Did John Ramsey carry the body to contaminate the scene or not?

[DeeDee249]

LinasK,
Brand New, Not Washed? Probably, but guess what: Patsy was asked during the Atlanta Interview if she had ever washed the size-12's since giving them to JonBenet, I think Patsy replied with ramnesia.

Surely only IDI think the touch-dna on the size-12's has any relevance. Also the size-12's the R's handed back should surley have matching touch-dna on the seam also. Lets assume its from the person's thumb or finger as they machine stitch the seam to the pants?

.

Forensics testing could easily have been done to test for the presence of laundry detergent or softener. I have no idea if it was done, but I have seen the panties described as "new, unused". And as we know, NO other size 12 panties were found in the house when it was searched. The "remaining" 6 pairs in the set was allegedly "found" by the Rs 5 years later in a box that had not previously been unpacked. The panty set, still in the package, was sent to Boulder LE by a R lawyer. The fact that they were still in the package proved 2 things- that Patsy lied when she claimed she put them in JB's panty drawer (none were found in there) and that the Wednesday pair was deliberately removed. These panty sets come packed in the order of the days of the week- the Wednesday pair would be in the middle. So it isn't like someone just pulled out the first pair in the package. JB herself, could not read, so would not have chosen them herself - and Christmas that day WAS a Wednesday. (A very "Patsy" thing to do - making sure, even in death, that JB was perfectly dressed).

 

[BoldBear]

It's disgusting to think how the investigators missed finding this evidence. If they weren't able to get fingerprints and tDNA, the very location of the package could have helped.

 

[UKGuy]

Forensics testing could easily have been done to test for the presence of laundry detergent or softener. I have no idea if it was done, but I have seen the panties described as "new, unused". And as we know, NO other size 12 panties were found in the house when it was searched. The "remaining" 6 pairs in the set was allegedly "found" by the Rs 5 years later in a box that had not previously been unpacked. The panty set, still in the package, was sent to Boulder LE by a R lawyer. The fact that they were still in the package proved 2 things- that Patsy lied when she claimed she put them in JB's panty drawer (none were found in there) and that the Wednesday pair was deliberately removed. These panty sets come packed in the order of the days of the week- the Wednesday pair would be in the middle. So it isn't like someone just pulled out the first pair in the package. JB herself, could not read, so would not have chosen them herself - and Christmas that day WAS a Wednesday. (A very "Patsy" thing to do - making sure, even in death, that JB was perfectly dressed).

DeeDee249,

I'd like to have had the other six pairs of size-12 underwear tested for a touch-dna match, if found, it would blow the Intruder theory away!

The fact that they were still in the package proved 2 things- that Patsy lied when she claimed she put them in JB's panty drawer (none were found in there) and that the Wednesday pair was deliberately removed.

BBM: ITA. It is curious they had to be the Wednesday pair, why was Christmas Day so important? The Date Of Death on her tombstone is also Christmas Day! Maybe the R's are being truthful here, could JonBenet have been in a coma prior to 12:00 Midnight? You have to wonder if the person who found them did not know that Patsy was on record saying she opened the pack and put them into JonBenet's underwear drawer, presumably it was not Patsy?

(A very "Patsy" thing to do - making sure, even in death, that JB was perfectly dressed).

Sure, but was she, drooping size-12's on her pageant princess, that does not sound like Patsy to me, more like BR needing another pair with the same day of the week on it?


Maybe it simply a case of sibling abuse gone wrong, I guess thats wishful thinking on my part as Kolar's theory has BR down as a sociopath, who was not even deterred when Patsy's family offered advice and books, etc.



.

 

[Meara]

Maybe it simply a case of sibling abuse gone wrong, I guess thats wishful thinking on my part as Kolar's theory has BR down as a sociopath, who was not even deterred when Patsy's family offered advice and books, etc.

