GUILTY Denmark - Kim Wall, 30, Copenhagen, 10 Aug 2017

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re red bold - wondering "what" was said in the last phone call to her BF that made him think "something" was wrong?!

Thanks for the articles info guys! Very much appreciated.

I have followed the case pretty close in Danish media and this is the first I hear about such a call. I have been saying from early on, that the police must have had reasonable suspicion before Peter Madsen came ashore (he was virtually arrested the moment he sat foot on land).

It ties in with a "theory" I have been playing with (although it's very speculative - almost fictional). Lets say something inappropriate happened during their dive (Peter Madsen specifically said it was longer than normal). It might not have been much, but enough for her to get nervous, even afraid. Peter Madsen is also nervous. Perhaps afraid of repercussions if it gets out. Whatever happened also stopped. Perhaps he promise to sail her straight back to Copenhagen. When they surface, Peter Madsen climbs up in the conning tower to sail UC3 Nautilus while Kim Wall makes a quick (secret) call warning her boyfriend. When she climbs up from the submarine, Peter Madsen slams the hatch down on her head.

He expects the hatch and fall to kill her, and plans to use the hatch accident story. However, she is not dead. Maybe she is just stunned, maybe she is seriously injured, but she is not dead. He panics and chokes her (or anything else that leaves a mark). Now the body has choke marks on the neck; the hatch and fall story is out the window. He needs to dump the body. He tries to get her up through the access tube, but he can't. he has to dismember her and bring the parts up one by one. He is now in a bloody submarine and needs to come up with another story. He decides to simply say he dropped her off late in the evening. Why would anyone suspect him? Refshaleøen is a dark and desolate place - not a place a woman walks alone. He might be questioned, but he will have a few more days come up with a story. He heads towards Copenhagen, but begin to have second thoughts. What if they search the submarine? This is when he decides to scuttle Nautilus. Again he expects a least a few days before police starts looking at Nautilus. Long enough for blood to dissolve in seawater.

The rest is factual. Peter Madsen tells the police (and the media) that he dropped Kim Wall off the night before. However, the police move directly to raising Nautilus (that's expensive and they must have had a strong suspicion). Peter Madsen "comes clean" about the hatch accident (or in my theory reverts to the hatch accident in a new version - this time with a burial at sea).
 
I have followed the case pretty close in Danish media and this is the first I hear about such a call. I have been saying from early on, that the police must have had reasonable suspicion before Peter Madsen came ashore (he was virtually arrested the moment he sat foot on land).

It ties in with a "theory" I have been playing with (although it's very speculative - almost fictional). Lets say something inappropriate happened during their dive (Peter Madsen specifically said it was longer than normal). It might not have been much, but enough for her to get nervous, even afraid. Peter Madsen is also nervous. Perhaps afraid of repercussions if it gets out. Whatever happened also stopped. Perhaps he promise to sail her straight back to Copenhagen. When they surface, Peter Madsen climbs up in the conning tower to sail UC3 Nautilus while Kim Wall makes a quick (secret) call warning her boyfriend. When she climbs up from the submarine, Peter Madsen slams the hatch down on her head.

He expects the hatch and fall to kill her, and plans to use the hatch accident story. However, she is not dead. Maybe she is just stunned, maybe she is seriously injured, but she is not dead. He panics and chokes her (or anything else that leaves a mark). Now the body has choke marks on the neck; the hatch and fall story is out the window. He needs to dump the body. He tries to get her up through the access tube, but he can't. he has to dismember her and bring the parts up one by one. He is now in a bloody submarine and needs to come up with another story. He decides to simply say he dropped her off late in the evening. Why would anyone suspect him? Refshaleøen is a dark and desolate place - not a place a woman walks alone. He might be questioned, but he will have a few more days come up with a story. He heads towards Copenhagen, but begin to have second thoughts. What if they search the submarine? This is when he decides to scuttle Nautilus. Again he expects a least a few days before police starts looking at Nautilus. Long enough for blood to dissolve in seawater.

The rest is factual. Peter Madsen tells the police (and the media) that he dropped Kim Wall off the night before. However, the police move directly to raising Nautilus (that's expensive and they must have had a strong suspicion). Peter Madsen "comes clean" about the hatch accident (or in my theory reverts to the hatch accident in a new version - this time with a burial at sea).

This could have happened. He has a temper, throws things around and on other people, why not slam a 70 kg hatch on someone. Not out of character I think.

Not sure he intended to kill her though.

