It's with in the possible that clothes and other items floated around as the submarine filled with water, or when it was drained. The rest of her clothes (skirt and sweater + whatever she had under the sweater) has not been found.
GUILTY Denmark - Kim Wall, 30, Copenhagen, 10 Aug 2017
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It's with in the possible that clothes and other items floated around as the submarine filled with water, or when it was drained. The rest of her clothes (skirt and sweater + whatever she had under the sweater) has not been found.
I'm pretty sure the "lock of hair" wording isn't from the prosecution (I assume it's the journalists own wording). Technically Peter Madsen could have gotten blood and hair on him while moving/dumping the body. If he had a shower after, he looks clean on the arrest photos, the blood/hair would end in the shower room. However, we didn't hear about Peter Madsen taking a shower. Maybe it just wasn't part of the hearing, or maybe it's not even part of his story. Peter Madsen did say he changed his coveralls.
Yes, he claimed he tied a different strip around her (and used a rope to pull her up feet first). The report differs a bit between the medias. Peter Madsen said he didn't tie the tubes to Kim Wall, but that similar tubes (uncut) might be found in his workshop.
Logical_Inference
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According to a friend that helped building the submarine is it plausible that it was an accident.
https://www.bt.dk/danmark/jens-bygg...-madsen-derfor-kan-hans-forklaring-vaere-sand (in danish)
Translated:
Could Kim Wall have lost her life due to an accident on the submarine UC3 Nautilus?
Yes, Peter Madsen's friend believes Jens Falkenberg, who has built Nautilus together with the now deadly inventor.
Peter Madsen has provided several different explanations of what happened to Kim Wall. First, he told the police that he had landed Kim Wall on Refshale Island on August 10 at 22:30.
To the hearing in Copenhagen City on August 12, Peter Madsen then tells instead that Kim Wall is dead. She got the hatch in the submarine's tower in her head because PM got an overbalance and grabbed the hatch so it slammed in. Just as Kim Wall was on her way up the tower. Then she fell over four meters down the tower and hit the floor.
At Tuesday's hearing, Peter Madsen explained in the first place that he did not know how the door had fallen over the Kim Wall. The prosecutor confronted him with the fact that at the last hearing, more than two weeks before, he explained that he got hold of the hatch when he lost the balance. PM confirms that, but says that, over the last few weeks, he thought that Kim Wall might have pulled a special closing mechanism at the doorway, thus pulling the hatch over herself.
Jens Falkenberg, who has buildt Nautilus in collaboration with Peter Madsen, does not rule whether or not Peter Madsen is lying, but only about the latest explanation is a realistic explanation of what could have happened on the submarine, which has been the cause of Kim Walls dead.
And that may well have happened as Peter Madsen describes, he says.
"It's not unlikely that it can happen," says Jens Falkenberg, and continues:
»The hatch is very massive and heavy, but there are two big counterbalances in it, so it can be opened from the inside. If you do not know where to pull the hatch, you can accidentally pull it down over you, when it's open, "he says.
- Can you be hurt that way?
"Yes, if you pull it down on your head, you can get a bonk and become unconscious. In fact, I would say that one should be lucky not to be beaten unconsciously if you are hit. Then you fall over four meters down until you hit the bottom, which is in solid steel, "says Jens Falkenberg.
Jens Falkenberg emphasizes that the submarine is not built for safety purposes. Peter Madsen explained in court that the door was in a vertical position. Jens Falkenberg confirms that the hatch in the tower can only be opened to stand in almost vertical position. It stands in contrast to the other hatch that is located further on the submarine. When it's open, it lies down the deck.
"The the towerhatch may fall down by pushing it or pulling it. It stands at an angle of 95-100 degrees. It's almost vertical. It's designed like the counterweights would not work, "he says.
The weather was very quiet during the time when Kim Wall lost his life. At Tuesday's hearing, Peter Madsen explained that a larger ship sailed past.
"I feel that the boat is in motion due to heavy wave activity," said Peter Madsen.
»The hatch is equipped with a closing mechanism. Something I've been thinking about in the long thinking time I've had is that Kim has seized the closing mechanism. If she has pulled it, you can pull the hatch down over yourself, "added Peter Madsen.