Kolar implies that Burke had SBP (sexual behavior problems), a condition specific to pre-adolescent children, not at all to be equated with behavior in adolescent and adult sexual offenders. Children with SBP need therapy because it typically is the result of anxiety, trauma or abuse, and most children who receive therapy do not continue to have these problems. Kolar didn't imply that Burke was sociopathic. It probably would have helped Kolar's case if he were since he would have gone on to exhibit antisocial behavior and become the prime suspect in JBR's murder. As it is, for all practical purposes it's as though JBR were killed by a dart made of ice.

 

[UKGuy]

Kolar implies that Burke had SBP (sexual behavior problems), a condition specific to pre-adolescent children, not at all to be equated with behavior in adolescent and adult sexual offenders. Children with SBP need therapy because it typically is the result of anxiety, trauma or abuse, and most children who receive therapy do not continue to have these problems. Kolar didn't imply that Burke was sociopathic. It probably would have helped Kolar's case if he were since he would have gone on to exhibit antisocial behavior and become the prime suspect in JBR's murder. As it is, for all practical purposes it's as though JBR were killed by a dart made of ice.

Meara,
mmm, wouldn't be nice if all that was at issue was BR's alleged SBP? Someone sexually assaulted, asphyxiated and inflicted blunt force trauma on JonBenet, that does not sound like typical pre-adolescent behaviour to me?

Yet Kolar reckons JonBenet's death was planned, that all adds up to something way beyond SBP issues.

.

 

[Meara]

Meara,
mmm, wouldn't be nice if all that was at issue was BR's alleged SBP? Someone sexually assaulted, asphyxiated and inflicted blunt force trauma on JonBenet, that does not sound like typical pre-adolescent behaviour to me?

Yet Kolar reckons JonBenet's death was planned, that all adds up to something way beyond SBP issues.

.

You're right; it isn't typical pre-adolescent behavior. That's part of Kolar's point. Pre-adolescents with SBP aren't typical. They are deeply wounded children with disordered behavior - disordered in a way that often confounds those without experience or academic knowledge of it. In fact, this is why parents frequently minimize the risk of harm to other children. They can't believe that a child who doesn't show other signs of what would be termed conduct disorder is capable of sexual aggression against another child. Because SBPs' preoccupation with sexual behavior is obsessive, yes, unfortunately, they are capable of premeditated as well as impulsive aggressive behavior. Kolar did his homework on SBP, and I'm afraid anyone who hopes to make a fair assessment of his theory will have to do theirs, too.

 

[UKGuy]

You're right; it isn't typical pre-adolescent behavior. That's part of Kolar's point. Pre-adolescents with SBP aren't typical. They are deeply wounded children with disordered behavior - disordered in a way that often confounds those without experience or academic knowledge of it. In fact, this is why parents frequently minimize the risk of harm to other children. They can't believe that a child who doesn't show other signs of what would be termed conduct disorder is capable of sexual aggression against another child. Because SBPs' preoccupation with sexual behavior is obsessive, yes, unfortunately, they are capable of premeditated as well as impulsive aggressive behavior. Kolar did his homework on SBP, and I'm afraid anyone who hopes to make a fair assessment of his theory will have to do theirs, too.

Meara,

That's part of Kolar's point.

For the record what, in your estimation, was Kolar's point.

All this talk about SBP is interesting, but only differs from various spectral autism disorders by its focus on sexual matters. There are numerous disorders and syndromes that have a direct link to some kind of brain dysfunction. SBP does not appear to fall into that kind of category?

.

 

[Meara]

Part of Kolar's point is that someone without knowledge of SPB wouldn't know to look for it or be able to identify it.

SBP differs entirely from autism spectrum disorder in etiology, symptomology and treatment. SBP is typically caused by anxiety, trauma or abuse. Autism is widely believed to be caused by brain abnormalities.

 

[UKGuy]

Part of Kolar's point is that someone without knowledge of SPB wouldn't know to look for it or be able to identify it.

SBP differs entirely from autism spectrum disorder in etiology, symptomology and treatment. SBP is typically caused by anxiety, trauma or abuse. Autism is widely believed to be caused by brain abnormalities.

Meara,
BBM: BR was never really in the frame until we, more or less, had exhausted the alternatives. I guess not many had knowledge of SPB, myself included, so I never looked for it.

