ago.
Back to topic. I too call my kids (all 5 which include 2 adopted) pet names, the wrong names and even call them "Fred" or "George" if I get flustered and can't get their names out fast enough. They think this is funny because my mother has the same brain fa_t_.
George and Casey both exhibit a detached way of referring to Caylee. Just listen to both of their interviews and jail visits. The DCF workers are trained to identify behaviors and attitudes that would suggest a possible attachment problem.

missing child + detached attitude = suspicious

 

[cecybeans]

Perhaps we can come to a consensus on distal demonstrative pronouns here.

I, like others here, grew up in a family of southerners who used it with affection "that little girl, needs some ice cream, Lee", my grandfather would often say. "That baby looks cold, she needs her sweater". Perhaps it was simply colloquial, perhaps it signified a lack of higher education, but no one for a moment thought it signified a lack of affection or feeling close to the subject.

I'm sure the social worker noticed the use of the demonstrative pronoun when KC said it because it was accompanied by a complete sense of detachment. I'm also quite sure if I had heard KC use the name Caylee, I would have felt a similar disconnect, as if she were talking about car keys or a cellphone.

While this word served as a trigger for the social worker to pick up on this, I believe it would have happened in KC's speech regardless and I don't think it's productive to read much into others who idiomatically use either proximal or distal demonstratives in everyday speech.

 

[LinasK]

Perhaps we can come to a consensus on distal demonstrative pronouns here.

I, like others here, grew up in a family of southerners who used it with affection "that little girl, needs some ice cream, Lee", my grandfather would often say. "That baby looks cold, she needs her sweater". Perhaps it was simply colloquial, perhaps it signified a lack of higher education, but no one for a moment thought it signified a lack of affection or feeling close to the subject.

I'm sure the social worker noticed the use of the demonstrative pronoun when KC said it because it was accompanied by a complete sense of detachment. I'm also quite sure if I had heard KC use the name Caylee, I would have felt a similar disconnect, as if she were talking about car keys or a cellphone.

While this word served as a trigger for the social worker to pick up on this, I believe it would have happened in KC's speech regardless and I don't think it's productive to read much into others who idiomatically use either proximal or distal demonstratives in everyday speech.

Sorry, I still don't get why one would use the pronoun "that" to refer to a child (especially their own) in their presence unless the child was a stranger, e.g. in a park-"that girl over there". To me it's extremely distancing and disrespectful, even if it's used endearingly. Even tone of voice makes a huge difference when you're calling a child "snothead", and Casey didn't say it directly to Caylee- so I don't think it was a term of endearment. She said it about her to someone else- that's disgusting, IMO!

 

[cecybeans]

Sorry, I still don't get why one would use the pronoun "that" to refer to a child (especially their own) in their presence unless the child was a stranger, e.g. in a park-"that girl over there". To me it's extremely distancing and disrespectful, even if it's used endearingly. Even tone of voice makes a huge difference when you're calling a child "snothead", and Casey didn't say it directly to Caylee- so I don't think it was a term of endearment. She said it about her to someone else- that's disgusting, IMO!

Well you are certainly entitled to your opinion. If you feel it is disrespectful then you don't need to use demonstrative pronouns ever.

I was just pointing out that it might not be fair judge others for that, since it seems to be a personal preference, or to make a sweeping generalization on what it might mean given the wide variety of idiom in the English language.

I also have heard people use perfect English when speaking and felt a cold, disconnect in tone regardless.

I think Mamabear summed it up nicely when she said that it only seems truly inappropriate when used to describe a missing child.

 

[MAMABEAR]

Well, I have decided that I am from Mars. I am a bad mother and don't need to breath the air on this earth anymore. I can't believe that I have done it all wrong. To late now--I am to old. At least my babies won't have to put up wid my dysfunction too much longer. I see now that I have just been stumbling thru this world with no values or respect for mine. I am so sorry that I have shocked peeps here wid my strange ideas.ther_beatingA_Dead

 

[ecs5298]

ummm, i don't want to seem rude, but are you kidding?
i remember vividly that when my eldest son was less than a year old he had a terrible cold. i was holding him in my arms, rocking him, waving a tissue w/ a little karvol on it to help clear his congestion and i can still hear myself say,' mummy's poor itsy bitsy snufflufugus' (oddly that translates to 'little snothead'). ok it was 'twee', but it certainly was NOT abusive - it was love. i'm sure i've used other little names - last night i heard a yelp from the garden, recognised it as my daughter's voice and ran out calling, 'mummy's coming darling heart.' i really don't see how i was being disrespective to her. my husband calls me sweetheart, i don't have a problem w/ that either.
now that i come to think of it, i still occasionally call my youngest 'lambkins' ... maybe you should take me out back and beat the $&!^ outta me. lol.