I hope they find her head, that will tell a story.

Ah, but I did, I had to - every day, I worked there last year and earlier this year and in the dark met..... tadaaaa, Peter Madsen. HAHAHA QUITE a spooky place.



Someone mentioned that the lumps of hair could be from the hatch hitting her head - but could it also be from him sawing off her head? Her hair was shoulder length.
 
IMO from what I have read: KW was supposed to exit the sub that evening AFTER the interview. The BF must have known that. Subsequently, assuming the BF tried calling her with no answer, and when she did not show up as planned, then the BF alerted authorities with a missing person report around 2:30 AM.
 
you met him in a dark, spooky place? :scared::hills:

This could have happened. He has a temper, throws things around and on other people, why not slam a 70 kg hatch on someone. Not out of character I think.

Not sure he intended to kill her though.

I hope they find her head, that will tell a story.

Ah, but I did, I had to - every day, I worked there last year and earlier this year and in the dark met..... tadaaaa, Peter Madsen. HAHAHA QUITE a spooky place.



Someone mentioned that the lumps of hair could be from the hatch hitting her head - but could it also be from him sawing off her head? Her hair was shoulder length.
 
you're only confused because you're trying to apply logic to an illogical act committed by a lying liar who lies

But wait. Peter Madsen said Kim Wall fell down 4 meters when she was hit by the hatch.

There may be 4 meters down from the tower hatch, which opens and lies flat, but not from the hatch on the deck, which opens to almost a 100 degrees and could have slammed shut.

I am confused.

https://tv2-dk-clips.secure.footprint.net/vod/mpx/TV2dk/848/671/1xg1ph3j2h.mp4




 
you're only confused because you're trying to apply logic to an illogical act committed by a lying liar who lies


Yes, maybe this is all total and utter madness.
 
Interesting that Kim Falkenberg, who helped build Nautilus says that an accident with the hatch isn´t that far fetched.
We have been looking at the wrong hatch, which opened all the way. KF says the hatch they exited/tried to exit opened to an angle of 95 to100 degrees.

Here is a photo of the hatch in question (I think?) :

https://www.bt.dk/danmark/jens-bygg...-madsen-derfor-kan-hans-forklaring-vaere-sand

Doesn´t change the lies and the dismemberment though, which still point to murder in my opinion.
Here is closeup of hatch from that article. At 150lbs (70kilos) at that 95-100° angle it's not going to flip on it's own...he would have had to have heaved it closed. Just the plain laws of physics I think will prove that...and I think that is why he now has the newest option on what happened being "she accidentally pulled the counterbalance to close it" ...

Jmo
e97d38cab19d6abb9a498ef014e1b8ba.jpg


Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
2 retired policemen gives their opinion on the case.

http://nyheder.tv2.dk/2017-09-07-ti...adsens-forklaring-plausibel-og-her-halter-den (in danish)

Translated:
Peter Madsen told the court on Tuesday that Kim Wall died in an accident on board the submarine.
On Tuesday, the public got an insight into what happened between 10 and 11 August, when the 30-year-old Swedish journalist Kim Wall lost her life aboard Peter Madsen's submarine.
Peter Madsen says an accident occurred on Nautilus, which led to Kim Wall's death, after which he, in his own words, "buried Kim Wall at sea."
He acknowledged that he had thrown the body of the Swedish journalist Kim Wall aboard the submarine, Nautilus, thus acknowledging his indecent handling of a body, which is one of the conditions for which he is charged.
- Yes, he acknowledges the burying her at sea, his defender Betina Hald Engmark confirms after the hearing.

TV 2 has got Kurt Kragh, former criminal commissioner in the Police Travel Team, and Jan Jarlbæk, who has more than 23 years of police investigation investigating, among other things, the State Police and Europol, to review Peter Madsen's explanations of what happened onboard the submarine.
They assess whether they find plausible explanations based on the information we currently have. Both experts make reservations that they do not know the matter in detail.

All the following points are based on Peter Madsen's explanations at the hearing on Wednesday, September 6th.

Nine explanations from Peter Madsen
01 - Kim Wall was hit by a hatch
Peter Madsen has told that he lost the grip of a 70 kilo heavy hatch when he was on his way up the submarine's tower. He explained that he was slipping because he had wet feet after a dive with the sub. According to Peter Madsen, the blow from the hatch gave Kim Wall a skull fracture that killed her on the spot.
Jan Jarlbæk: Immediately it seems quite plausible. To Peter Madsen's defense, one can argue that if the submarine has just been submerged, the surface may have been slippery. Now maybe a reconstruction is waiting - maybe with Peter Madsen himself, where he wears the same shoes.
Kurt Kragh: In the event of a possible reconstruction, the police will have a submarine expert who can assess whether such an accident can be done at all. Peter Madsen will be asked to describe exactly where her head and hands were located when she was on the way up the submarine's tower.

