Did John Ramsey carry the body to contaminate the scene or not?

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves

Did John Ramsey knowingly try to contaminate the scene by carrying JonBenet upstairs?

  • Yes, he did try to handle the body to contaminate the scene.

    Votes: 122 53.5%
  • No, he did not think him handling the body would contaminate the scene.

    Votes: 20 8.8%
  • no, it was a natural reaction for a father

    Votes: 39 17.1%
  • He wanted the body discovered.

    Votes: 47 20.6%

  • Total voters
    228
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

:eek:hwow:
Does no one else see the significance of these photos Cottonstar posted? I've never seen them before Cottonstar shared them and they show what we've only speculated about before. Has anyone else seen a photo that clearly shows the wall outlet configuration in this room?

I think this proves that John Ramsey went into the WC after Fleet White had searched for JonBenet that morning. I don't know if Fleet White figured it out, but I think that's one of the things he was puzzled about enough to go back to this room after Arndt told him to guard the stairway.

Anyone else see it?
 
I think it was the final act in some sick ritual, something he had to do. I have no basis for this other than just how creepy I think Jonbenet's parents were and what was possibly behind her murder? I apologize if I am not allowed to post this.

The only thing I was ever sure of about this case is that no one snuck in and killed her.
 
:eek:hwow:
Does no one else see the significance of these photos Cottonstar posted? I've never seen them before Cottonstar shared them and they show what we've only speculated about before. Has anyone else seen a photo that clearly shows the wall outlet configuration in this room?

I think this proves that John Ramsey went into the WC after Fleet White had searched for JonBenet that morning. I don't know if Fleet White figured it out, but I think that's one of the things he was puzzled about enough to go back to this room after Arndt told him to guard the stairway.

Anyone else see it?

I see it and think it's a brilliant 'catch' on the part of Cottonstar. (How long have we heard that JR only happened to find her at 11 am or 1 pm?!) There was a reason FW couldn't figure out how to turn on the wc lights.
 
I see it and think it's a brilliant 'catch' on the part of Cottonstar. (How long have we heard that JR only happened to find her at 11 am or 1 pm?!) There was a reason FW couldn't figure out how to turn on the wc lights.

Can someone please explain? Maybe I haven't had enough coffee this morning
 
UK,

I disagree.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Cottonstar,
No problem, I've been known to disagree with myself.

So what evidence can you present that demonstrates JonBenet was sexually assaulted or actually killed in the basement, since most of what I have seen simply supports the staging.

I've hinted many times about JR's presience and his repeated adavancement of explanations prior to their requirement, suggesting the case is JDI, with Patsy helping fabricate the basement staging?

.
 
Cottonstar,
No problem, I've been known to disagree with myself.

So what evidence can you present that demonstrates JonBenet was sexually assaulted or actually killed in the basement, since most of what I have seen simply supports the staging.

I've hinted many times about JR's presience and his repeated adavancement of explanations prior to their requirement, suggesting the case is JDI, with Patsy helping fabricate the basement staging?

.

Not Cottonstar, but everything I have read says the final strangulation was done outside the WC door on the piece of carpet. That piece of carpet was urine stained and they believed that was where she was strangled and her urine let go. Then she was moved into the WC
 
It looks like Fleet White knowing JBR is in the winecellar pushed JR to go and check if the body is there.

It is a matter of context and theory used.

The world is not "yin" and "yang".
 
:eek:hwow:
Does no one else see the significance of these photos Cottonstar posted? I've never seen them before Cottonstar shared them and they show what we've only speculated about before. Has anyone else seen a photo that clearly shows the wall outlet configuration in this room?

I think this proves that John Ramsey went into the WC after Fleet White had searched for JonBenet that morning. I don't know if Fleet White figured it out, but I think that's one of the things he was puzzled about enough to go back to this room after Arndt told him to guard the stairway.

Anyone else see it?

otg,
Around one in the afternoon, Boulder police detective Linda Arndt suggested that Fleet take John Ramsey around the house to see if they'd missed anything, probably just to give the anxious father something to do.

After inspecting several rooms in the basement, Ramsey headed toward a storage room known as the wine cellar.

It was a door Fleet had opened on his earlier tour, but he hadn't found a light switch and hadn't gone inside.

