GUILTY Denmark - Kim Wall, 30, Copenhagen, 10 Aug 2017

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The accident.

Peter Madsen' story about an accident might seem plausible at first (strictly from a theoretical standpoint). It's technically possible a 140lbs iron hatch would crack a skull if it slammed down on it. However, the only way to enter/exit through such a hatch would be to open if fully, so the weight is resting on the deck (otherwise you would have to hold 140lbs while you enter/exit). There is no lock mechanism to hold the hatch open; the weight is enough. The picture below shows the deck hatch open (I do not have a picture of the conning tower hatch, but they are identical).

https://imgur.com/a/zu2uv

Peter Madsen has told two versions of this story. One is that he slipped and dropped the hatch, the other that hatch slammed for unspecified reasons (ship movement is implied). The hatch cannot hold itself in the halfway position. If would either fall shut, or fall fully open. The only way Peter Madsen's claim could be true, is if he opened it fully and climbed through, then lifted and held the hatch while Kim Wall climbed up the ladder. The only reason anyone would do this is probably to slam it over someones head. My guess is that either he actually did this (slammed it over her head on purpose), or the hatch played no role in Kim Wall's death.

The prosecution didn't reveal any result from forensic investigation of the hatch. Neither did they reveal if they looked into previous hatch accidents (has it ever just slammed shut? if it can kill someone it has likely injured people before).

From yesterdays hearing this is how I read the case. Peter Madsen had for some time entertained violent fantasies (of a sexual nature). A witness claimed she felt they had intensified lately. I don't think Peter Madsen specifically planned to kill Kim Wall, but he likely had fantasies about killing someone in UC3 Nautilus (if the tubes used to weigh down the torso came from his workshop, he would have cut them and placed them in the submarine earlier). He had contacted a woman out of the blue (she and her friend had spontaneously been invited for a dive two months earlier, but neither knew Peter Madsen in any way), and asked if she wanted to go for a dive (two days before sailing out with Kim Wall). I believe he enjoyed toying with the idea of killing someone and getting away with it, but that he (probably) thought it was pure fantasy and under control (this isn't an uncommon start for rapists and murderers). During the trip with Kim Wall he lost control and killed her spontaneously (fulfilling the fantasy he had nurtured for some time). There is a saying in the military: No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy. From the moment he killed Kim Wall, Peter Madsen had little idea what to do. He might have gone through the scenario in his head before, but it probably bore little resemblance to the actual act of killing. Whatever plan he thought he had must have been dropped. Otherwise he wouldn't have sailed around for so long even the maritime rescue services were looking for him (he was missing for more than 12 hours). Rather than having a cunning plan, Peter Madsen was/is making it up as he goes along. Yet, for some reason he cannot bring himself to admit to dismembering Kim Wall (even if it would negate the main piece of circumstantial evidence for murder). This might be because he doesn't want people to see him as someone who could chop up a human body. The psychological evaluation will likely reveal that Peter Madsen has an inflated sense of himself (and a very low view of others). Peter Madsen probably still think he will get away with it,and showed signs of annoyance when the prosecution asked to weak points in his story (Especially anything sexual related to Kim Wall).

Note about the "buried at sea" story. While we can all agree his story doesn't constitute a burial in any way, there is a bit which seemed to be overlooked. If we follow Peter Madsen's story, he became suicidal and decided to end his life by drowning in UC3 Nautilus. Peter Madsen claims he didn't feel Kim Wall deserved to be entombed with him in the submarine. Of course the story makes little sense when considering the dismemberment, but in his mind it was almost a noble act and it explains why he dumped the body (not to hide it, but so it shouldn't be lost and forgotten in a submarine wreck). Needless to say it makes little sense, but it's important to his story.

Some of what you write is probably right. But I do not think he was noble in the burial-act. His statement said that he didnt want a dead person in his boat. He did not say that he didnt want Kim as dead in his boat. I think he has detached himself totally from her, as if he didnt know her at all and wasnt responsible for her dead.

About the hatch, I seem to recall that there was some rumor about that the police couldnt get the hatch open, so that they had to cut it open to get in to the submarine. I am not sure what that could mean, other than he somehow had locked it when he sank the boat. Like he didnt want anyone to go there.

I do not think that it was spontanious, but I agree with that his plan probably didnt match reality so he had to do a rethink, hence that he laid down to sleep ( = think)
 
About 11: I noticed that too, that Ekstra Bladets reporter wrote "towards the workshop", but a TV2-news reporter that also had been in the courtroom, told after the meeting that he walked "towards the submarine", which makes more sense to me because its not really relevant that he walked towards the workshop. Its much more circumstantial that he walked towards the submarine.