02 - The submarine lay crooked in the water
According to prosecutor Jacob Buch-Jepsen, Peter Madsen has previously said that the submarine was crooked in the water. He said on Tuesday that it was the waves from a ship that caused the submarine to roll.
Jan Jarlbæk: The assertion that another boat caused a wave at the time when the hatch slammed, the police will be able to investigate via logging data from SOK, the Operational Command of the Sea.
Kurt Kragh: The police will try to make a reconstruction of the incident as far as possible.

03 - Panties and socks slipped at the same time
In the submarine, blood, tufts of hair, tights and a pair of black women's shorts have been found. According to Peter Madsen, both underpants and nylon stockings slipped by itself as he tied a rope over Kim Wall's ankles to pull her body up through the submarine's tower.
Kurt Kragh: Immediately, the explanation is not plausible. A reconstruction must clarify whether it can be done.
Jan Jarlbæk: This claim is therefore difficult for me to be considered plausible. I find it hard to imagine that both tights and panties are sliding off at the same time.

04 - Did not contact the authorities
Peter Madsen admitted in court on Tuesday that he should have contacted the authorities shortly after finding that Kim Wall was dead. He emphasized that he did not act rationally, but instead was "mentally weak and foolish."
Jan Jarlbæk: His explanation is basically plausible. In the case of an accident, Peter Madsen may have lost the overview, but it does not change that he, after healing, could have sailed back to land with Kim Wall's body. For me to see, he hides something. For every minute that goes, he makes matters worse for himself.
Kurt Kragh: It's not unusual for us to see people running away after an accident. What I question, is his subsequent very rational way of thinking on how he gets rid of the body.

05 - Throwed the body into the water
Peter Madsen has acknowledged that he has thrown the body of Kim Wall overboard. He still refuses to the dismembering. He also refuses to give her the 11 iron pipes found on the torso, but according to police technicians, they are closely matching iron pipes found by a search of his workshop at Refshale Island.
Jan Jarlbæk: Peter Madsen's explanation of a 'funeral at sea' I do not believe.
Kurt Kragh: I totally disregard Peter Madsen's explanations that it is not him who has dismembered the body. For me, there is no doubt that it is Peter Madsen who has dismembered the body. I have no imagination to imagine who else should have done that. This should be seen in the light of the fact that there were no others aboard the submarine.

06 - Mobile phone was thrown overboard
Peter Madsen has acknowledged that he has thrown his mobile phone into the water. It is still unclear what has happened to Kim Wall's mobile phone. It has not been found aboard the submarine.
Jan Jarlbæk: Technically, the police can retrieve information about the connections that have been made to the mobile phones. However, it is not possible to find specific data on the phones such as messages when you do not have physical access to the mobile phones.

07 - Dismembered torso
It is still unclear why Kim Wall's body has become dismembered. It was only her torso found by a cyclist on the beach side at Klydesøen in Vestamager.
Jan Jarlbæk: In order to understand why the body is involved, we must go into the head of Peter Madsen. From a criminal mindset, it has been easier for him to get the body out of the submarine. The body may also be part of a wish that it will be harder to find as well as to reduce the risk of floating to the sea surface.
Kurt Kragh: The legal medics can say with 100 percent confidence that the body is part of a conscious act. It does not depend on that Peter Madsen denies having done this. Then someone else should have come by and have dismembered, but it's not plausible.

08 - Left Kim Wall on Refshale Island
Peter Madsen explained on August 11 that he had left Kim Wall on Refshale Island. The question now is why he came up with this unbelievable explanation, shortly after he had been sailed ashore by a yacht.
Kurt Kragh: I do not think Peter Madsen was aware that the police already were on the case when he landed on Friday, August 11th. It was Kim Walls boyfriend who, after a last call from Kim Wall, alerted the police. They subsequently launched a major investigation. The police only does so if there is a serious report.
Jan Jarlbæk: There is no logic in it. It seems to me that he has known that he has been in trouble. I assume that the police questioned witnesses on the Refshale island, surveyed by video surveillance cameras and received reports from the Sea Operative Command, about which entries there had been to and from Refshale Island on Thursday evening.