Moving a few feet and seconds ahead of Fleet, Ramsey opened the door and snapped on the light.

Oh, my God," he said. "Oh, my God.

Inside The Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas
Fleet White ... pulled the door open, roward him. It was totally dark inside, and when he could find neither of two light switches, he closed the door, relatched it, and went back upstairs. He never saw JonBenet.

Perfect Murder Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller
The police wondered why White had not seen JonBenet's body and Later Ramsey had, since they both stood at the same spot after opening the door to the wine-cellar.
All answers on a postcard to John Ramsey's optician, as John Ramsey has an eyesight medical condition resulting in eyesight inferior to that of Fleet White.

Jameson says that John and Patsy Ramsey told her that Fleet White had gone to get wine in the wine cellar room during the party on December 23, so he was familiar with that room.
Really, or did PR tell Jameson to post this and email BPD from becknerbpd@hotmail.com, LOL?

Pasty stops short of saying Fleet White fetched abottle of wine from the wine-cellar - 1998 BPD Interview, Excerpt
TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.

12 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay. You know, it wasn't

13 like a full-blown wine cellar, but we kept a couple

14 boxes of wine in there. And I want to say that -- I

15 don't remember whether it was the night of the 23rd,

16 that party or some party we had, I remember somebody

17 saying we are out of red wine. And I said please

18 (inaudible) to or something. But at some time, please

19 go to the basement to get some more red wine, but he

20 would know where that was.

21 TOM HANEY: Okay.
NE Book Page 134, Excerpt
Tom Trujillo: "John, when you went down in the basement the first time and found the broken window, it was unlocked, you latched it. Did you notice if the room was overly cold or anything like that?"

John Ramsey: "No, it wasn't. I didn't notice that it was."

Tom Trujillo: "Okay. And you were fully dressed when you went through the house?"

John Ramsey: "Yeah, I'm sure I was, yeah."

Tom Trujillo: "You remember any lights on in the basement when you went down the first time?"

John Ramsey: "Ah, no, not specifically I don't. I mean, I don't remember if any were on the first time."

Tom Trujillo: "Do you remember turning on lights?"

John Ramsey: "Well, I would have had to see my way around. I'm sure I did."

Tom Trujillo: "John, would you be willing to come back at a later date, time, to help us with this, go over anything else we need to go over?"

John Ramsey: "I think, hopefully, we've given you every piece of information that we have, and will certainly continue to do so."

A&E's Bill Curtis is touring the then unremodeled house with Dave Williams, Hal Haddon PI. They go into the wine cellar, now blocked off due to the remodeling.
You see them opening the door to the wine cellar, and it's pretty dak in there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QofH2gBtC6A

Have You Seen This Man
Last Name: RAMSEY
First Name: JOHNNY
Middle Name: B
Specific address not subject to disclosure
Description Offenses Scars/Marks/Tattoos Known Aliases
Last Known Address: 92243
County: IMPERIAL
Zip Code 92243
Date of Birth: 06-21-1959
Sex: MALE
Height: 5'9"
Weight: 186
Eye Color: BROWN
Hair Color: BROWN
Ethnicity: WHITE
Offense Code Description: 290(a)(2)(D) OUT OF STATE REGISTRATION REQUIRED
None
None
THE REGISTRANT MAY HAVE SUBSEQUENTLY RELOCATED
http://www.meganslaw.ca.gov/

I'm not sure whether Fleet White tried to switch the lights on and failed, or he could not find them?

If you can place JR in the wine-cellar after Fleet White that morning then IMO its a smoking gun!

.
 
(Sort of mentioned above )
What other vision problems did John have that were beyond the typical 53 yr old vision issues? Thanks in advance.
 
(rsbm)
I'm not sure whether Fleet White tried to switch the lights on and failed, or he could not find them?

If you can place JR in the wine-cellar after Fleet White that morning then IMO its a smoking gun!
Bingo, my friend!
 
Perhaps if I explain what Cottonstar’s photos show (about which had previously only been speculated) and explain how the electricity worked, this will make more sense and what this proves will become more apparent to everyone.

