Defense Taphonomy Expert

[Pensfan]

double post..sorry!

 

[ZsaZsa]

re my bolded text.
I wonder if this is what the taphonomist will testify about. Perhaps the expert opinion will be that Caylee's remains accelerated the growth of plants or roots making it seem that she was there longer than she was.

Graphic warning- How can they possible theorize that her corpse was an kind of human Miracle Gro to the plants around her , since there was so much evidence of animal activity that there is no way of knowing how long she stayed intact, is there? All of her soft tissues could have been stripped in a day with all the scavengers in that area..

 

[jon_burrows]

Thank you Aedrys and good job.
I don't think JB will have any luck in trying to refute the states evidence in the long run with taphonomy. IMO Caylee was cremated on purpose so that if technology were to come far enough to test her remains further there wouldn't be anything left of use. I also still feel that JB and co wont be able to jump the hurdles of the 31 days and goose chases KC lead LE on. And even everything that was found with Caylee as far as we know came from the Anthony home.

I completely agree. I hope they were able to save at least one bone in case future tests come along but I'm not sure if it's legal. I don't believe Casey gave a hoot what happened to her remains. I don't think she cares to this day. She jumped on the opportunity (or it was planned) to be able to cry foul later at her trial. I can see it now. If only Casey's parents didn't go against her wishes we could clear her. Poor Casey.

Casey never put out a presser for JB to beg for Zanny the Nanny to bring Caylee home. But he made a big deal about the cremation. They are so transparent.

IMO

 

[ZsaZsa]

I completely agree. I hope they were able to save at least one bone in case future tests come along but I'm not sure if it's legal. I don't believe Casey gave a hoot what happened to her remains. I don't think she cares to this day. She jumped on the opportunity (or it was planned) to be able to cry foul later at her trial. I can see it now. If only Casey's parents didn't go against her wishes we could clear her. Poor Casey.

Casey never put out a presser for JB to beg for Zanny the Nanny to bring Caylee home. But he made a big deal about the cremation. They are so transparent.

IMO

Don't Pathologists save all the samples they have examined? Hopefully there are a few jars of remains on a shelf somewhere... where is Joypath tonight?

 

[debbie0604]

My question is, how many experts are in this field? In other words, how would this field compare to a forensic anthropologist? I understand what their specialty is, but for JAC purposes, IMO, a forensic anthropologist should be able to do this job unless JB anticipates his forensic anthopologist cannot concur with the defense.

 

[debbie0604]

Don't Pathologists save all the samples they have examined? Hopefully there are a few jars of remains on a shelf somewhere... where is Joypath tonight?

They do save samples and remains especially for legal cases.

 

[Pensfan]

^Found this:
National standards require that "wet tissue" from autopsies be held for six months after issuing a final autopsy report, tissue in paraffin blocks (from which microscope slides are made) must be kept for five years, and the slides themselves along with the autopsy reports must be retained for twenty years.
http://www.deathreference.com/A-Bi/Autopsy.html

 

[debbie0604]

^Found this:
National standards require that "wet tissue" from autopsies be held for six months after issuing a final autopsy report, tissue in paraffin blocks (from which microscope slides are made) must be kept for five years, and the slides themselves along with the autopsy reports must be retained for twenty years.
http://www.deathreference.com/A-Bi/Autopsy.html

Paraffin blocks have tissue in the blocks and recuts or new slides can be made from these blocks.

 

[joypath]

Yes, I recall that as well. I also recall that the defense kept the remains in the morgue for a long time and people were beginning to ask why the defense would not release them over to the Anthony's and it was because they had to wait for Dr.Lee I think to come and do his autopsy as well as other. Something like that...it's been so long.

The ME's office followed protocol by releasing the remains to the next of kin, Casey Anthony who then turned over the legal authority/ "ownership" per se of the remains to G & C to arrange a funeral AFTER the defense team completed their work (This is when Baez claimed that HE was "in charge of Caylee"). It appears that Casey did NOT put any limitations on her parents once they accepted the responsibility (perhaps she never even THOUGHT to discuss anything with them!). Caylee was released shortly after the final identification was completed, she was released to the FAMILY chosen funeral home (exactly the same as ANY decedent) and remained there until Werner Spitz, M. D. arrived to perform his autopsy (hopefully he took his own samples to perform testing!!!! AKA standard operating procedure~). AND remained there until the family determined what they chose to do with them! (Remember, the release for cremation was approved late December! by the ME office~). Henry Lee, Ph. D. is a NOT a medical doctor, he does not perform autopsy procedures but he along with other members of the forensic scientific community may observe the forensic pathologists and often do attend!

 

[joypath]

They do save samples and remains especially for legal cases.

YEP! heck...saving is one of the "curses" of laboratory medicine! ALL sections!:dance:

 

[Aedrys]

Also keep in mind that this is only a POTENTIAL defense witness. If this witness gives the same testimony as the States witness JB and company won't use them. JB and company are going to have a hell of a time refuting the botany evidence which in my humble opinion is KEY. Plants and bugs don't lie. My guess is that those plants and bugs can very accurately give a time-frame of when Caylee was "dumped" in that horrid location.

That's exactly what I'm thinking. And if a forensic anthropologist and a forensic botanist can do much of the same thing, then what do they need the taphonomy expert for? Plus, unless they can recreate hurricane conditions, I don't think this expert is going to be worth much. We haven't even had a hurricane yet this year (I really really REALLY should not say that, knock on wood).