09 - The pressure and stress
In court, Peter Madsen acknowledged that in the period up to his arrest he had been hard pressed psychologically and 'very stressed'.
Kurt Kragh: This assertion may well be right.
Jan Jarlbæk: A mental examination must now provide insight into Peter Madsen's mental state. Here, among other things, it will be examined whether he has empathy or whether he is self-assertive and ignorant of the feelings of other people.

Yeah I see that. Ekstra Bladet has this:
15:35 - The prosecutor's office is currently asking how her panties can fall off. The two are starting to discuss.
"You must ask some women," answers Peter Madsen.
15:33 - Did you notice that her pants also fell off?
"Yes, they pulled off the tights," answers Peter Madsen.
15:33 - Kim's shoes and tights fell off when I lifted her up, says Peter Madsen.

In all other articles where this is mentioned I see the version from Ekstra Bladet. JyskeVestkysten is alone in interpret like that

Well, if he pulled her up through the tower by her tied ankles, I really don' t see the possibilty of that action pulling off pants or hose, now. They'd have to go off over her head if friction were the cause of that, here.
 
Here is closeup of hatch from that article. At 150lbs (70kilos) at that 95-100° angle it's not going to flip on it's own...he would have had to have heaved it closed. Just the plain laws of physics I think will prove that...and I think that is why he now has the newest option on what happened being "she accidentally pulled the counterbalance to close it" ...

Jmo
e97d38cab19d6abb9a498ef014e1b8ba.jpg


Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

That's the deck hatch. The tower hatch does not open the same way.
 
But wait. Peter Madsen said Kim Wall fell down 4 meters when she was hit by the hatch.

There may be 4 meters down from the tower hatch, which opens and lies flat, but not from the hatch on the deck, which opens to almost a 100 degrees and could have slammed shut.

I am confused.


http://jyllands-posten.dk/pictures/...790869/6wwna2/ALTERNATES/h-free/pf---nautilus


https://tv2-dk-clips.secure.footprint.net/vod/mpx/TV2dk/848/671/1xg1ph3j2h.mp4


It's the other way around. The deck hatch opens flat against the deck. the tower hatch opens 100 dg. I don't even think the deck hatch was functional.
 
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This shows how far the tower hatch opens. It's certainly not impossible someone would grab the handle on their way up. However, it looks like you would grab it when part of your body is through the hole (like the woman in the picture). That might pull the hatch down on you, but it wouldn't slam onto your head with deadly force.
 

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This shows how far the tower hatch opens. It's certainly not impossible someone would grab the handle on their way up. However, it looks like you would grab it when part of your body is through the hole (like the woman in the picture). That might pull the hatch down on you, but it wouldn't slam onto your head with deadly force.

Thanks, this saves me from looking for pictures of the hatches. I had already started, lol

I confused the tower hatch and the deck hatch.

Re the red: It seems unlikely. He needed blood in his scenario because of the dismemberment, which he won´t admit. So came up with this.
 
PM at the last court hearing:

One asks if I'm into hard S / M, and I have to say no. I'm in the form of sex where women are allowed to express their sexuality, he elaborates.
'

Oh, thanks, PM, we are "allowed" to express our sexuality.

By whom, by the way?

This says a lot about his view of women.

_____________________________

He also says that he is suffering from a bad conscience. Prior to the accident, he has joked with Kim Wall about whether the lid could fall.

Wouldn´t you think that Kim Wall would have been careful NOT to touch the hatch if this had taken place?
 
PM at the last court hearing:

'

Oh, thanks, PM, we are "allowed" to express our sexuality.

By whom, by the way?

This says a lot about his view of women.

_____________________________



Wouldn´t you think that Kim Wall would have been careful NOT to touch the hatch if this had taken place?

It's a bad translation. What he really says is that he is attracted to women who aren't afraid of expressing their sexuality (read sexually confident women).
 
PM at the last court hearing:

'

Oh, thanks, PM, we are "allowed" to express our sexuality.

By whom, by the way?

This says a lot about his view of women.

_____________________________



Wouldn´t you think that Kim Wall would have been careful NOT to touch the hatch if this had taken place?

Where did you get the thing about joking with Kim about the hatch?
 
It's a bad translation. What he really says is that he is attracted to women who aren't afraid of expressing their sexuality (read sexually confident women).