Peter Madsen explained in court that when he went into the submarine after the accident, he found Kim Wall lying on the steel floor. She had open skull fractures and cramps. It stops quickly and Peter Madsen concludes that she is dead.
https://www.bt.dk/danmark/jens-bygg...-madsen-derfor-kan-hans-forklaring-vaere-sand (in danish)
Translated:
Could Kim Wall have lost her life due to an accident on the submarine UC3 Nautilus?
Yes, Peter Madsen's friend believes Jens Falkenberg, who has built Nautilus together with the now deadly inventor.
Peter Madsen has provided several different explanations of what happened to Kim Wall. First, he told the police that he had landed Kim Wall on Refshale Island on August 10 at 22:30.
To the hearing in Copenhagen City on August 12, Peter Madsen then tells instead that Kim Wall is dead. She got the hatch in the submarine's tower in her head because PM got an overbalance and grabbed the hatch so it slammed in. Just as Kim Wall was on her way up the tower. Then she fell over four meters down the tower and hit the floor.
At Tuesday's hearing, Peter Madsen explained in the first place that he did not know how the door had fallen over the Kim Wall. The prosecutor confronted him with the fact that at the last hearing, more than two weeks before, he explained that he got hold of the hatch when he lost the balance. PM confirms that, but says that, over the last few weeks, he thought that Kim Wall might have pulled a special closing mechanism at the doorway, thus pulling the hatch over herself.
Jens Falkenberg, who has buildt Nautilus in collaboration with Peter Madsen, does not rule whether or not Peter Madsen is lying, but only about the latest explanation is a realistic explanation of what could have happened on the submarine, which has been the cause of Kim Walls dead.
And that may well have happened as Peter Madsen describes, he says.
"It's not unlikely that it can happen," says Jens Falkenberg, and continues:
»The hatch is very massive and heavy, but there are two big counterbalances in it, so it can be opened from the inside. If you do not know where to pull the hatch, you can accidentally pull it down over you, when it's open, "he says.
- Can you be hurt that way?
"Yes, if you pull it down on your head, you can get a bonk and become unconscious. In fact, I would say that one should be lucky not to be beaten unconsciously if you are hit. Then you fall over four meters down until you hit the bottom, which is in solid steel, "says Jens Falkenberg.
Jens Falkenberg emphasizes that the submarine is not built for safety purposes. Peter Madsen explained in court that the door was in a vertical position. Jens Falkenberg confirms that the hatch in the tower can only be opened to stand in almost vertical position. It stands in contrast to the other hatch that is located further on the submarine. When it's open, it lies down the deck.
"The the towerhatch may fall down by pushing it or pulling it. It stands at an angle of 95-100 degrees. It's almost vertical. It's designed like the counterweights would not work, "he says.
The weather was very quiet during the time when Kim Wall lost his life. At Tuesday's hearing, Peter Madsen explained that a larger ship sailed past.
"I feel that the boat is in motion due to heavy wave activity," said Peter Madsen.
»The hatch is equipped with a closing mechanism. Something I've been thinking about in the long thinking time I've had is that Kim has seized the closing mechanism. If she has pulled it, you can pull the hatch down over yourself, "added Peter Madsen.
Peter Madsen explained in court that when he went into the submarine after the accident, he found Kim Wall lying on the steel floor. She had open skull fractures and cramps. It stops quickly and Peter Madsen concludes that she is dead.
This is very interesting news. From all the photos I have seen the two hatches appeared identical, and that the conning tower hatch would lie against the deck when open (making it near impossible for it to slam accidentally). Besides the dismemberment, the hatch accident was my main beef with Peter Madsens story.
Logical_Inference
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This is Ekstra Bladets wording from the live-reporting:
Bloods have been found on the floor in various places, tufts of hair, tights and ladies underware in the submarine. Neither Kim Walls nor Peter Madsen's phones are found.
Logical_Inference
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It doesnt seem that PM said anything about it was not him that tied the tubes to the belt.