I hadn’t seen, and I don’t think anyone else had seen, enough detail in photos to know for sure where the wall switch was or that there was a second switch somewhere else in the room. Look at the photo showing the light switch just inside the door. Think about where you instinctively look for a light switch when you open the door going into a room. Without thinking, you would expect the switch to be just inside the doorway on the opposite side of the door hinges -- exactly where the WC light switch is. Rooms are intentionally designed that way. (Exceptions occur because of conflicts.) Beyond the fact that this light switch is exactly where it would be expected, when the door is open there should be enough light from outside for Fleet White to have been able to see it.

The electricity comes into the room at the ceiling and goes down to this light switch. From there another electrical wire comes out of the switch and goes up the side of the door to the ceiling, over the door, around the inside of the corner, across the wall a bit, and then down the wall to another switch with two outlet boxes attached. Anything needing electricity would have to be plugged into one of those outlets and both switches would have to be turned on. The fluorescent light in the WC was plugged into this outlet.

Think about this and what has been written about Fleet White’s actions and John Ramsey’s statements. When you figure it out, it all makes sense and it proves (most likely) that Ramsey went into that room and turned on the light after White was there and before JonBenet’s body was “discovered” after 1:00 pm.

If no one else figures it out and posts it, I’ll explain it in another post.



This might help. Here is a post from the past where I had speculated on what Cottonstar's photos show (I was incorrect in guessing that there was conduit):
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/s...tcase-in-the-basement&p=12871583#post12871583
 
Perhaps if I explain what Cottonstar’s photos show (about which had previously only been speculated) and explain how the electricity worked, this will make more sense and what this proves will become more apparent to everyone.

I hadn’t seen, and I don’t think anyone else had seen, enough detail in photos to know for sure where the wall switch was or that there was a second switch somewhere else in the room. Look at the photo showing the light switch just inside the door. Think about where you instinctively look for a light switch when you open the door going into a room. Without thinking, you would expect the switch to be just inside the doorway on the opposite side of the door hinges -- exactly where the WC light switch is. Rooms are intentionally designed that way. (Exceptions occur because of conflicts.) Beyond the fact that this light switch is exactly where it would be expected, when the door is open there should be enough light from outside for Fleet White to have been able to see it.

The electricity comes into the room at the ceiling and goes down to this light switch. From there another electrical wire comes out of the switch and goes up the side of the door to the ceiling, over the door, around the inside of the corner, across the wall a bit, and then down the wall to another switch with two outlet boxes attached. Anything needing electricity would have to be plugged into one of those outlets and both switches would have to be turned on. The fluorescent light in the WC was plugged into this outlet.

Think about this and what has been written about Fleet White’s actions and John Ramsey’s statements. When you figure it out, it all makes sense and it proves (most likely) that Ramsey went into that room and turned on the light after White was there and before JonBenet’s body was “discovered” after 1:00 pm.

If no one else figures it out and posts it, I’ll explain it in another post.



This might help. Here is a post from the past where I had speculated on what Cottonstar's photos show (I was incorrect in guessing that there was conduit):
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/s...tcase-in-the-basement&p=12871583#post12871583

otg,
Yes, all that makes sense to me, although it appears singularity seems to have left us, so does not benefit from you reducing the complexity of the light switch issue.

Common sense tells us the light switch was working when JR found JonBenet, so if it was not working when Fleet White flipped the switch, then the power was attenuated elsewhere, e.g. the other outlet which acts as a power isolater?

So assuming you are correct then is this the real reason why Fleet White returned downstairs, e.g. he knew the light swich was inoperative when he first visited, so wanted to try it out again?

Fleet White cannot infer it was JR who switched the power back on, he only knows it was JR who found JonBenet?

Yet members at Websleuths are at liberty to make that inference since we know JR has many and varied explanations for stuff down in the basement, particularly versions of events that travel back in time to explain away forensic evidence, e.g. the suitcase or the broken window, or the clever intruder and the chair?

We can ask the question why, and I reckon its because JR moved JonBenet to the wine-cellar later that morning hence the blanket and the power being switched on !

You need Fleet White to say he flipped the switch, it never worked, so he relatched the door and moved on.

Put bluntly you have a JDI that offers an explanation for Fleet White's behaviour, since we know that JR was ignorant about Fleet White visiting the wine-cellar, prior to allegedlly putting JonBenet into the wine-cellar.