Autism is widely believed to be caused by brain abnormalities.

Sure and many see that as a positive thing, rather than focus on the whatever the dysfunction is, and concentrate on the enhanced perceptions.

.

 

[Meara]

Meara,
BBM: BR was never really in the frame until we, more or less, had exhausted the alternatives. I guess not many had knowledge of SPB, myself included, so I never looked for it.

Thank you. I didn't know about SBP, either, until Kolar wrote about it and I researched it further. I had never ruled BR out but didn't think envy was a convincing explanation and believed BR would have been in more trouble since then if he were sociopathic. The more I've learned about SBP, the better I've seen how well it fits the physical and behavioral evidence.

Before our exchange, the thread was focused on the underwear and whether JR carried the body to contaminate the scene, and I don't want to derail it completely or shut you down. Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss the SBP theory further.

 

[questfortrue]

Thank you. I didn't know about SBP, either, until Kolar wrote about it and I researched it further. I had never ruled BR out but didn't think envy was a convincing explanation and believed BR would have been in more trouble since then if he were sociopathic. The more I've learned about SBP, the better I've seen how well it fits the physical and behavioral evidence.

Before our exchange, the thread was focused on the underwear and whether JR carried the body to contaminate the scene, and I don't want to derail it completely or shut you down. Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss the SBP theory further.

Very well described, Meara.

Simply to clarify a couple of other points regards Kolar and his theory: Kolar carefully outlines SBP and also discusses BR’s interview with Dr. Bernhard. He does not make any claim about a sociopathic personality and references what Bernhard says about this. I asked further about indications of childhood personality disorders, and Dr. Bernhard explained that anxiety such as that displayed by Burke at points in his interview comes from caring and that this type of behavior is not typically observed in sociopathic personalities. She indicated that some of Burke’s behavior could more likely be indicative of a dysfunctional environment.

Unfortunately for the case AH allowed the family the island of privacy on medical records. Without those records, one can’t close in on a real diagnosis of SBP or any other identification of BR’s issues. So even though Kolar did his research, SBP will remain a theory.

Where Kolar’s theory becomes blurred is that in his online AMA interview Kolar states to the Reddit audience that kids have been responsible for homicides in the past. However, when one looks more closely at the interview, one can see he neatly sidesteps the question about whether there was one or two people involved in her death. He simply says it’s possible it was only one person. Because Kolar also indicates he believes the head blow occurred in the area of the kitchen, moving an unconscious child to the basement becomes problematic for BR. Utilizing his theory and juxtaposing his head blow location with the application of the ligature location, there remain still various judgments on the critical portion of the final scenario. IMO.

 

[CanManEh]

No one can say if he did or did not for sure because the case is not solved .But anyone that believes the parents did it has to agree that he picked her up and carried her for that exact reason..I forget where i read it but i remember the officer even told john and who ever went with him that if u find anything DO NOT TOUCH IT, ALSO i remember that the too officers just looked and stared at one another like ah struck when john walked in and was doing just what they had said not to do but also the way he was holding her anyways yes i believe he did it for that reason .

 

[cynic]

Where Kolar’s theory becomes blurred is that in his online AMA interview Kolar states to the Reddit audience that kids have been responsible for homicides in the past. However, when one looks more closely at the interview, one can see he neatly sidesteps the question about whether there was one or two people involved in her death. He simply says it’s possible it was only one person. Because Kolar also indicates he believes the head blow occurred in the area of the kitchen, moving an unconscious child to the basement becomes problematic for BR. Utilizing his theory and juxtaposing his head blow location with the application of the ligature location, there remain still various judgments on the critical portion of the final scenario. IMO.

Kolar believes that BR was responsible for both the skull fracture and asphyxiation. Where he believes there is latitude is in the extent of staging and degree of involvement by the parents.

 

[UKGuy]

Thank you. I didn't know about SBP, either, until Kolar wrote about it and I researched it further. I had never ruled BR out but didn't think envy was a convincing explanation and believed BR would have been in more trouble since then if he were sociopathic. The more I've learned about SBP, the better I've seen how well it fits the physical and behavioral evidence.