From live-reporting on EB:
The prosecutor asks if he is suspending something about her life. He says yes to that. It's a so-called 'strap' - a nylon strap that was on the submarine, he says.
- You have seen pictures of the tubes that the torso was sunk down with. Are there the same tubes found on the torso that you used?
"It's not the belt that I put on the body. The pipes could be some that could be found in my workshop, Peter Madsen answers the prosecutor.
He just say that its not the same belt.
Logical_Inference
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Yeah it could have happened that way, and we would not have been suspicious if only PM had told the truth from start and had not try to hide stuff.
If Peter Madsen admits dismemberment he is looking at 6 months for abuse of corpse (unless the police finds hard evidence for murder - unlikely).
Yes, that's quite odd. I kinda assumed he meant not that belt and not with the tubes - even if he didn't specify it.
Jennifer17
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But her underwear has been found. Why is it that that only her underwear was found so easily?
Logical_Inference
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Now I havent examined this myself, but I saw a reference from this care to another: Peter Lundin.
Maybe its worth reading up on this a little to see any similarities. It would be interesting to see how the police were able
to prove that he killed his victims and that it was him dismembering them.
Logical_Inference
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Yeah good question. Thats another weak point of his explanation I believe.
Peter Madsen actually says he takes off her tights, so he can take off her shoes. They did not fall/slide off.
"I take off her tights so I can take off her shoes." ("Jeg vil gerne tage strømpebuksen af, så jeg kan tage hendes sko af.")
That doesn't really make much sense, since you need the shoes off to remove the tights - not the other way around.
He says her panties came off while pulling the tights off. I see no issue here (besides the tights before shoes).
He gives the reason that he wanted/needed to tie a rope around her ankles to pull her up.
"I take off her tights so I can take off her shoes." ("Jeg vil gerne tage strømpebuksen af, så jeg kan tage hendes sko af.")
That doesn't really make much sense, since you need the shoes off to remove the tights - not the other way around.
He says her panties came off while pulling the tights off. I see no issue here (besides the tights before shoes).
He gives the reason that he wanted/needed to tie a rope around her ankles to pull her up.
There were far more circumstantial evidence in the Lundin case. It was QUITE clear the victims had been dismembered in the garage (blood, bones, chopping marks). Personal items were found at Lundin's father. Lundin even admitted killing and dismembering them during a police interview - although he later retracted this and denied the charge in court. Very very different case.
Also, Lundin was a known psychopath who had killed before.
Logical_Inference
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2 retired policemen gives their opinion on the case.
http://nyheder.tv2.dk/2017-09-07-ti...adsens-forklaring-plausibel-og-her-halter-den (in danish)
Translated:
Peter Madsen told the court on Tuesday that Kim Wall died in an accident on board the submarine.
On Tuesday, the public got an insight into what happened between 10 and 11 August, when the 30-year-old Swedish journalist Kim Wall lost her life aboard Peter Madsen's submarine.
Peter Madsen says an accident occurred on Nautilus, which led to Kim Wall's death, after which he, in his own words, "buried Kim Wall at sea."
He acknowledged that he had thrown the body of the Swedish journalist Kim Wall aboard the submarine, Nautilus, thus acknowledging his indecent handling of a body, which is one of the conditions for which he is charged.
- Yes, he acknowledges the burying her at sea, his defender Betina Hald Engmark confirms after the hearing.
TV 2 has got Kurt Kragh, former criminal commissioner in the Police Travel Team, and Jan Jarlbæk, who has more than 23 years of police investigation investigating, among other things, the State Police and Europol, to review Peter Madsen's explanations of what happened onboard the submarine.
They assess whether they find plausible explanations based on the information we currently have. Both experts make reservations that they do not know the matter in detail.
All the following points are based on Peter Madsen's explanations at the hearing on Wednesday, September 6th.
Nine explanations from Peter Madsen
01 - Kim Wall was hit by a hatch
Peter Madsen has told that he lost the grip of a 70 kilo heavy hatch when he was on his way up the submarine's tower. He explained that he was slipping because he had wet feet after a dive with the sub. According to Peter Madsen, the blow from the hatch gave Kim Wall a skull fracture that killed her on the spot.