All this stuff about chairs and opening doors, etc, reminds me of Mony Hall on the game show Let's Make a Deal.

.
 
otg,
Yes, all that makes sense to me, although it appears singularity seems to have left us, so does not benefit from you reducing the complexity of the light switch issue.

Common sense tells us the light switch was working when JR found JonBenet, so if it was not working when Fleet White flipped the switch, then the power was attenuated elsewhere, e.g. the other outlet which acts as a power isolater?

So assuming you are correct then is this the real reason why Fleet White returned downstairs, e.g. he knew the light swich was inoperative when he first visited, so wanted to try it out again?

Fleet White cannot infer it was JR who switched the power back on, he only knows it was JR who found JonBenet?

Yet members at Websleuths are at liberty to make that inference since we know JR has many and varied explanations for stuff down in the basement, particularly versions of events that travel back in time to explain away forensic evidence, e.g. the suitcase or the broken window, or the clever intruder and the chair?

We can ask the question why, and I reckon its because JR moved JonBenet to the wine-cellar later that morning hence the blanket and the power being switched on !

You need Fleet White to say he flipped the switch, it never worked, so he relatched the door and moved on.

Put bluntly you have a JDI that offers an explanation for Fleet White's behaviour, since we know that JR was ignorant about Fleet White visiting the wine-cellar, prior to allegedlly putting JonBenet into the wine-cellar.

All this stuff about chairs and opening doors, etc, reminds me of Mony Hall on the game show Let's Make a Deal.

.

Everything I have read FW said he could not find the light switch. I have never read that he found it but it was not working? I guess copy and paste doesn't work but you can see this quote on acandyrose website that he could not locate the light switch
upstairs."
 
Everything I have read FW said he could not find the light switch. I have never read that he found it but it was not working? I guess copy and paste doesn't work but you can see this quote on acandyrose website that he could not locate the light switch
upstairs."

kaykay543,
Yes, I agree. That's pretty much where I was when I read otg's prior speculation on this subject.

Also, we do not know what Fleet White really said in his interviews, we only know whats been published in books, and if Fleet White ever said he flipped the switch then its maybe privileged information, so subsequent reports have been modified or tweaked, e.g. could not find?

What otg and Cottonstar were discussing is an explanation for anomalous behaviour on Fleet White's behalf, its consistent with assuming JR played a major role in the staging and events throughout that morning.

If you do not think JR assisted in the post-mortem staging then its of little consequence.

Personally I reckon its another brick in the JDI wall, its makes it just that more credible. A previous member singularity never liked this kind of speculation, since its not based on firm evidence.

Still it might fly?

.
 
(I'm so reassured we have smart people here at WS.)


For reference, I’ll include at the end of this post the information we have (on record) relating to the light switch. It’s not necessary to read it all, but it’s there in case you want to read it. Here though is what I think happened that explains the confusion about the WC light based on what we now know:

Shortly after he arrived at the Ramsey house, Fleet White started looking through the basement trying to find JonBenet. White is a smart man. When he tried to open the WC door, he saw it was blocked by the piece of wood at the top and he turned it so the door could be opened. Knowing now where it is, I can’t believe that White couldn’t see or find the light switch just inside the door of the WC. I think after he opened the door, he found the switch and flipped it on but it didn’t turn on the light because the outlet switch was turned off. There were screens and boxes all over the room (you’ve seen the pictures) and the outlet was probably partially obscured and not visible in the darkened room. Maybe he flipped the switch on and off again with no result. I don’t know if her body was in the room at that time or if it was in a different location within the room. Maybe it too was obscured by some of the clutter in the room. In any event, seeing no exit from the room other than that door, he dismissed the thought that she might be in there in the dark. (Remember that because of a recent incident with his own daughter, he thought JonBenet might be hiding somewhere as a prank.) When he left, he closed the door and turned the wooden block back to lock the door as it was before he opened it.