12: It could be worded that the police think that its the same type of tubes then.

Ok, I followed it on BT and EB. Both were rather confused about the saw. Certainly makes more sense as circumstantial evidence, if he walked to the submarine.


Yes, they seemed sure it was the same type of tube.
 
BT ( a danish newspaper) ask 10 interesting questions abot the case:

https://www.bt.dk/krimi/se-listen-10-ting-der-belaster-raket-madsen-og-vaekker-stor-undren-i-ubaads (in danish)

1) How does the Swedish journalist, according to Peter Madsen's explanation, suddenly get the heavy iron hatch in the tower of the submarine in her head when it was almost quiet (no wind) at sea during the evening trip in the moonlight in Øresund?

2) Why does Peter Madsen not try to get help or contact the authorities after Kim Wall's death? Instead, he says, according to his own explanation, he goes to sleep for a few hours in the submerged submarine, where Kim Wall's bloody body is still on the floor.

3) How is it possible that both the Swedish journalists' black nylon stockings and black pants fell off? According to Peter Madsen, they almost roll themselves off as he ties a rope around her ankles to pull her body up through the submarine's tower.

4) Why does Peter Madsen choose to dismember the body, throwing it into the sea, according to his own explanation, and to have fitted a strap belt with heavy tool around her life? According to Peter Madsen, he was not the one giving her the 11 iron pipes as weight, which are found on the torso, but according to police technicians, they are matching closely to iron pipes found by a search at his workshop on the Reftshale island.

5) Why does Peter Madsen deliberately choose to lower the Nautilus submarine, which for years has been the focal point of his life when the submarine on the morning of August 11 is discovered in the waters south of Amager?

6) Why does Peter Madsen throw his cell phone aboard the submarine before his arrest and what has happened to Kim Wall's cell phone, which she apparently had on the fatal voyage with Nautilus?

7) Why is the head, arms and legs cut from the body of Kim Wall when her torso is found by a cyclist on the beachfront at Klydesøen in Vestamager?

8) What has happened to the saw with orange shaft that an eyewitness watched Peter Madsen carry to the submarine a few hours before he sails from Refshale Island on August 10?

9) Why does Peter Madsen on his arrest and preliminary hearing at the police in the afternoon of 11 August, state that he has left Kim Wall alive at Refshale Island at. 22.30 the previous night?

10) According to the prosecutor, witnesses have told the police that "death and sex" was Peter Madsen's very big issue in the run-up to the fatal cruise with the Swedish journalist. In court, he recognized that during the period up to his arrest he had been hard pressed mentally and "very stressed".
 
Some of what you write is probably right. But I do not think he was noble in the burial-act. His statement said that he didnt want a dead person in his boat. He did not say that he didnt want Kim as dead in his boat. I think he has detached himself totally from her, as if he didnt know her at all and wasnt responsible for her dead.

About the hatch, I seem to recall that there was some rumor about that the police couldnt get the hatch open, so that they had to cut it open to get in to the submarine. I am not sure what that could mean, other than he somehow had locked it when he sank the boat. Like he didnt want anyone to go there.

I do not think that it was spontanious, but I agree with that his plan probably didnt match reality so he had to do a rethink, hence that he laid down to sleep ( = think)

That was the deck hatch. There are two hatches. The conning tower hatch (the one from the accident), and the deck hatch (the one I think was sealed off, and that the police couldn't open).

Regarding "burial at sea" (from EB.DK court report)


"I am in a state where I have decided that I can not continue the life I live. An appropriate end to Peter Madsen, it is Nautilus. But I think that's not an appropriate end for Kim."
 
That was the deck hatch. There are two hatches. The conning tower hatch (the one from the accident), and the deck hatch (the one I think was sealed off, and that the police couldn't open).

Regarding "burial at sea" (from EB.DK court report)


"I am in a state where I have decided that I can not continue the life I live. An appropriate end to Peter Madsen, it is Nautilus. But I think that's not an appropriate end for Kim."

Yeah he tried to act like he cared.
This is his first statement about it:
- Kim Wall is down and lies with the legs exactly in the position of the tower hatch. I want to have the dead person away from the boat. I do not think she should join my trip.
Then a minute later he adds:
"I am in a state where I have decided that I can not continue the life I live. An appropriate end to Peter Madsen, it is Nautilus. But I think that's not an appropriate end for Kim

I think he just realised that he sounded like a mad man and had to put some human touch to it. But that is just my opinion.
 