Jan Jarlbæk: Immediately it seems quite plausible. To Peter Madsen's defense, one can argue that if the submarine has just been submerged, the surface may have been slippery. Now maybe a reconstruction is waiting - maybe with Peter Madsen himself, where he wears the same shoes.
Kurt Kragh: In the event of a possible reconstruction, the police will have a submarine expert who can assess whether such an accident can be done at all. Peter Madsen will be asked to describe exactly where her head and hands were located when she was on the way up the submarine's tower.
02 - The submarine lay crooked in the water
According to prosecutor Jacob Buch-Jepsen, Peter Madsen has previously said that the submarine was crooked in the water. He said on Tuesday that it was the waves from a ship that caused the submarine to roll.
Jan Jarlbæk: The assertion that another boat caused a wave at the time when the hatch slammed, the police will be able to investigate via logging data from SOK, the Operational Command of the Sea.
Kurt Kragh: The police will try to make a reconstruction of the incident as far as possible.
03 - Panties and socks slipped at the same time
In the submarine, blood, tufts of hair, tights and a pair of black women's shorts have been found. According to Peter Madsen, both underpants and nylon stockings slipped by itself as he tied a rope over Kim Wall's ankles to pull her body up through the submarine's tower.
Kurt Kragh: Immediately, the explanation is not plausible. A reconstruction must clarify whether it can be done.
Jan Jarlbæk: This claim is therefore difficult for me to be considered plausible. I find it hard to imagine that both tights and panties are sliding off at the same time.
04 - Did not contact the authorities
Peter Madsen admitted in court on Tuesday that he should have contacted the authorities shortly after finding that Kim Wall was dead. He emphasized that he did not act rationally, but instead was "mentally weak and foolish."
Jan Jarlbæk: His explanation is basically plausible. In the case of an accident, Peter Madsen may have lost the overview, but it does not change that he, after healing, could have sailed back to land with Kim Wall's body. For me to see, he hides something. For every minute that goes, he makes matters worse for himself.
Kurt Kragh: It's not unusual for us to see people running away after an accident. What I question, is his subsequent very rational way of thinking on how he gets rid of the body.
05 - Throwed the body into the water
Peter Madsen has acknowledged that he has thrown the body of Kim Wall overboard. He still refuses to the dismembering. He also refuses to give her the 11 iron pipes found on the torso, but according to police technicians, they are closely matching iron pipes found by a search of his workshop at Refshale Island.
Jan Jarlbæk: Peter Madsen's explanation of a 'funeral at sea' I do not believe.
Kurt Kragh: I totally disregard Peter Madsen's explanations that it is not him who has dismembered the body. For me, there is no doubt that it is Peter Madsen who has dismembered the body. I have no imagination to imagine who else should have done that. This should be seen in the light of the fact that there were no others aboard the submarine.
06 - Mobile phone was thrown overboard
Peter Madsen has acknowledged that he has thrown his mobile phone into the water. It is still unclear what has happened to Kim Wall's mobile phone. It has not been found aboard the submarine.
Jan Jarlbæk: Technically, the police can retrieve information about the connections that have been made to the mobile phones. However, it is not possible to find specific data on the phones such as messages when you do not have physical access to the mobile phones.
07 - Dismembered torso
It is still unclear why Kim Wall's body has become dismembered. It was only her torso found by a cyclist on the beach side at Klydesøen in Vestamager.
Jan Jarlbæk: In order to understand why the body is involved, we must go into the head of Peter Madsen. From a criminal mindset, it has been easier for him to get the body out of the submarine. The body may also be part of a wish that it will be harder to find as well as to reduce the risk of floating to the sea surface.
Kurt Kragh: The legal medics can say with 100 percent confidence that the body is part of a conscious act. It does not depend on that Peter Madsen denies having done this. Then someone else should have come by and have dismembered, but it's not plausible.
08 - Left Kim Wall on Refshale Island
Peter Madsen explained on August 11 that he had left Kim Wall on Refshale Island. The question now is why he came up with this unbelievable explanation, shortly after he had been sailed ashore by a yacht.