Later in the morning, John Ramsey sneaked off from the others and went to this room. He knew that to turn on the light in that room, both switches had to be turned on. So he turned on the light and maybe moved the body closer to the door. Whatever he did while he was in there, he had to have turned on the light (turning on both switches). When he left, he turned the light off only at the light switch at the door. He didn’t know until his first interview with investigators in 1997 that White had been in the basement by himself before he was there. At first he told them he (Ramsey) was there “probably before 10 o’clock.” After he had learned White had been there, he tried to shave that time frame down in his 1998 interview by saying it was much earlier -- before 7:30 at first, and then agreeing to “before eight o’clock” at Lou Smit’s suggestion. (Linda Arndt said he went missing after the 10 o'clock deadline had come and gone.)

So Ramsey was the last person in the WC until Detective Arndt sent him and White to search for anything “out of place.” While White was looking at the broken window in the basement, Ramsey went to the WC, unlatched the door, opened it, and saw JonBenet’s body before flipping on the switch at the door. To White’s surprise (I imagine), when Ramsey flipped the switch, the fluorescent light lying on the bookshelf brackets came on. He probably didn’t give it that much thought at the time because of the panic in Ramsey’s voice, but later I imagine he couldn’t figure out why that same switch he had found earlier didn’t turn on the light for him but worked for Ramsey.

Most accounts of what White did that morning when he went on his own to the basement say that “he couldn’t find the light switch.” Knowing now where it was makes that implausible. Instead I think he told investigators that he “couldn’t find the switch that turned on the light.” When his statement was written by investigators and then passed on to reporters, book writers, or anyone else, I believe his words were shortened to say simply that he couldn’t find the light switch.




:lookingitup:

Bonita Papers (source used for ACR quotes):
Within minutes of arriving at the Ramsey home, Fleet decided to look around the house. His own daughter had been missing a few months ago, and after the police were called they found her hiding under her bed. Fleet was hoping that JonBenet too was just hiding somewhere in the house. Since everyone had been told by the police officers not to go upstairs, Fleet went town to the basement. He noticed that the lights were on. He found a small piece of glass from a broken window in a room used for model trains. In checking the latch for the window he discovered that it was unlocked, but closed. Fleet also noticed a blue suitcase was sitting underneath the window. He continued with his search by opening every cupboard and door. He opened the door to the wine cellar, reached inside, but could not find the light switch and could not see inside the room. The wind cellar is completely formed by cement and has no windows. Finding no evidence of anyone entering or leaving from the basement area and no trace of JonBenet, Fleet went back upstairs.

...and:
While Fleet was still checking other closets, John walked to the wine cellar and tried to pull open the door. Because the top latch was secured, the door would not open. John reached up, undid the latch, and opened the door. Fleet, who was about 20 feet away, heard John exclaim, "Oh my God, oh my God," and went running to the room where John was standing. As Fleet approached the door, John flipped on the wine cellar light switch. Fleet saw the body of JonBenet laying on the floor.

John said he saw the white blanket on the floor as soon as he opened the door, and when the lights came on he saw his daughter laying on the blanket.

...and:
The team now concentrated on the wine cellar. Two light switches were located for this room one on the inside east wall 5 feet above the floor level, and the other on the west wall 2 feet above the floor level and 2 feet inside the doorway. Polaroid photos were taken before any of the investigators entered the room. Unfortunately, other officers had tromped through the room immediately after discovery of the body in making their own inspection of the crime scene. Even Fleet admitted that he had returned to the room twice. These actions would hamper the gathering of reliable evidence as the investigation progressed.


PMPT:
After he left the train room, he turned right, into the boiler room. At the back of the room, he said, he saw a door to what the Ramseys called the wine cellar. He turned the closed wooden latch and opened the door. The room was pitch-black, he said. He didn’t enter, and he saw nothing. When he couldn’t find a light switch, he closed the door and went back upstairs. He did not remember whether or not he relatched the door. Later, when White saw John Fernie, he told him that a window downstairs had been punched open. The police wondered why White had not seen JonBenét’s body and later Ramsey had, since they both stood at the same spot after opening the door to the wine cellar.

...and:
After they had washed the windows, Hoffmann-Pugh and her daughter started searching the house for the missing trees. She saw a closed door in the basement just past the boiler room, which she had never noticed before. She tried to open the door, but it was stuck shut, apparently from a recent painting. She pulled at it hard and the door finally opened. Feeling around in the dark, she found a light switch on the wall to her right.