Before our exchange, the thread was focused on the underwear and whether JR carried the body to contaminate the scene, and I don't want to derail it completely or shut you down. Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss the SBP theory further.

Meara,
Consider opening a new thread with SBP as the topic, it can only be rejected, many members will be interested in a summary of SBP, myself included, without having to purchase medical books, etc.

The manner in which Kolar discussed SBP left me with the impression it was an umbrella term, as distinct from say Autism Spectrum Disorder which is grounded in particular dysfunctions of the brain?

.

 

[UKGuy]

Very well described, Meara.

Simply to clarify a couple of other points regards Kolar and his theory: Kolar carefully outlines SBP and also discusses BR’s interview with Dr. Bernhard. He does not make any claim about a sociopathic personality and references what Bernhard says about this. I asked further about indications of childhood personality disorders, and Dr. Bernhard explained that anxiety such as that displayed by Burke at points in his interview comes from caring and that this type of behavior is not typically observed in sociopathic personalities. She indicated that some of Burke’s behavior could more likely be indicative of a dysfunctional environment.

Unfortunately for the case AH allowed the family the island of privacy on medical records. Without those records, one can’t close in on a real diagnosis of SBP or any other identification of BR’s issues. So even though Kolar did his research, SBP will remain a theory.

Where Kolar’s theory becomes blurred is that in his online AMA interview Kolar states to the Reddit audience that kids have been responsible for homicides in the past. However, when one looks more closely at the interview, one can see he neatly sidesteps the question about whether there was one or two people involved in her death. He simply says it’s possible it was only one person. Because Kolar also indicates he believes the head blow occurred in the area of the kitchen, moving an unconscious child to the basement becomes problematic for BR. Utilizing his theory and juxtaposing his head blow location with the application of the ligature location, there remain still various judgments on the critical portion of the final scenario. IMO.

questfortrue,
That quote by Dr. Bernhard opens up a can of worms for me, since what kind of childhood personality disorder that has caring as a factor leads to premeditated homicide?

IMO Kolar's implied theory is that it all took place in the breakfast bar, and BR moved JonBenet downstairs hence the abrasions and contusions on her back, etc. This also implies a possible post-mortem sexual assault, followed by staging, e.g. size-12's, with JonBenet being left in situ, and the parents becoming engaged after an hour or so?

.

 

[Meara]

qft and UKGuy, I wanted to respond to your comments first but think a sort of ferocious footnote about sociopathy and personality disorders would be useful now.

Personality disorders are fixed patterns of inner experience and behavior that do not change over time. Other people have quirks and flaws. For people with PDs, the whole personality is disordered. Suppose a person has depression. For as long as it lasts, the depression seems to take over the person's whole personality and life. But, take away the depression and the person is still there. With a PD, take away the disorder and there's no one there. For all practical purposes, the person is the disorder. It's the whole way he or she is configured. I'm not exploring the PD universe here - Kohut's and Kernberg's work with borderlines, the tendency of some NPDs to mellow out when they reach 50, etc. I'm explaining, albeit crudely, how people with PDs are essentially different both from normal people and people with less severe disorders.

About sociopaths in particular -- The actual diagnosis is Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD) and, briefly, people with ASPD are sometimes described either as sociopaths or psychopaths, depending on the extremeness of their behavior, with the former being more common and the latter being far worse and mercifully rare.

Children cannot be diagnosed with personality disorders because they are still developing. At grade school age, some will not yet display the the problems that will warrant a PD diagnosis later in life; and if there is abnormal behavior, it's too early to say whether it will or will not change. With ASPD in particular, the diagnosis cannot be made before age 15.

What about a 9 or 10 year old child who displays a persistent array of antisocial behavior; e.g., stealing, lying, damaging property, injuring others, and so on? A diagnosis of Conduct Disorder can be made.

All people diagnosed with Antisocial Personality Disorder have a past diagnosis of Conduct Disorder or a psychosocial history that meets the criteria for it even if it was not formally diagnosed at the time. The inverse is not true. Not all children who exhibit antisocial behavior grow up to be sociopaths. A child who lies, steals, and throws rocks through windows, or hits people may be reacting to a difficult home environment or to peer pressure, or to something else, and will give up the behaviors when the underlying problems are relieved.