Yeah he tried to act like he cared.
This is his first statement about it:
- Kim Wall is down and lies with the legs exactly in the position of the tower hatch. I want to have the dead person away from the boat. I do not think she should join my trip.
Then a minute later he adds:
"I am in a state where I have decided that I can not continue the life I live. An appropriate end to Peter Madsen, it is Nautilus. But I think that's not an appropriate end for Kim

I think he just realised that he sounded like a mad man and had to put some human touch to it. But that is just my opinion.

it's possible, but I think he has constructed his entire defense around the idea that he "mercifully" dropped Kim Wall in the water so she shouldn't follow him down with Nautilus. This is probably why he denies the dismemberment charge. It simply goes against the image he wants to portrait.
 
it's possible, but I think he has constructed his entire defense around the idea that he "mercifully" dropped Kim Wall in the water so she shouldn't follow him down with Nautilus. This is probably why he denies the dismemberment charge. It simply goes against the image he wants to portrait.

Yeah he might have thought so much about what to say about it, but I doubt it though, because the police has the impression that he construct his statements according to what he feels fits best at the moment.
I think that his initial plan of what to say has been ruined already at day 1, so he has to invent something that in his ear sounds plausible and makes it hard for the police to argue against. It doesnt work well so far though.

Otherwise it could be his lawyer that advises him to sound like he is a caring person. She is not really doing him any good.
 
Yeah he might have thought so much about what to say about it, but I doubt it though, because the police has the impression that he construct his statements according to what he feels fits best at the moment.
I think that his initial plan of what to say has been ruined already at day 1, so he has to invent something that in his ear sounds plausible and makes it hard for the police to argue against. It doesnt work well so far though.

Otherwise it could be his lawyer that advises him to sound like he is a caring person. She is not really doing him any good.

Yes, that's why I don't think he really planned to kill Kim Wall. I think he fantasized about killing someone in the submarine, but if he specifically planned to kill Kim Wall he is completely incompetent.
 
Thanks for all the new info! Logical_Inference! Very much appreciated.

So - he is being held for another 4 weeks - does that mean he'll be in about October 3rd??

Did anyone get a "date" of next court appearance.

TIA!

JUSTICE for KIM! :rose:
 
Thanks for all the new info! Logical_Inference! Very much appreciated.

So - he is being held for another 4 weeks - does that mean he'll be in about October 3rd??

Did anyone get a "date" of next court appearance.

TIA!

JUSTICE for KIM! :rose:

There is no court date set. He is detained in pretrial custody until 3. October, so the prosecution must request a new hearing before that. Likely it will be on the day.
 
Peter Madsen is much, much sicker in his mind than I thought.

I felt a little strange writing here that he had actually scared me at an instance. I got afraid of him one night in January earlier this year.
I left work, and he cycled by me very, very slowly, all the while staring at me, no smile, no hi (he knows who I am), no nothing, turning his head, just eerie. Dark and no other people around. Now it just makes sense, not just me being a scaredy-cat.

One thing that astounds me about his accounts: the utter lack of common sense and logic. He comes across maybe not at stupid, but as totally detached from reality. He had time to think things through, and he comes up with THIS!
And I agree, he thinks he is smart and everybody else is dumb. Always a problem, it will be the end of him.

I hate the disrespect he shows Kim Wall. I don´t think his story is true, that she had to be off Nautilus because it was not her destiny to go down with it; but the fact he even comes up with such a story is very telling. She was not worthy.

Her poor, poor relatives, boyfriend and friends to have to listen to this madman.
 
Thanks for all the updates, info and ideas from Danish speakers. It's very chilling.

I think there's the possibility of lots of forensics to disprove his story: for eg, her DNA on him (eg fingernails), and his DNA with her remains. A scientific match between the pipes on her remains, and the pipes they were cut from, back in his workshop. The likely quantity/dispersal of blood from a head trauma, and the actual location of the blood traces.

I personally think he dismembered the remains because they were too heavy to get out of the submarine, and because he believed that way her they wouldn't be recovered. I also think that, unless someone has had a lot of experience (perhaps as a hunter), it can take a long time to dispose of a body that way.
 
Here is a photo of the deck hatch open with PM standing in it. It is quite narrow.

http://ekstrabladet.dk/incoming/cy0d9z/6776656/IMAGE_ALTERNATES/p900/doc6w7ncd1tg3qfvla1irm.jpg

Unrelated, but here a list of what was found in the submarine (at least what the prosecution share with the public):

Blood and pantyhose on the floor where PM claims Kim Wall fell down.

Blood and (locks of?) hair in the bathroom (the exact wording: toilet/bathroom - so is there a bathroom on board? I thought not.)

Panties in the engine room.