Yes I was! I should have enclosed the quote in <sarcasm> </sarcasm> tags. So I just deleted the post instead. In our house, we have tons of made up names for every man, woman, child and animal. They are said with affection.

While I do believe that KC is a cold, callused murderer, I cannot condemn her for a choice of words we did not hear but that has only been relayed and transcribed. Sorry for the confusion. I always forget that everybody doesn't know that I'm a sarcastic SOB!

 

[ScorpRising]

Yes I was! I should have enclosed the quote in <sarcasm> </sarcasm> tags. So I just deleted the post instead. In our house, we have tons of made up names for every man, woman, child and animal. They are said with affection.

Thanks for the clarification! It was most likely the inability to hear your voice dripping with sarcasm that made me mistake your words for honest opinion.

I also now know why some people get a little upset at my txt msgs... I'll have to start adding *drips with sarcasm* notes to my texts...

I realized last night while listening to my bf read the boy a bedtime story that the tone and inflection of voice make all the difference. Dr. Mugwart, who is usually a nice doctor, turned into a nasty *advertiser censored* with the voice he used.

 

[Luckybuck]

Perhaps we can come to a consensus on distal demonstrative pronouns here.

I, like others here, grew up in a family of southerners who used it with affection "that little girl, needs some ice cream, Lee", my grandfather would often say. "That baby looks cold, she needs her sweater". Perhaps it was simply colloquial, perhaps it signified a lack of higher education, but no one for a moment thought it signified a lack of affection or feeling close to the subject.

I'm sure the social worker noticed the use of the demonstrative pronoun when KC said it because it was accompanied by a complete sense of detachment. I'm also quite sure if I had heard KC use the name Caylee, I would have felt a similar disconnect, as if she were talking about car keys or a cell phone.

While this word served as a trigger for the social worker to pick up on this, I believe it would have happened in KC's speech regardless and I don't think it's productive to read much into others who idiomatically use either proximal or distal demonstratives in everyday speech.

I don't know much about cultural norms/demographics related to speech but that is interesting. My grandfather from Kentucky would commonly refer to my son as "the boy". I think his generation may have spoken this way and I wasn't used to it since I didn't grow up around him. He might say "Don't forget to get the boy some supper" or "The boy's got a good appetite".

The circumstances and affect made all the difference to DCF.

 

[LinasK]

I don't know much about cultural norms/demographics related to speech but that is interesting. My grandfather from Kentucky would commonly refer to my son as "the boy". I think his generation may have spoken this way and I wasn't used to it since I didn't grow up around him. He might say "Don't forget to get the boy some supper" or "The boy's got a good appetite".

The circumstances and affect made all the difference to DCF.

"The boy" vs. "that child/boy/girl". The pronoun 'the' implies a specificity and therefore feels slightly warmer and more intimate than 'that one over there'. That's my child.

 

[countzero]

Ya'll know something. This DCF worker is an officer of the court. If this is how he interpreted KC words and wrote in his report, then by george I am gonna believe him. As someone else here has stated, these DCF workers are educated and trained to pick-up on these types nuances during investigations. This DCF worker was investigating, not planing to party out with KC as to the whereabouts of Caylee. I for one am not gonna question what or how he heard it.

Bottom line and I will say it again is when your child is missing and you want LE and the public to help find them, you state their name and give a description as best you can.

 

[carrie]

Perhaps we can come to a consensus on distal demonstrative pronouns here.

I, like others here, grew up in a family of southerners who used it with affection "that little girl, needs some ice cream, Lee", my grandfather would often say. "That baby looks cold, she needs her sweater". Perhaps it was simply colloquial, perhaps it signified a lack of higher education, but no one for a moment thought it signified a lack of affection or feeling close to the subject.