IRMI:
Moving deeper into the basement, he found the same white door that had been checked by Sergeant Reichenbach. Fleet White turned the makeshift latch and pulled the door open, toward him. It was totally dark inside, and when he could find neither of two light switches, he closed the door, relatched it, and went back upstairs. He never saw JonBenét.


FF:
White then moved from the Train Room to the white door of the Wine Cellar and, unlatching the wood block, partially opened the door to that room. Unable to locate a light switch for the windowless room, White failed to see a blanket on the floor that wrapped the body of JonBenét.


...and:
He then moved out of the Train Room, and down a short, dead-end hallway to a storage room that would later be identified as the Wine Cellar. A block of wood rotated on a screw to secure the door to this room, and he reportedly “unlocked” the door and peered inside. It was pitch black inside the windowless room, and unable to find a light switch, he closed the door and secured it with the wood block.

...and:
John also provided specific details about immediately observing a white blanket, and his daughter’s body upon opening the cellar room door that afternoon. He reported that he saw the white blanket, in which JonBenét was wrapped, the “instant” he opened the door of the Wine Cellar. This observation purportedly took place before he flipped on the light switch.

This didn’t jive with details provided by Fleet White during his interviews with detectives. White had opened the cellar door earlier that morning and reported that it was too dark to see anything without a light being turned on in the room. He had stepped partially through the door and couldn’t find a light switch, let alone see the blanket and body.

...and:
Continuing his exploration of the basement, White unlatched a door and briefly looked in the darkened room identified as the Wine Cellar. Unable to find a light switch and not seeing anything in the dark, he closed the door and returned upstairs.


1997 Interview:
ST: And Fleet had talked about earlier being down there, I think alone at one point, and discovering that window. When you say that you found it earlier that day and latched it, at what time of day was that?
JR: I don’t know. I mean it would have been probably, probably before 10 o’clock.
ST: Was that prior to Fleet’s first trip down?
JR: I didn’t know he was in the basement. I didn’t know that. I mean other than that trip with me.
ST: And on the trip that you latched the window, were you alone when you went down and latched the window?
JR: Yep.
ST: And on this, what I’m assuming is only your second trip to the basement on the 26[SUP]th[/SUP] with Fleet, how much time did you spend in the basement before moving to the cellar room door?
JR: Not very much time. A minute maybe, or less, probably less than that.
ST: And when you moved to that cellar room door to open the door, did you move the tag on the top of the door?
JR: Yeah.
ST: And did you open the door?
JR: Yeah.
ST: And did you open the door?
JR: Uh-huh.
ST: And was the light on or off?
ST: I think it was off.
ST: And did you turn the light on?
JR: Probably, I don’t remember specifically turning it on, but probably would have, it’s a dark room.
ST: From the time you opened the door of the cellar room, when did you discovered your daughter, was this a fraction of a second or a matter of seconds, give me an idea.
JR: Instant. I mean, as soon as I opened the door I saw the white blanket. And I knew, I just saw a blanket, and I knew that was our, you know.
ST: and was it then you instantaneously opened the door, saw the blanket, you may or may not have turned the light on?
JR: Uh-huh.
ST: You don’t know? In all fairness.
JR: In fact, I don’t remember.


1998 Interview:
8 LOU SMIT: And you don't know if you were
9 the first one down there?
10 JOHN RAMSEY: I thought I -- Well the police,
11 they probably went through the house a bit. I
12 don't know where they went. I heard later that
13 Fleet White claimed he went through the basement
14 alone. I don't know if that was before or after I
15 did alone.
16 LOU SMIT: That's why we're trying to
17 determine your time. If you can get that down.
18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I wish I can tell
19 you precisely, but it had to be -- you see I think
20 when the first uniformed officer came, French, he
21 very quickly said, I want all you people in the
22 room, and then people started showing in this
23 room, which was the solarium where he talked, is
24 the solarium.
25 And then some other officers came and I my
0281
1 impression at that time was that they did a
2 cursory check of the house. One of the uniformed
3 house went through the house. That had been fairly
4 early.
5 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)
6 JOHN RAMSEY: We don't. I think it's between
7 6:00 and 6:30. So that person should have been the
8 first one to go through the house.
9 I went in the basement, certainly before we were
10 getting ready for the call. (INAUDIBLE) until
11 eight, so that would have been eight o'clock. So
12 we were preparing for that. By 7:30, let's say,
13 and Fleet and I were talking about what we were
14 going to say.
15 LOU SMIT: Would that have been before
16 then or after?
17 JOHN RAMSEY: It would have been before
18 then I believe.
19 LOU SMIT: So it was before eight o'clock?
20 JOHN RAMSEY: That's right. (INAUDIBLE) I'm
21 trying to reconstruct in it my mind.