Kurt Kragh: I do not think Peter Madsen was aware that the police already were on the case when he landed on Friday, August 11th. It was Kim Walls boyfriend who, after a last call from Kim Wall, alerted the police. They subsequently launched a major investigation. The police only does so if there is a serious report.
Jan Jarlbæk: There is no logic in it. It seems to me that he has known that he has been in trouble. I assume that the police questioned witnesses on the Refshale island, surveyed by video surveillance cameras and received reports from the Sea Operative Command, about which entries there had been to and from Refshale Island on Thursday evening.
09 - The pressure and stress
In court, Peter Madsen acknowledged that in the period up to his arrest he had been hard pressed psychologically and 'very stressed'.
Kurt Kragh: This assertion may well be right.
Jan Jarlbæk: A mental examination must now provide insight into Peter Madsen's mental state. Here, among other things, it will be examined whether he has empathy or whether he is self-assertive and ignorant of the feelings of other people.
http://nyheder.tv2.dk/2017-09-07-ti...adsens-forklaring-plausibel-og-her-halter-den (in danish)
Translated:
Peter Madsen told the court on Tuesday that Kim Wall died in an accident on board the submarine.
On Tuesday, the public got an insight into what happened between 10 and 11 August, when the 30-year-old Swedish journalist Kim Wall lost her life aboard Peter Madsen's submarine.
Peter Madsen says an accident occurred on Nautilus, which led to Kim Wall's death, after which he, in his own words, "buried Kim Wall at sea."
He acknowledged that he had thrown the body of the Swedish journalist Kim Wall aboard the submarine, Nautilus, thus acknowledging his indecent handling of a body, which is one of the conditions for which he is charged.
- Yes, he acknowledges the burying her at sea, his defender Betina Hald Engmark confirms after the hearing.
TV 2 has got Kurt Kragh, former criminal commissioner in the Police Travel Team, and Jan Jarlbæk, who has more than 23 years of police investigation investigating, among other things, the State Police and Europol, to review Peter Madsen's explanations of what happened onboard the submarine.
They assess whether they find plausible explanations based on the information we currently have. Both experts make reservations that they do not know the matter in detail.
All the following points are based on Peter Madsen's explanations at the hearing on Wednesday, September 6th.
Nine explanations from Peter Madsen
01 - Kim Wall was hit by a hatch
Peter Madsen has told that he lost the grip of a 70 kilo heavy hatch when he was on his way up the submarine's tower. He explained that he was slipping because he had wet feet after a dive with the sub. According to Peter Madsen, the blow from the hatch gave Kim Wall a skull fracture that killed her on the spot.
Jan Jarlbæk: Immediately it seems quite plausible. To Peter Madsen's defense, one can argue that if the submarine has just been submerged, the surface may have been slippery. Now maybe a reconstruction is waiting - maybe with Peter Madsen himself, where he wears the same shoes.
Kurt Kragh: In the event of a possible reconstruction, the police will have a submarine expert who can assess whether such an accident can be done at all. Peter Madsen will be asked to describe exactly where her head and hands were located when she was on the way up the submarine's tower.
02 - The submarine lay crooked in the water
According to prosecutor Jacob Buch-Jepsen, Peter Madsen has previously said that the submarine was crooked in the water. He said on Tuesday that it was the waves from a ship that caused the submarine to roll.
Jan Jarlbæk: The assertion that another boat caused a wave at the time when the hatch slammed, the police will be able to investigate via logging data from SOK, the Operational Command of the Sea.
Kurt Kragh: The police will try to make a reconstruction of the incident as far as possible.
03 - Panties and socks slipped at the same time
In the submarine, blood, tufts of hair, tights and a pair of black women's shorts have been found. According to Peter Madsen, both underpants and nylon stockings slipped by itself as he tied a rope over Kim Wall's ankles to pull her body up through the submarine's tower.
Kurt Kragh: Immediately, the explanation is not plausible. A reconstruction must clarify whether it can be done.
Jan Jarlbæk: This claim is therefore difficult for me to be considered plausible. I find it hard to imagine that both tights and panties are sliding off at the same time.
