Did John Ramsey carry the body to contaminate the scene or not?

[questfortrue]

questfortrue,
That quote by Dr. Bernhard opens up a can of worms for me, since what kind of childhood personality disorder that has caring as a factor leads to premeditated homicide?

IMO Kolar's implied theory is that it all took place in the breakfast bar, and BR moved JonBenet downstairs hence the abrasions and contusions on her back, etc. This also implies a possible post-mortem sexual assault, followed by staging, e.g. size-12's, with JonBenet being left in situ, and the parents becoming engaged after an hour or so?

.

I’m clearly not able to pass judgment on Bernhard’s statements to Kolar. She examined BR once, and although her recommendation was that an additional interview of BR be arranged, somehow this second interview never occurred. Holly Smith, a supervisor with CPS, indicated there was a lot of ‘territoriality’ around this case, and CPS was sidelined.

What has always struck me is the many reports of misdiagnosis of children’s mental health situations by doctors. Beyond SBP, ADHD, autism, conduct disorders, antisocial behavior, there’s purportedly a new category being studied. It’s called callous-unemotional children or fledgling psychopathy. According to the article I’ve linked below, these children “have no emotional empathy, but they have cognitive empathy.” These children lie easily, can be exceedingly calculating and manipulative, even holding smoldering grudges like an adult. It’s still uncharted territory which those who are studying it claim will take decades to fully understand and discover how to treat. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/13/m...-year-old-a-psychopath.html?pagewanted=1&_r=3

Though I studied SBP in books and online a couple of years ago, it didn’t provide me a path to understanding a sibling intentional homicide. I only found one case of sibling sexual assault combined with homicide, but maybe there are many more cases just not in the public domain. (By 1988, the National Center for Juvenile Justice was reporting a forcible rape rate of .02 cases per 1,000 in children aged 10 and 11.*)
____________

* https://www.floridabar.org/divcom/jn/jnjournal01.nsf/Author/32E7E99ADCB3700B85256EC100747C7F

 

[questfortrue]

~RSBM~

One person or two? How could Burke have moved the body? - Yes, frustratingly unresolved (I've wondered whether he could have brought the blanket up to the kitchen, wrapped BR there, and used it to ease her down the stairs.). I know Kolar believes the head blow occurred in the kitchen, but don't recall why he thinks so. Did he ever say, and if so was it related to the pillow found there? TIA.

Sure, moving JB downstairs if she was struck on the first floor is problematic, but not impossible. Good thought on the blanket. It could’ve been a possible solution.

As for Kolar’s conclusion about the location of the head blow, perhaps there was information in that 40 page dust detective’s report which showed some fibers on her clothing reflecting she fell in some area of the kitchen. Otherwise IDK.

 

[UKGuy]

Thanks for all of this, qft. About SBP and the island of privacy - unfortunately, too true. Without medical records there's no proof and no other explanations or diagnoses. However, with no evidence of Conduct Disorder at the time or of sociopathy in adulthood, and few other potential explanations, we can narrow the possibilities.

One person or two? How could Burke have moved the body? - Yes, frustratingly unresolved (I've wondered whether he could have brought the blanket up to the kitchen, wrapped BR there, and used it to ease her down the stairs.). I know Kolar believes the head blow occurred in the kitchen, but don't recall why he thinks so. Did he ever say, and if so was it related to the pillow found there? TIA.

Meara,
He never expanded on his remarks citing the possibility of litigation, check out his interviews with Tricia on Talk Radio, they are up available for free.

The reason I partially bought into Kolar's breakfast-bar theory is that with two ponytails it appears someone had dressed JonBenet's hair. So there was more to The R's version of events than they let on, and with neither parent saying hey lets tidy up the breakfast bar suggests strongly to me it was BR not the parents who moved JonBenet down to the basement, hence the abrasions and contusions on parts of her body?

Some have suggested the pillow was used to place under a dying JonBenet's head, who knows?

Cynically I wonder if the breakfast bar scenario is simply a safe one that is consistent with events that night but allows Kolar to publish his book and his implied BDI?

.

 

[Tadpole12]

I don't recall that JK suggested premeditation?