One contact lens, I don´t know where - anyone? Edit: it was found with the pantyhose and blood close to where he claims she fell down. (Reading up, sorry!)

I write this because I thought the submarine had been flooded with seawater, but apparently not?
 
Thanks for all the updates, info and ideas from Danish speakers. It's very chilling.

I think there's the possibility of lots of forensics to disprove his story: for eg, her DNA on him (eg fingernails), and his DNA with her remains. A scientific match between the pipes on her remains, and the pipes they were cut from, back in his workshop. The likely quantity/dispersal of blood from a head trauma, and the actual location of the blood traces.

I personally think he dismembered the remains because they were too heavy to get out of the submarine, and because he believed that way her they wouldn't be recovered. I also think that, unless someone has had a lot of experience (perhaps as a hunter), it can take a long time to dispose of a body that way.

I think so too. I also think he will change his story when that is presented to him - and change it again if something else collides with his fairy tale.
He is well on his way painting himself into a corner.
I am afraid his psychological evaluation will show an IQ within the average range, nothing spectacular there.

I think he admitted he used those pipes tied to a belt on her WHOLE body - or did I get that wrong?

I agree with your theory about the dismemberment.
 
From the court hearing yesterday.

15:35

The prosecutor asks if he strapped something about her waist. He says yes to that. It's a so-called 'strap' - a nylon strap that was on the submarine, he says.


15:39

You have seen pictures of the tubes that the torso was sunk down with. Are there the same tubes found on the torso that you used? "It's not the belt that I put on the body. The pipes could be some that could be found in my workshop, Peter Madsen answers the prosecutor.


I don´t know if Peter Madsen is claiming that he tied a strip around her body - but that she was found with a different strip (!)

Maybe this is due to inaccurate reporting (two different reporters).
 
Here is a photo of the deck hatch open with PM standing in it. It is quite narrow.

http://ekstrabladet.dk/incoming/cy0d9z/6776656/IMAGE_ALTERNATES/p900/doc6w7ncd1tg3qfvla1irm.jpg

Unrelated, but here a list of what was found in the submarine (at least what the prosecution share with the public):

Blood and pantyhose on the floor where PM claims Kim Wall fell down.

Blood and (locks of?) hair in the bathroom (the exact wording: toilet/bathroom - so is there a bathroom on board? I thought not.)

Panties in the engine room.

One contact lens, I don´t know where - anyone? Edit: it was found with the pantyhose and blood close to where he claims she fell down. (Reading up, sorry!)

I write this because I thought the submarine had been flooded with seawater, but apparently not?

Yes, there is a small shower room on UC3 Nautilus. Past the salon from where Kim Wall is said to have fallen.

The prosecution just said "hair". That could be anything from two strands to a big lump.

Yes, the submarine had been full of water for more than 24 hours. The items might have moved.
 
Yes, there is a small shower room on UC3 Nautilus. Past the salon from where Kim Wall is said to have fallen.

The prosecution just said "hair". That could be anything from two strands to a big lump.

Yes, the submarine had been full of water for more than 24 hours. The items might have moved.

So the clothing from her below the waist could have just floated there? Was there any other clothing recovered or just her underwear?
I am sure that she was wearing .more items of clothing than just her knickers and pantyhose, but only they have been found in the sub.
 
Yes, there is a small shower room on UC3 Nautilus. Past the salon from where Kim Wall is said to have fallen.

The prosecution just said "hair". That could be anything from two strands to a big lump.

Yes, the submarine had been full of water for more than 24 hours. The items might have moved.
h
And if you get hit in the head by a hatch cove, do your knickers and pantyhose just fall off?
 
Yes, there is a small shower room on UC3 Nautilus. Past the salon from where Kim Wall is said to have fallen.

The prosecution just said "hair". That could be anything from two strands to a big lump.

Yes, the submarine had been full of water for more than 24 hours. The items might have moved.

According to TV2-news they did find larger hairlocks on the floor in the sub, and in this article on TV2.dk the prosecutor also tells that they found hair in more places:

http://nyheder.tv2.dk/krimi/2017-09-05-faa-overblikket-det-fremlagde-anklageren-i-ubaadssag-tirsdag (in danish)

We have found Kim Walls blood, hair, tights and panties on the submarine Nautilus. Prosecutor Jacob Buch-Jepsen explained in court that blood and tights have been found on some plates that match the place Peter Madsen claims she was following the alleged accident.
Blood and hair have also been found in the bathroom. The machine room has found hair and panties.
 
h
And if you get hit in the head by a hatch cove, do your knickers and pantyhose just fall off?

PM said that it fell off when he tried to lift her with a rope on her ankles, which is one of the very weak points in his statements.
 
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