The translation is accurate according to the live blog transscript from BT.
https://www.bt.dk/krimi/to-foerende-drabseksperter-her-er-peter-madsens-forklaring-hullet-som-en-si

Page one
5 sep 2017 15:12
- Man spørger, om jeg er til hård S/M, og der må jeg sige nej. Jeg er til den form for sex, hvor kvinder får lov til at udtrykke deres seksualitet, uddyber han.

Where do you have your source from?




_______________________________________________________________________________________________

MONDA:
Where did you get the thing about joking with Kim about the hatch?

Here: (page two)
https://www.bt.dk/krimi/to-foerende-drabseksperter-her-er-peter-madsens-forklaring-hullet-som-en-si

5 sep 2017 15:33
Han fortæller også, at han er ramt af dårlig samvittighed. Inden ulykken har han joket med Kim Wall om, hvorvidt lugen kunne falde ned.
 
Movie death?

Peter Madsen claims Kim Wall suffered severe open skull fracture from a combination of the heavy hatch slamming down on her head and falling 12 feet down afterwards. From his description it's clear both blood and brain was flowing from her head. That's not a fractured skull, that's a crushed skull (the bone has broken).

The access tube is quite narrow (2' diameter) which means Kim Wall would fall straight down feet first, and then collapse on the floor (this might break bone, but it will not crush your skull). Any impact on her head from steps would not be significant enough to crack open her skull, so the hatch itself must have crushed it. Can a 70kg hatch really crush a human skull?

From the picture above it's clear the hatch wouldn't fall straight down. It would tip over the 90dg point and accelerate in a downward arch before slamming shut. A free falling 70kg hatch (dropping straight down 1 meter) would produce 686 Newton, which is a good bit less than an adult falling falling and landing his head (some 850-900 Newton). Remember the arch movement would produce less force than a hatch falling straight down (I'm not gonna do the trajectory impact calculations). I'm pretty sure we all know someone who has fallen and hit their head. How many got an open skull fracture and died for their trouble? Right, it's extremely rare. However, rare does not mean impossible. If the handle hit a weak spot it could certainly give her a skull fracture, but can it really kill her? Come on. People have survived being beaten with baseball bats (producing significantly more force - 15.000-20.000 Newton).

If, as Peter Madsen suggests, Kim Wall accidentally pulled the hatch down over herself, her arm would likely have been between her skull and the hatch (slowing the downward acceleration of the hatch). She would also have been far enough up to reach it comfortably (as if it was a step), which is probably very much like the picture above. It's pretty clear you can hurt yourself in that scenario, but it's equally clear it wouldn't kill you.

The only way the hatch could possibly have killed her would be if she was coming up head first and the hatch slammed down exactly as her head came through the manhole. This would be an almost impossible coincidence (considering she is moving up and only would be in that position for a fraction of a second). Even then, Peter Madsen would be in no position to pronounce her dead (technically only a doctor can do this, unless the head is separated from the body, and Danes are required by law to assist an injured person to the best of their ability. This law actually carries a higher maximum sentence than abuse of corpse - 8yrs vs 6 months).

The next thing is the twitching. Kim Wall is lying by the foot of the steps, bleeding profusely and her body twitching in death throes (we have all seen this in movies). I asked a friend, who is a 3 tour combat vet (Afghanistan), about this. Never seen it, he said. This does not mean dead/dying people can't twitch, but it's more something people who hasn't experienced violent death would expect it to look like (rather than something closely associated with violent death). It's something a hack writer/director would be sure to include in a death scene.

I'm not saying the hatch story is impossible, but that it's somewhat improbable. The hatch could injure you seriously, it might even damage you beyond repair, but it would not damage you in a way that makes it obvious you are stone cold dead and beyond any medical aid.
 
The translation is accurate according to the live blog transscript from BT.
https://www.bt.dk/krimi/to-foerende-drabseksperter-her-er-peter-madsens-forklaring-hullet-som-en-si

Page one
5 sep 2017 15:12


Where do you have your source from?




_______________________________________________________________________________________________

MONDA:


Here: (page two)
https://www.bt.dk/krimi/to-foerende-drabseksperter-her-er-peter-madsens-forklaring-hullet-som-en-si

5 sep 2017 15:33

I can't find the thing about joking. Please post a direct link or a screenshot.

You are mistaking "får lov" (is/are allowed) with "får lov" (can/being able). The same in danish, but very different in English. It's not about being allowed by someone, but about being able. Having a space where you can show your sexuality is what Kinky Salon is all about (the fetish parties he went to). That's why he also says he likes lipstick and stockings.
 
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