 

[andreww]

I agree with Kolar about the breakfast bar being the starting point. The fact that fingerprint evidence shows that Burke was there, and the pineapple shows JB was there, combined with the fact that the snack was unfinished and left on the counter is a strong indication that something interrupted that meal. As to whether Patsy was there is debatable as her fingerprints are also at the scene. She may have just felt the snack area was not important enough to clean up, or she simply ran out of time tending to more important aspects of the crime.

As for Burke dragging JB to the basement by her feet, that really doesn't make sense to me. The logical method would have been to grab her from under her arms, dragging her in a sitting position. Heck Burke probably could have almost carried her. But as you say, the marks indicate she was dragged, and neither of the parents would have done that so your theory seems to make the most sense.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

One wonders whose pillow was found in the kitchen... JB's was on her bed.. so were the parents' .. B's bed photo was taken after the bed was made up though..
If it had sth to do with the murder, why was it left there during the staging anyway ?
Could it be JAR's given his duvet and sham were found elsewhere in the basement?

 

[questfortrue]

I don't recall that JK suggested premeditation?

Hey, Tad, I don’t want to steer this thread in another direction, but since the idea of premeditation was questioned, I thought I’d add my two cents.

In my understanding of the True Bills, premeditation is inherent in the accessory after the fact charge. It’s intertwined in the definition of first degree murder and differentiated from second degree murder as it contains the idea of deliberation, as well as the mental state of the actor.

Definitions for review from Colorado statutes -
18-3-102. Murder in the first degree
(1) A person commits the crime of murder in the first degree if:
After deliberation and with the intent to cause the death of a person other than himself, he causes the death of that person or of another person; or

2) Acting either alone or with one or more persons, he or she commits or attempts to commit arson, robbery, burglary, kidnapping, sexual assault as prohibited by section 18-3-402, sexual assault in the first or second degree as prohibited by section 18-3-402 or 18-3-403 as those sections existed prior to July 1, 2000, or a class 3 felony for sexual assault on a child as provided in section 18-3-405 (2), or the crime of escape as provided in section 18-8-208, and, in the course of or in furtherance of the crime that he or she is committing or attempting to commit, or of immediate flight therefrom, the death of a person, other than one of the participants, is caused by anyone; ~snip~

There’s another category of murder one which is under section (f) of the codes stating this:
(f) The person knowingly causes the death of a child who has not yet attained twelve years of age and the person committing the offense is one in a position of trust with respect to the victim.

And pertaining to sexual assault:
18-3-405. Sexual assault on a child
(1) Any actor who knowingly subjects another not his or her spouse to any sexual contact commits sexual assault on a child if the victim is less than fifteen years of age and the actor is at least four years older than the victim.

IIRC, the dream team attorneys assisting the BPD believed there was a potential felony murder charge available because of the sexual assault. However, with the issue of BR possibly involved with the paintbrush assault, the felony murder charge elevating her death to murder one could not be triggered, i.e., if using the definition of assault listed in 18-3-405.

It’s also relevant to mention second degree murder, because there is intent in both second degree murder as well as first degree murder. However, there is a nuanced difference:
18-3-103. Murder in the second degree
(1) A person commits the crime of murder in the second degree if the person knowingly causes the death of a person.

To recap. Deliberation seems an aspect of murder one which differentiates it from second degree murder -
If BR was responsible for both head blow and asphyxiation, there was a time period of 45 minutes to 2 hours between the two injuries; this was according to Kolar and Beckner the determined time frame of Dr. Rorke. This time frame was one in which BR could have fetched one of his parents to get assistance. Though, if he placed a ligature on her to disguise this as a ‘bad guy’ crime, to lift her up by the neck, or if some other reason can be given beyond intentionally asphyxiating her, then it wouldn’t be adjudged murder one in a court of law. Only the GJ found probable cause for the cover up of murder in the first degree. If BR had been responsible and old enough to be tried in court, a jury would have rendered final judgement on this, including his state of mind.

(Also, I don’t know why Beckner and Kolar who were both familiar with the GJ have different theories. According to Beckner there is just no smoking gun in this case. But if one believes one of the parents was responsible for the asphyxiation, the same logic applies. If one of the parents were responsible for the asphyxiation, there is the same time period in which they deliberated what to do and then chose to distance this crime from whomever inflicted the head blow.)