I'm sure the social worker noticed the use of the demonstrative pronoun when KC said it because it was accompanied by a complete sense of detachment. I'm also quite sure if I had heard KC use the name Caylee, I would have felt a similar disconnect, as if she were talking about car keys or a cellphone.

While this word served as a trigger for the social worker to pick up on this, I believe it would have happened in KC's speech regardless and I don't think it's productive to read much into others who idiomatically use either proximal or distal demonstratives in everyday speech.

you're right. I don't know how KC may have meant it, but it is a southern thing. I'm from the south and our family has always done that. Of course, there are many other terms of endearment they use that are not pronouns.

My mom would say things like, "You better wrap that baby up good before you take her out or she'll catch cold." or "that baby acts like she doesn't feel good, take her temperature" or "that baby needs a nap, she's tired" Even when there was only one baby, "that" or "the" is/was used.

We use it for teenagers too, "Fix that boy a plate of food, he's got to be starving."

Somehow, for both "that" and "the" it serves to underscore the child uniqueness rather than what it may sound like to people from other cultures/areas of the country. When I heard GA say "that little girl," I took it as a sign of how important she was to him. Maybe that's not how he meant it, but where I come from it's the norm.

I always called my kids "the baby" and now do it with my granchild. Which is used more to mean she is the most important baby. IOW not just any baby, but "THE" baby. He/she is everything to us. Hence, "the baby."

Of course there are many other ways we talk about our children and use pet names. We don't always say "that" or "the." : my love, my angel, my chicken, my doll, my little man, my little stinker, my girl, my boy, etc. etc.

 

[LinasK]

you're right. I don't know how KC may have meant it, but it is a southern thing. I'm from the south and our family has always done that. Of course, there are many other terms of endearment they use that are not pronouns.

My mom would say things like, "You better wrap that baby up good before you take her out or she'll catch cold." or "that baby acts like she doesn't feel good, take her temperature" or "that baby needs a nap, she's tired" Even when there was only one baby, "that" or "the" is/was used.

We use it for teenagers too, "Fix that boy a plate of food, he's got to be starving."

Somehow, for both "that" and "the" it serves to underscore the child uniqueness rather than what it may sound like to people from other cultures/areas of the country. When I heard GA say "that little girl," I took it as a sign of how important she was to him. Maybe that's not how he meant it, but where I come from it's the norm.

I always called my kids "the baby" and now do it with my granchild. Which is used more to mean she is the most important baby. IOW not just any baby, but "THE" baby. He/she is everything to us. Hence, "the baby."

Of course there are many other ways we talk about our children and use pet names. We don't always say "that" or "the." : my love, my angel, my chicken, my doll, my little man, my little stinker, my girl, my boy, etc. etc.

Okay, stupid question (I'm a Native Californian), but is Florida really considered part of "The South", the way Georgia, Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi (no offense to any states I forgot) and the Carolina's, maybe even Texas are???

 

[Duckley]

Its not the words - it is the whole context. What is the affect associated with the words? What is the tone of voice? What are the facial expressions? How often are the negative "terms of endearment" used?

I do find the language used by the family members to talk about Caylee a bit odd at times. But from Casey- very odd. Match the language with the affect - or lack thereof - and I do see detachment. There is much that can be learned regarding attachment from watching parents play with their children. Mary Ainsworth and Bruce Perry have done lots of work in this area.

I often wonder if Casey has an attachment disorder? And I often wonder about Caylee's emotional health living in a home where there appears to have been great emotional upheaval. Children can be damaged by emotional abuse - constant berating, inconsistent caring, living in a home where there is lots of conflict, anxiety and stress..

If interested - there is some basic info below.

http://www.helpguide.org/mental/parenting_bonding_reactive_attachment_disorder.htm

http://www.therapistlocator.net/families/Consumer_Updates/ChildrenAttachment.asp

 

[static]

You are correct!!! See page 7 - "She stated she has enjoyed working with all the agencies and volunteers looking for her child and that is going to be her new vocation in life."