 
Ramsey stuck to his original story of seeing the girl’s body “clearly and instantly” when he opened the cellar door and for the first time said he did not turn on the light. Our tests and the testimony of Fleet White had convinced us that it was impossible to see anything in the darkness, particularly when the view was blocked by a jutting interior corner.
ST: IRMI

Now, after ‘ahem’ seeing her instantly JR had to hit the light by the door in order to light the room and remove the tape from her mouth and untie/remove one of the wrist ligatures.

Anyway, here’s a couple of additional photos to further illuminate (bad pun :)) the discussion.

Photo 1 - Looking into the wc is Bill Kurtis who was the reporter on the A&E program JonBenet: Anatomy of an Investigation. Kurtis is very tall like FW, btw.

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Photo 2 - Looking into the wc one will note the amount of junk in front of the wall switch.

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otg,
Thats a neat compilation of quotes, no mean feat. I'm with you on this aspect, principally because Fleet White has remained silent all these years and patently considers JR's account of finding JonBenet closer to magic than serendipity.

Wine-Cellar Switching Box
base5.gif



quotes to consider:
NE Book Page 134: Excerpt
Tom Trujillo: "John, when you went down in the basement the first time and found the broken window, it was unlocked, you latched it. Did you notice if the room was overly cold or anything like that?"

John Ramsey: "No, it wasn't. I didn't notice that it was."

Tom Trujillo: "Okay. And you were fully dressed when you went through the house?"

John Ramsey: "Yeah, I'm sure I was, yeah."
So its after JR reads the ransom note and has dressed himself, and has fibers to deposit.


When you say that you found it earlier that day and latched it, at what time of day was that?

JR: I don’t know. I mean it would have been probably, probably before 10 o’clock.

ST: Was that prior to Fleet’s first trip down?
JR: I didn’t know he was in the basement. I didn’t know that. I mean other than that trip with me.
BBM: note, no ramnesia.

JR: Probably, I don’t remember specifically turning it on, but probably would have, it’s a dark room.
ramnesia, i.e. you know something is up.

JOHN RAMSEY: I thought I -- Well the police,
11 they probably went through the house a bit. I
12 don't know where they went. I heard later that
13 Fleet White claimed he went through the basement
14 alone. I don't know if that was before or after I
15 did alone.
BBM: nicee, JR tells us he goes it alone to the basement, just like Fleet White, but he does not know the time-frame, contrast that with his ramnesia above !

John Ramsey : I went in the basement, certainly before we were
10 getting ready for the call.
no ramnesia, just certainty.

LOU SMIT: So it was before eight o'clock?
20 JOHN RAMSEY: That's right. (INAUDIBLE) I'm
21 trying to reconstruct in it my mind.
ramnesia strikes again, failure to reconstruct offers a viable excuse if he gets the timing wrong.

At first he told them he (Ramsey) was there “probably before 10 o’clock.” After he had learned White had been there, he tried to shave that time frame down in his 1998 interview by saying it was much earlier -- before 7:30 at first, and then agreeing to “before eight o’clock” at Lou Smit’s suggestion. (Linda Arndt said he went missing after the 10 o'clock deadline had come and gone.)
mmmm, delicious stuff as JR does not know when to say he was alone in the basement.

Also JR says he had to move a chair from the train room doorway on his trip to the basement that morning. Unfortunately, he said it before he knew a policeman and Fleet White had been to the basement before him and saw no chair in the doorway.

So patently JR gets the guessing game wrong, we know because the forensic evidence says so.

Does anyone know why it is important when JR first visited the basement, since he claims to have done it alone.

Everytime I look at the trainroom photographs and think about JR's apparently ad-hoc explanations I always end up with a prior staging scenario, i.e. one dismantled by JR along with additional information why the scene is now as it is, e.g. JR: I brought JAR's suitcase down from his bedroom.