So it's important when talking about Burke and SBP to keep the concepts and language sorted out and distinguish between behavior and personality. If he was engaged in coercive sexual behavior with JonBenet and smearing poop, then yes, that was antisocial behavior, but no, he didn't have Conduct Disorder. By all accounts, he was a nice kid, quiet, did well in school, had friends, and didn't get into trouble. Family friends and teachers might not have known what he was doing with his sister, but if he'd also been lying, nicking things from his friends, hurting people, or setting fires (and he would have been if he had Conduct Disorder), it would have come to light.

And no, although he may have had some serious antisocial behavior, he didn't have an antisocial personality. He was 9 going on 10, still developing. If he had been a little sociopath in the making, he'd have gone on to become a grown sociopath, and given his family's notoriety, we'd have heard about it -- JonBenet Brother Caught Cheating on Exams, 3rd DUI (assault charge, rape accusation, drug arrest, fraud indictment) for Brother of Slain Child Beauty Queen, Underage Sex Charge Raises New Questions About 1996 Christmas Murder Mystery. His family's money couldn't have protected him forever.

If Burke was suffering from SBP, he was acting out in reaction to severe anxiety, trauma, or abuse. The obsessive nature of the disorder could have made him capable of a premeditated sexual assault on JBR but almost certainly not premeditated murder. And, the disorder did not displace the rest of his psyche. He still loved his parents, still had feelings, empathy, needs, friends, limits and vulnerability, unlike sociopaths, who lack empathy, vulnerability, and regard for the rights, boundaries and well being of others pretty much 24/7.

 

[UKGuy]

qft and UKGuy, I wanted to respond to your comments first but think a sort of ferocious footnote about sociopathy and personality disorders would be useful now.

Personality disorders are fixed patterns of inner experience and behavior that do not change over time. Other people have quirks and flaws. For people with PDs, the whole personality is disordered. Suppose a person has depression. For as long as it lasts, the depression seems to take over the person's whole personality and life. But, take away the depression and the person is still there. With a PD, take away the disorder and there's no one there. For all practical purposes, the person is the disorder. It's the whole way he or she is configured. I'm not exploring the PD universe here - Kohut's and Kernberg's work with borderlines, the tendency of some NPDs to mellow out when they reach 50, etc. I'm explaining, albeit crudely, how people with PDs are essentially different both from normal people and people with less severe disorders.

About sociopaths in particular -- The actual diagnosis is Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD) and, briefly, people with ASPD are sometimes described either as sociopaths or psychopaths, depending on the extremeness of their behavior, with the former being more common and the latter being far worse and mercifully rare.

Children cannot be diagnosed with personality disorders because they are still developing. At grade school age, some will not yet display the the problems that will warrant a PD diagnosis later in life; and if there is abnormal behavior, it's too early to say whether it will or will not change. With ASPD in particular, the diagnosis cannot be made before age 15.

What about a 9 or 10 year old child who displays a persistent array of antisocial behavior; e.g., stealing, lying, damaging property, injuring others, and so on? A diagnosis of Conduct Disorder can be made.

All people diagnosed with Antisocial Personality Disorder have a past diagnosis of Conduct Disorder or a psychosocial history that meets the criteria for it even if it was not formally diagnosed at the time. The inverse is not true. Not all children who exhibit antisocial behavior grow up to be sociopaths. A child who lies, steals, and throws rocks through windows, or hits people may be reacting to a difficult home environment or to peer pressure, or to something else, and will give up the behaviors when the underlying problems are relieved.

So it's important when talking about Burke and SBP to keep the concepts and language sorted out and distinguish between behavior and personality. If he was engaged in coercive sexual behavior with JonBenet and smearing poop, then yes, that was antisocial behavior, but no, he didn't have Conduct Disorder. By all accounts, he was a nice kid, quiet, did well in school, had friends, and didn't get into trouble. Family friends and teachers might not have known what he was doing with his sister, but if he'd also been lying, nicking things from his friends, hurting people, or setting fires (and he would have been if he had Conduct Disorder), it would have come to light.