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/media/acrobat/2008-11/43228283.PDF

(link courtesy of Searchfortruth - Thanks!!)

How can one "enjoy" anything while their own child is missing. ?

 

[Sdavidson11]

Okay, stupid question (I'm a Native Californian), but is Florida really considered part of "The South", the way Georgia, Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi (no offense to any states I forgot) and the Carolina's, maybe even Texas are???

You are right to ask and we are "The South" but we have so many people who move in and out of our state that we are exposed to so many different dialects that most of us don't have that southern twang that you are thinking about. I am only a second generation Floridian and my son has a bit of a southern twang in his voice my daughter doesn't. We use southern manners such as ma'am and sir but I think talking to me you couldn't tell that I am from the south. Just to give an example of the different states we are exposed to I only know of one other native Floridian who lives in my subdivision. On our street the states of New York, Ohio, Virginia, California, New Hampshire, Washington, Georgia, and Michigan are represented. The A's are from Ohio so I can't help with any info on the way they use pronouns.

 

[Peculiar Petunia]

Bingo! to the southerners who have identified the "that child" usage. For some reason, with all affectionate respect, when I construct a sentence using "that child," I hear it with an Andy Griffith voice.
(hope this didn't come out wrong)

 

[jjgram]

I take umbrage only because KC repeated this more than once, enough to catch DCF's attention-but then KC refers to TL as "this kid" and when PB visits her in jail, upon his exit you can hear KC tell the guards "now I know who that kid is, " so maybe she uses those terms a lot.

My mother is from Boston, my father and I from Memphis originally (have always lived in the south), and I would say that although it is not completely cut and dry down the line, the dixies might be more likely to use "child", whereas yankees might use "kid"? Make any sense? I've got "child please!" and "hey kid!" in my head all ready to go with southern and northern accents respectively!
That written, it all depends. KC still seems to have an Ohio affect, maybe from her family, I also think while she technically is a southerner, she is not culturally a southerner.

:clap::clap::clap:
I agree....

but I will say... I think saying " where are the Kids... ? " is ok...

but I think calling your CHILD a KID is not the best...

sounds like a kid = BILLY GOAT>>>>

I like the word "CHILD" & " CHILDREN" sounds a little
more R E S P E C T F U L to me !!!
But
I'm a Southerner ! & Proud of it !!!:blowkiss:

JMO

God Bless !
jjgram

 

[jjgram]

How can one "enjoy" anything while their own child is missing. ?

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I agree.....
:waitasec:
How in the world can A N Y ONE.... * ENJOY * A N Y T H I N G ! ? ? ?


It would be mentally and physically I M P O S S I B L E ~ for me
to * E * N * J * O * Y ~ ANYTHING if my CHILD was Missing !???

and for sure if they were found M U R D E R E D ! ! ! !
:furious: :furious: :furious:

JMO
God Bless
jjgram

 

[Capri]

Its not the words - it is the whole context. What is the affect associated with the words? What is the tone of voice? What are the facial expressions? How often are the negative "terms of endearment" used?

I do find the language used by the family members to talk about Caylee a bit odd at times. But from Casey- very odd. Match the language with the affect - or lack thereof - and I do see detachment. There is much that can be learned regarding attachment from watching parents play with their children. Mary Ainsworth and Bruce Perry have done lots of work in this area.

I often wonder if Casey has an attachment disorder? And I often wonder about Caylee's emotional health living in a home where there appears to have been great emotional upheaval. Children can be damaged by emotional abuse - constant berating, inconsistent caring, living in a home where there is lots of conflict, anxiety and stress..

If interested - there is some basic info below.

http://www.helpguide.org/mental/parenting_bonding_reactive_attachment_disorder.htm

http://www.therapistlocator.net/families/Consumer_Updates/ChildrenAttachment.asp

I agree with you on it's not just the words, but voice intonation, facial expression & the total context. I find it a bit disturbing that KC didn't acknowledge her pregnancy until very late in the pregnancy, which could indicate a detachment issue. I also find it odd that she didn't gravitate to other young moms, as potential new friends, rather than party friends. It's such a natural progression after you have a child, to connect with other parents of kids, for playdates, and just to get together and unload a little stress about how challenging children can be.