I can't see how this expert can be of any help, and it may not matter anyway if that hearing (can't remember the name of it) goes bad for the defense. Funny how Baez wants to call everything junk or novel science unless it benefits him in some way.

 

[debbie0604]

The ME's office followed protocol by releasing the remains to the next of kin, Casey Anthony who then turned over the legal authority/ "ownership" per se of the remains to G & C to arrange a funeral AFTER the defense team completed their work (This is when Baez claimed that HE was "in charge of Caylee"). It appears that Casey did NOT put any limitations on her parents once they accepted the responsibility (perhaps she never even THOUGHT to discuss anything with them!). Caylee was released shortly after the final identification was completed, she was released to the FAMILY chosen funeral home (exactly the same as ANY decedent) and remained there until Werner Spitz, M. D. arrived to perform his autopsy (hopefully he took his own samples to perform testing!!!! AKA standard operating procedure~). AND remained there until the family determined what they chose to do with them! (Remember, the release for cremation was approved late December! by the ME office~). Henry Lee, Ph. D. is a NOT a medical doctor, he does not perform autopsy procedures but he along with other members of the forensic scientific community may observe the forensic pathologists and often do attend!

BBM - EXACTLY. Thank you :dance:

 

[debbie0604]

That's exactly what I'm thinking. And if a forensic anthropologist and a forensic botanist can do much of the same thing, then what do they need the taphonomy expert for? Plus, unless they can recreate hurricane conditions, I don't think this expert is going to be worth much. We haven't even had a hurricane yet this year (I really really REALLY should not say that, knock on wood).

I can't see how this expert can be of any help, and it may not matter anyway if that hearing (can't remember the name of it) goes bad for the defense. Funny how Baez wants to call everything junk or novel science unless it benefits him in some way.

BBM - That's true, but it seemed to me he was trying to match experts with the state. That's just my opinion though.

 

[Marina2]

Graphic warning- How can they possible theorize that her corpse was an kind of human Miracle Gro to the plants around her , since there was so much evidence of animal activity that there is no way of knowing how long she stayed intact, is there? All of her soft tissues could have been stripped in a day with all the scavengers in that area..

Imo, they can't but that doesn't mean they won't try. The defense has to address the root growth around and through the bags. How else will they do it but to use this expert and her opinion on this:


Geotaphonomy is the study of how someone who buries a body, and how the body itself, affects the surrounding geological and botanical environment. Phenomena of interest include:

• disruption (acceleration or retardation) of plant growth and natural, subsoil root patterns

From the description of what a taphonomist does, this seems to be the only use the defense would have for one.

 

[Aedrys]

BBM - That's true, but it seemed to me he was trying to match experts with the state. That's just my opinion though.

But even the state didn't seem to know what a Taphonomy expert was! I don't think they have one those yet. After today's hearing...I bet they might be looking for one...

 

[whiteangora]

But even the state didn't seem to know what a Taphonomy expert was! I don't think they have one those yet. After today's hearing...I bet they might be looking for one...

That leads me to question just how unusual this type of expert is.
joypath, if you're still around, how many cases have you heard of that have utilized a Taphonomy expert?

 

[joypath]

That leads me to question just how unusual this type of expert is.
joypath, if you're still around, how many cases have you heard of that have utilized a Taphonomy expert?

I didn't catch the hearing "live" but from the L O N G videos....so entertaining! received the distinct impression that there was a subtle undercurrent of the state playing JB as a buffoon regarding this subject! Haven't had the pleasure of dealing with ANYBODY claiming ONLY this expert title, rather have dealt with forensic anthropological reports that referenced the issues. I have a sneaking feeling that JB is trying to gather as many "NAMES" and "TITLES" that he can so he can impress the jury as in "smoke and mirrors".

 

[debbie0604]

But even the state didn't seem to know what a Taphonomy expert was! I don't think they have one those yet. After today's hearing...I bet they might be looking for one...

You're right....that's why I was wondering how many "experts" are in this field. It doesn't seem to be a very prevelant or widespread field IMO. But then that's just my opinion. I may be wrong.

 

[joypath]

^Found this:
National standards require that "wet tissue" from autopsies be held for six months after issuing a final autopsy report, tissue in paraffin blocks (from which microscope slides are made) must be kept for five years, and the slides themselves along with the autopsy reports must be retained for twenty years.
http://www.deathreference.com/A-Bi/Autopsy.html

FYI: This is also the sample blocs that can/will be offered to a consulting specialist for a second opinion which can be cut and stained, same as the original slides which can be compared and contrasted with the new slides. AND not just in post mortem cases~ :snooty:


Of course if the primary blocking was substandard, all bets are OFF for quality results which is why histological specimens should be handled by HT(ASCP)s! (I do stick up for my brother & sister lab rats!):dance:

 

[ZsaZsa]

I didn't catch the hearing "live" but from the L O N G videos....so entertaining! received the distinct impression that there was a subtle undercurrent of the state playing JB as a buffoon regarding this subject! Haven't had the pleasure of dealing with ANYBODY claiming ONLY this expert title, rather have dealt with forensic anthropological reports that referenced the issues. I have a sneaking feeling that JB is trying to gather as many "NAMES" and "TITLES" that he can so he can impress the jury as in "smoke and mirrors".

My mind boggles at the thought of Baez actually going to trial, let alone trying to discuss high tech expert opinions in any meaningful way, he is so inarticulate he would not be convincing... I think this trial will be a defense fiasco.