One last item I’d mention is that various states calculate deliberation in different ways. In some states deliberation may be as short a time period as a few seconds.

Kolar says in his book, "I inquired whether treatment for SBP would last a year or more. Dr. Araji indicated that it was possible, but that treatment going on for an extended period of time might be due to the involvement of some other type of behavioral disorder problem. She advised that SBP symptoms could be intermixed with other childhood behavioral disorders, thus requiring greater lengths of treatment."

On that quote, I’ll let someone else connect the dots between SBP or some other mental state and the asphyxiation​

.

 

[UKGuy]

questfortrue,

(Also, I don’t know why Beckner and Kolar who were both familiar with the GJ have different theories. According to Beckner there is just no smoking gun in this case. But if one believes one of the parents was responsible for the asphyxiation, the same logic applies. If one of the parents were responsible for the asphyxiation, there is the same time period in which they deliberated what to do and then chose to distance this crime from whomever inflicted the head blow.)

Beckner and Kolar will have different theories, simply to avoid implicating BR. Beckner likely views this as part of his legal duty, whereas Kolar has left a trail of evidence, including medical BSP issues, so he evidently feels less constrained.

Default Mark Beckner’s Q&A February 21/22, 2015

Question: What do you believe actually happened to JonBenet? Who do you think is responsible?

Answer: We know from the evidence she was hit in the head very hard with an unknown object, possibly a flashlight or similar type item. The blow knocked her into deep unconsciousness, which could have led someone to believe she was dead. The strangulation came 45 minutes to two hours after the head strike, based on the swelling on the brain. While the head wound would have eventually killed her, the strangulation actually did kill her. The rest of the scene we believe was staged, including the vaginal trauma, to make it look like a kidnapping/assault gone bad. I have avoided saying who I believe is responsible and let the facts speak for themselves. There are several viable theories.

Beckner does not elucidate why the vaginal trauma was inflicted then cleaned up along with redressing JonBenet, i.e. was this meant to represent a kidnapping/assault gone right? Given his remarks regarding several viable theories he appears happy to promote doubt.

In the period between the head blow and when the asphyxiation was applied no medical assistance was sought for JonBenet, this should tell you everything regarding her killers intent, regardless of who it was!

BDI explains a lot of things, like BR's penknife, and his footprint in the wine-cellar, something nobody seems to have wanted to follow up?

.

 

[BoldBear]

Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't the pillow in the kitchen fiction? Wasn't this pillow created by someone who misread one of the interviews with Patsy?

If not, could you please provide the reference so I can verify it myself?

I don't remember Kolar giving specifics about the reasons why he thought this happened in the kitchen. We did, however, have a report from a neighbor seeing dimmed lights and people moving around in the kitchen. There's the bowl of pineapple that Patsy wouldn't take responsibility for. A tea bag discarded in a kitchen glass. And a box of tissues that didn't belong on the breakfast room table.

Of course, we don't know how much evidence was destroyed by one of the friends who was being nice and cleaning the kitchen when it was just a kidnapping.

 

[questfortrue]

Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't the pillow in the kitchen fiction? Wasn't this pillow created by someone who misread one of the interviews with Patsy?

If not, could you please provide the reference so I can verify it myself?

I don't remember Kolar giving specifics about the reasons why he thought this happened in the kitchen. We did, however, have a report from a neighbor seeing dimmed lights and people moving around in the kitchen. There's the bowl of pineapple that Patsy wouldn't take responsibility for. A tea bag discarded in a kitchen glass. And a box of tissues that didn't belong on the breakfast room table.

Of course, we don't know how much evidence was destroyed by one of the friends who was being nice and cleaning the kitchen when it was just a kidnapping.

It was in ST's book IRMI towards the end of chapter 15: Then we showed him photos of the crime scene. “Wait,” Lee said. “The pillow in the kitchen in this picture doesn’t show up in that one. Why?” His eyebrows rose in wonder when he learned how things had been moved and how many people had trampled through the place before the photographers took their pictures. What he was viewing was not necessarily how things looked on the day of the murder. Lee said nothing but made a note.