And no, although he may have had some serious antisocial behavior, he didn't have an antisocial personality. He was 9 going on 10, still developing. If he had been a little sociopath in the making, he'd have gone on to become a grown sociopath, and given his family's notoriety, we'd have heard about it -- JonBenet Brother Caught Cheating on Exams, 3rd DUI (assault charge, rape accusation, drug arrest, fraud indictment) for Brother of Slain Child Beauty Queen, Underage Sex Charge Raises New Questions About 1996 Christmas Murder Mystery. His family's money couldn't have protected him forever.

If Burke was suffering from SBP, he was acting out in reaction to severe anxiety, trauma, or abuse. The obsessive nature of the disorder could have made him capable of a premeditated sexual assault on JBR but almost certainly not premeditated murder. And, the disorder did not displace the rest of his psyche. He still loved his parents, still had feelings, empathy, needs, friends, limits and vulnerability, unlike sociopaths, who lack empathy, vulnerability, and regard for the rights, boundaries and well being of others pretty much 24/7.

Meara,
Thanks for your thoughtful ferocious footnote, it is an interesting read.

My understanding of Personality Disorders is based on the Five Factor Model, so alike Autism, I assume personality varies across a spectrum.

The sociopath, psychopath distinction seems to change regularly, even being conflated, I always assumed a sociopath was made, and a psychopath was born, so when I used sociopath wrt the JonBenet Case it was in a looser sense.

The following seemed to be a fair assessment of SBP:
http://www.ceasmv.ca/partners-en/the-problematic/what-are-sexual-behaviour-problems.php

Sexual behaviour problems

* These behaviours are far from healthy sexual behaviours and interfere with the child's development.

* They refer to excessive self-stimulation, exaggerated preoccupation for nudity or sexual images, touching genitals, oral-genital contacts, soliciting sexual intercourse, simulating sexual intercourse and vaginal or anal penetration

* They are highly frequent.
* They implicate children of different ages and different developmental stages.
* They involve coercion, manipulation and aggression.
* They cause emotional and physical sufferance.
* They persist despite adult intervention.

Appears quite scary stuff for a nine year old, but what do I know?

And no, although he may have had some serious antisocial behavior, he didn't have an antisocial personality. He was 9 going on 10, still developing. If he had been a little sociopath in the making, he'd have gone on to become a grown sociopath, and given his family's notoriety, we'd have heard about it -- JonBenet Brother Caught Cheating on Exams, 3rd DUI (assault charge, rape accusation, drug arrest, fraud indictment) for Brother of Slain Child Beauty Queen, Underage Sex Charge Raises New Questions About 1996 Christmas Murder Mystery. His family's money couldn't have protected him forever.

BBM: we do not know if your implication is valid since the status of the consequent is unknown.

If Burke was suffering from SBP, he was acting out in reaction to severe anxiety, trauma, or abuse. The obsessive nature of the disorder could have made him capable of a premeditated sexual assault on JBR but almost certainly not premeditated murder. And, the disorder did not displace the rest of his psyche. He still loved his parents, still had feelings, empathy, needs, friends, limits and vulnerability, unlike sociopaths, who lack empathy, vulnerability, and regard for the rights, boundaries and well being of others pretty much 24/7.

BBM: so do we know how many children exhibiting SBP have committed homicide?

I might be mistaken but I'm sure I either read or heard Kolar saying that JonBenet's death was planned?


.

 

[Meara]

UKGuy,

Thanks for your contributions. I'm glad you found the "FF" helpful.

For simplicity and clarity, I'm referencing the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM). I have no expertise in the Five Factor approach and so cannot comment from that perspective.

Many would agree with you that sociopaths are made not born, while psychopaths are born that way, not made. But, whether a person competently diagnosed is called one thing or the other, he (or she) has Antisocial Personality Disorder, which means the person's inner experience and behavior is rigid, pervasive, and does not change over time.