On his first visit Fleet White moved this suitcase and placed a shard of glass on it.
Foam packing material (Peanuts) were found about the samsonite suitcase.

On Sunday, Smit told The Denver Post that a small piece of a foam packing material found near JonBenét's body was likely dragged in by the killer who got into the home through the basement window.

Jameson says that John and Patsy Ramsey told her that Fleet White had gone to get wine in the wine cellar room during the party on December 23, so he was familiar with that room.

1998 BPD Interview, Excerpt
TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.

12 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay. You know, it wasn't

13 like a full-blown wine cellar, but we kept a couple

14 boxes of wine in there. And I want to say that -- I

15 don't remember whether it was the night of the 23rd,

16 that party or some party we had, I remember somebody

17 saying we are out of red wine. And I said please

18 (inaudible) to or something. But at some time, please

19 go to the basement to get some more red wine, but he

20 would know where that was.

21 TOM HANEY: Okay.
Did Fleet White ever fetch a bottle of wine from the wine-cellar, if he did then he knows where the light switch is?

BPD will have put this question to Fleet White and he will have answered.

Days earlier the housekeeper LHP and her daughter had no problem locating the light switch when asked to fetch something by PR.

When Fleet White says he could not find the light switch he is not saying which one !

.
 
otg,
Thats a neat compilation of quotes, no mean feat. I'm with you on this aspect, principally because Fleet White has remained silent all these years and patently considers JR's account of finding JonBenet closer to magic than serendipity.

Wine-Cellar Switching Box
cache.php



quotes to consider:
NE Book Page 134: Excerpt

So its after JR reads the ransom note and has dressed himself, and has fibers to deposit.



BBM: note, no ramnesia.


ramnesia, i.e. you know something is up.


BBM: nicee, JR tells us he goes it alone to the basement, just like Fleet White, but he does not know the time-frame, contrast that with his ramnesia above !


no ramnesia, just certainty.


ramnesia strikes again, failure to reconstruct offers a viable excuse if he gets the timing wrong.


mmmm, delicious stuff as JR does not know when to say he was alone in the basement.

Also JR says he had to move a chair from the train room doorway on his trip to the basement that morning. Unfortunately, he said it before he knew a policeman and Fleet White had been to the basement before him and saw no chair in the doorway.

So patently JR gets the guessing game wrong, we know because the forensic evidence says so.

Does anyone know why it is important when JR first visited the basement, since he claims to have done it alone.

Everytime I look at the trainroom photographs and think about JR's apparently ad-hoc explanations I always end up with a prior staging scenario, i.e. one dismantled by JR along with additional information why the scene is now as it is, e.g. JR: I brought JAR's suitcase down from his bedroom.

On his first visit Fleet White moved this suitcase and placed a shard of glass on it.

Foam packing material (Peanuts) were found about the samsonite suitcase.





1998 BPD Interview, Excerpt

Did Fleet White ever fetch a bottle of wine from the wine-cellar, if he did then he knows where the light switch is?

BPD will have put this question to Fleet White and he will have answered.

Days earlier the housekeeper LHP and her daughter had no problem locating the light switch when asked to fetch something by PR.

When Fleet White says he could not find the light switch he is not saying which one !

.

I agree it would be odd that FW didn't know where the switch was if he had fetched wine from there. But I am not sure if that is a fact?. I know in ST book he said it would be very hard to find the light switch if you didn't know where it was. And the BPD did experiments to see how much a person could see in that room without light.

I think this site has a great diagram of that room, lighting etc

http://b.heart.50megs.com/ramsey/Light_and_the_WR.htm
 
I agree it would be odd that FW didn't know where the switch was if he had fetched wine from there. But I am not sure if that is a fact?. I know in ST book he said it would be very hard to find the light switch if you didn't know where it was. And the BPD did experiments to see how much a person could see in that room without light.

I think this site has a great diagram of that room, lighting etc

http://b.heart.50megs.com/ramsey/Light_and_the_WR.htm

Thank you, KK. I just want to say for the matter of accuracy, that the light switch box was only 30 inches at the most(about knee high) off the ground.


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