04 - Did not contact the authorities
Peter Madsen admitted in court on Tuesday that he should have contacted the authorities shortly after finding that Kim Wall was dead. He emphasized that he did not act rationally, but instead was "mentally weak and foolish."
Jan Jarlbæk: His explanation is basically plausible. In the case of an accident, Peter Madsen may have lost the overview, but it does not change that he, after healing, could have sailed back to land with Kim Wall's body. For me to see, he hides something. For every minute that goes, he makes matters worse for himself.
Kurt Kragh: It's not unusual for us to see people running away after an accident. What I question, is his subsequent very rational way of thinking on how he gets rid of the body.
05 - Throwed the body into the water
Peter Madsen has acknowledged that he has thrown the body of Kim Wall overboard. He still refuses to the dismembering. He also refuses to give her the 11 iron pipes found on the torso, but according to police technicians, they are closely matching iron pipes found by a search of his workshop at Refshale Island.
Jan Jarlbæk: Peter Madsen's explanation of a 'funeral at sea' I do not believe.
Kurt Kragh: I totally disregard Peter Madsen's explanations that it is not him who has dismembered the body. For me, there is no doubt that it is Peter Madsen who has dismembered the body. I have no imagination to imagine who else should have done that. This should be seen in the light of the fact that there were no others aboard the submarine.
06 - Mobile phone was thrown overboard
Peter Madsen has acknowledged that he has thrown his mobile phone into the water. It is still unclear what has happened to Kim Wall's mobile phone. It has not been found aboard the submarine.
Jan Jarlbæk: Technically, the police can retrieve information about the connections that have been made to the mobile phones. However, it is not possible to find specific data on the phones such as messages when you do not have physical access to the mobile phones.
07 - Dismembered torso
It is still unclear why Kim Wall's body has become dismembered. It was only her torso found by a cyclist on the beach side at Klydesøen in Vestamager.
Jan Jarlbæk: In order to understand why the body is involved, we must go into the head of Peter Madsen. From a criminal mindset, it has been easier for him to get the body out of the submarine. The body may also be part of a wish that it will be harder to find as well as to reduce the risk of floating to the sea surface.
Kurt Kragh: The legal medics can say with 100 percent confidence that the body is part of a conscious act. It does not depend on that Peter Madsen denies having done this. Then someone else should have come by and have dismembered, but it's not plausible.
08 - Left Kim Wall on Refshale Island
Peter Madsen explained on August 11 that he had left Kim Wall on Refshale Island. The question now is why he came up with this unbelievable explanation, shortly after he had been sailed ashore by a yacht.
Kurt Kragh: I do not think Peter Madsen was aware that the police already were on the case when he landed on Friday, August 11th. It was Kim Walls boyfriend who, after a last call from Kim Wall, alerted the police. They subsequently launched a major investigation. The police only does so if there is a serious report.
Jan Jarlbæk: There is no logic in it. It seems to me that he has known that he has been in trouble. I assume that the police questioned witnesses on the Refshale island, surveyed by video surveillance cameras and received reports from the Sea Operative Command, about which entries there had been to and from Refshale Island on Thursday evening.
09 - The pressure and stress
In court, Peter Madsen acknowledged that in the period up to his arrest he had been hard pressed psychologically and 'very stressed'.
Kurt Kragh: This assertion may well be right.
Jan Jarlbæk: A mental examination must now provide insight into Peter Madsen's mental state. Here, among other things, it will be examined whether he has empathy or whether he is self-assertive and ignorant of the feelings of other people.
Logical_Inference
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Ok.
We could use it to see what the police need to convict him, or the other way around what they dont have to acquit him.
I already see that they havent found any bone-fragments in the sub. Can you dismember a body without tiny bone-fragments is left?
Logical_Inference
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Where did you find that info??
Logical_Inference
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Interesting overview of the case:
https://translate.google.com/transl...adsen-opgaven-kim-wall-aldrig-vendte-hjem-fra
https://translate.google.com/transl...adsen-opgaven-kim-wall-aldrig-vendte-hjem-fra
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