I emphasize this point because one pitfall of the "made not born/born not made" shorthand is to soften the definition of a sociopath, forgetting rigid/pervasive/does not change. A second pitfall, following on the first, is to forget the inevitability of the sociopath's destructiveness in relationships and in society.

I'm saying (largely in response to your "looser" terminology) a sociopath is not just a boy who does very bad things who may eventually get his life together. If he's a sociopath, sadly, he doesn't get his life together; he's not capable. If he does get his life together, he never was on a sociopathic course.

So, as to whether Burke grew up to be a sociopath: I think we can know, and he didn't. Burke did well in school, completed his degree at Purdue without complications, has stable employment commensurate with his abilities, and appears to enjoy normal activities, friendships and relationships with women. True, we can't know whether everything is as okay as it appears to be. What we do know is that over the past 20 years he has not exhibited the chronic difficulties with authorities, relationships, law enforcement, and employers typical of a sociopath, and if he were one, those difficulties would have surfaced by now because they would be inevitable. I have no doubt that any indications of abnormal behavior would have been reported in the press and certainly in the tabloids. The case still sells.

Whether Burke did or didn't grow up to be a card carrying sociopath is central to Kolar's theory. Sexual aggression against JBR can be attributed to SBP only if it does not fit a larger picture of Conduct Disorder (then) and/or Antisocial Personality Disorder (now). Children who turn out to be sociopaths have the same problems functioning normally throughout their lives. Children with SBP who receive treatment recover from the disorder. Kolar seems to think Burke had SBP and was successfully treated.

Children with SBP are capable of premeditated sexual attacks. I don't recall Kolar's saying that JBR's murder was premeditated, and I have no expertise in this area, but I'd be very surprised if he said so. If you find that statement, please do post a link. Unfortunately, I haven't had time to review everything he said.

 

[Meara]

Children cannot be diagnosed with personality disorders because they are still developing. At grade school age, some will not yet display the the problems that will warrant a PD diagnosis later in life; and if there is abnormal behavior, it's too early to say whether it will or will not change. With ASPD in particular, the diagnosis cannot be made before age 15.

Correction to my post #196 above:

This should read "With ASPD in particular, the diagnosis cannot be made before age 18."

 

[Meara]

Very well described, Meara.

Simply to clarify a couple of other points regards Kolar and his theory: Kolar carefully outlines SBP and also discusses BR’s interview with Dr. Bernhard. He does not make any claim about a sociopathic personality and references what Bernhard says about this. I asked further about indications of childhood personality disorders, and Dr. Bernhard explained that anxiety such as that displayed by Burke at points in his interview comes from caring and that this type of behavior is not typically observed in sociopathic personalities. She indicated that some of Burke’s behavior could more likely be indicative of a dysfunctional environment.

Unfortunately for the case AH allowed the family the island of privacy on medical records. Without those records, one can’t close in on a real diagnosis of SBP or any other identification of BR’s issues. So even though Kolar did his research, SBP will remain a theory.

Where Kolar’s theory becomes blurred is that in his online AMA interview Kolar states to the Reddit audience that kids have been responsible for homicides in the past. However, when one looks more closely at the interview, one can see he neatly sidesteps the question about whether there was one or two people involved in her death. He simply says it’s possible it was only one person. Because Kolar also indicates he believes the head blow occurred in the area of the kitchen, moving an unconscious child to the basement becomes problematic for BR. Utilizing his theory and juxtaposing his head blow location with the application of the ligature location, there remain still various judgments on the critical portion of the final scenario. IMO.

Thanks for all of this, qft. About SBP and the island of privacy - unfortunately, too true. Without medical records there's no proof and no other explanations or diagnoses. However, with no evidence of Conduct Disorder at the time or of sociopathy in adulthood, and few other potential explanations, we can narrow the possibilities.

One person or two? How could Burke have moved the body? - Yes, frustratingly unresolved (I've wondered whether he could have brought the blanket up to the kitchen, wrapped BR there, and used it to ease her down the stairs.). I know Kolar believes the head blow occurred in the kitchen, but don't recall why he thinks so. Did he ever say, and if so was it related to the pillow found there? TIA.