It's been speculated in the past that the spot of blood on JB's Beauty and the Beast pillowcase was from bleeding from her nose, after the head blow. It may be that the pillow was placed under her head near the kitchen, after the head blow and later returned to her bed by someone.

 

[BoldBear]

Thanks. Did a kindle scan but completely missed the reference.

 

[johnjay]

Is Steve Thomas's book worth reading if one has read Chief Kolar's book? Does Thomas reveal clues that Kolar doesn't?

 

[BoldBear]

ST's book is a good but aggravating read. He goes into more of the politics in the BPD and DA's office during the time of the investigation. This case was blown because the BPD didn't have solid policy in place. They were supposed to be nice to everyone all the time. The DAs office wouldn't take anything to trial. They always wanted to plea everything even when they had slam-dunk cases.

I've never like the description that Boulder was a backwoods Mayberry style PD until I read this book. It still isn't an accurate description. A better description of the BPD at the time was a PD being run by a hippie activist in a college town. Just imagine Tim Matheson's Animal House character, Otter, running a police department. It didn't seem to matter if the police were actually doing their job as long as they treated everyone nice.

There are details in it that Kolar doesn't discuss.

This is my opinion, of course.

 

[johnjay]

ST's book is a good but aggravating read. He goes into more of the politics in the BPD and DA's office during the time of the investigation. This case was blown because the BPD didn't have solid policy in place. They were supposed to be nice to everyone all the time. The DAs office wouldn't take anything to trial. They always wanted to plea everything even when they had slam-dunk cases.

I've never like the description that Boulder was a backwoods Mayberry style PD until I read this book. It still isn't an accurate description. A better description of the BPD at the time was a PD being run by a hippie activist in a college town. Just imagine Tim Matheson's Animal House character, Otter, running a police department. It didn't seem to matter if the police were actually doing their job as long as they treated everyone nice.

There are details in it that Kolar doesn't discuss.

This is my opinion, of course.

Thanks for the info. I'll try to check it out for the details Kolar doesn't discuss.

 

[Sunshine4Me]

LinasK,
Brand New, Not Washed? Probably, but guess what: Patsy was asked during the Atlanta Interview if she had ever washed the size-12's since giving them to JonBenet, I think Patsy replied with ramnesia.

Surely only IDI think the touch-dna on the size-12's has any relevance. Also the size-12's the R's handed back should surley have matching touch-dna on the seam also. Lets assume its from the person's thumb or finger as they machine stitch the seam to the pants?

.

I had an IDI tell me the DNA in the size 12's matched DNA on the long johns and under the fingernails. I can't find any reliable source to corroborate them, have you heard this before or do you think the IDI is full of it? I'm RDI, and even if what the IDI said were true, I would think the DNA got under her nails innocently and she spread it herself to the long johns and size 12's while going to the bathroom. That would mean she'd worn the size 12's before, maybe even that day. If it were just on the long johns and size 12's I would think someone helped her in the bathroom and left DNA that way. But I still can't ignore all the things that point to the family, so if they were a match it would have to be an innocent explanation. Was that just an IDI rumor or is there truth to it?

 

[reintarnation]

I had an IDI tell me the DNA in the size 12's matched DNA on the long johns and under the fingernails. I can't find any reliable source to corroborate them, have you heard this before or do you think the IDI is full of it? I'm RDI, and even if what the IDI said were true, I would think the DNA got under her nails innocently and she spread it herself to the long johns and size 12's while going to the bathroom. That would mean she'd worn the size 12's before, maybe even that day. If it were just on the long johns and size 12's I would think someone helped her in the bathroom and left DNA that way. But I still can't ignore all the things that point to the family, so if they were a match it would have to be an innocent explanation. Was that just an IDI rumor or is there truth to it?

IIRC, the DNA sources referenced are unidentified, but that doesn't mean they match each other (someone may still want to double check this - I don't have a source at hand).

The DNA from the fingernail clippings is questionable and includes several different profiles. The ME used the same clippers for all ten of JBR's fingers, and the protocol is to use a different, sterilized pair for each. The ME admitted that the clippers had been used on previous bodies without sterilization in between.

My general understanding of the DNA evidence is that it is unfortunately weak. IIRC, even what Mary Lacy used to publicly clear the R's was a partial match to them but too inconclusive to say for certain.

Had the biological evidence been better and the crime scene not contaminated as it was, this case is much more likely to have been solved by now and explains how money, attorneys, and politics has had such a huge influence on the outcome. It's one of the most frustrating aspects, IMO!

 

[otg]

I had an IDI tell me the DNA in the size 12's matched DNA on the long johns and under the fingernails. I can't find any reliable source to corroborate them, have you heard this before or do you think the IDI is full of it? I'm RDI, and even if what the IDI said were true, I would think the DNA got under her nails innocently and she spread it herself to the long johns and size 12's while going to the bathroom. That would mean she'd worn the size 12's before, maybe even that day. If it were just on the long johns and size 12's I would think someone helped her in the bathroom and left DNA that way. But I still can't ignore all the things that point to the family, so if they were a match it would have to be an innocent explanation. Was that just an IDI rumor or is there truth to it?

The degraded DNA under her fingernails was different from the longjohns/panties. Left and right hands were different from one another and also contained a female's DNA which could have been JonBenet's. But again, it was too degraded to know with certainty. Also, just to note: An indication that she didn't create "fingernail gouges" on her neck (as some have speculated) is the fact that the DNA collected under her fingernails was degraded.

Definitive thread on DNA is on our sister-site (credit to cynic):
http://www.forumsforjustice.org/for...NA-revisited-in-light-of-James-Kolar%92s-book

 

[Tadpole12]

DNA revisited in light of James Kolar’s book/cynic

There are six unique and unidentified genetic profiles – five male profiles and one female profile.
DNA testing involving fingernail scrapings from both hands revealed JonBenet’s genetic profile on both sides.
In addition to JonBenet’s profile, scrapings from the left fingernails revealed unidentified male #1
The right fingernails indicated that two further unique profiles were present, unidentified male #2, and a unique unknown female profile. (JonBenet could not be excluded as a contributor)
The waistband, seams, and crotch of panties (Distal Stain 007-2) CODIS all matched and produced the profile that has been entered into the CODIS database, unidentified male #3 (Strength/weakness of profile: 10 markers)

The above profiles were determined through typical STR DNA testing.
Touch DNA (TDNA) testing, all presumably done at the Bode facility revealed one matching profile and a further two unique profiles, both male:
TDNA on the waistband of leggings matching DS 007-2 male #3
TDNA on the wrist bindings – male #4 (Strength/weakness of profile: 6 markers)
TDNA on the “garrote” – male #5 (Strength/weakness of profile: 7 markers)

(Also, TDNA on the pink Barbie nightgown found in the Wine Cellar with the body of JonBenét was identified as belonging to BR and PR.)

​

 

[UKGuy]

I had an IDI tell me the DNA in the size 12's matched DNA on the long johns and under the fingernails. I can't find any reliable source to corroborate them, have you heard this before or do you think the IDI is full of it? I'm RDI, and even if what the IDI said were true, I would think the DNA got under her nails innocently and she spread it herself to the long johns and size 12's while going to the bathroom. That would mean she'd worn the size 12's before, maybe even that day. If it were just on the long johns and size 12's I would think someone helped her in the bathroom and left DNA that way. But I still can't ignore all the things that point to the family, so if they were a match it would have to be an innocent explanation. Was that just an IDI rumor or is there truth to it?

Sunshine4Me,
It matched the touch-dna on the long johns that's it. What IDI doesn't tell you is if any other Ramsey's DNA was on either the size-12's or the long johns.

Not being told suggests it was. Also I note nobody answered or commented on the size-12's returned, I'll just repeat if you tested those they might also have touch-dna matching that of the size-12's found on JonBenet?

If the returned size-12's all had matching touch-dna different from that found on JonBenet you can infer that they were a replacement set?

.

 

[Tadpole12]

so if you make the assumption that she was pantyless for the initial sexual assault, were the right sized panties and pink nightgown part of the original redress?