Did John Ramsey carry the body to contaminate the scene or not?

[Tadpole12]

JR shaking his head yes, then no.

https://youtu.be/wlb-4f7tL2I


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It's not easy, naturally,
to nod in the negative,
while thinking/knowing the affirmative?
Some kind of neuro override in effect?

 

[Tadpole12]

Where do you think she was then?

crawlspace or
hidden behind screens

 

[Cottonstar]

It's not easy, naturally,
to nod in the negative,
while thinking/knowing the affirmative?
Some kind of neuro override in effect?

Body language tells you everything you need to know.


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[Cottonstar]

Here is the full segment. It doesn’t get any better.

https://youtu.be/VS0ntbs_s3Q


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[JSolt1210]

Here is the full segment. It doesn’t get any better.

https://youtu.be/VS0ntbs_s3Q


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Wow! You weren’t kidding!

“How do you say ‘no’ any more clearly than ‘no’?”

Well, by actually saying it! And saying it firmly and surely and unequivocally. She slowly nodded her head, then whispered it.

Meanwhile JR gives a long-winded answer about how “that’s the most difficult question I’ve ever been asked.” It’s not a difficult question, in my opinion. The suggestion, of course, may be hard to hear, especially if you’re innocent. But in and of itself, the question is not hard to answer.

I also note the whole “I would’ve given my life for JonBenét,” not “for my daughter,” or “for my child,” or “for my little girl.” It’s very formal with him.

And lastly I note the questionable, even ominous, “... and I regret... that I wasn’t able to that night.” To me, “that night” sounds so specific that I wonder if that’s his way of saying, “I personally didn’t do it, but I could’ve prevented it and I didn’t.” Just my opinion.


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[kaykay543]

I was BDI and the parents covered it up for a long time. Until I read more about John. I think what clinched it for me was his faking yet another intruder breaking into his house. And of course the intruder came in through the basement and was a "tall black man" Such a phoney. I think in his twisted mind he was trying to show that an intruder did come in the other house and kill JBR.

Also you would think a rich man that had his daughter killed in his house, would have a state of the art alarm system turned on.

 

[Userid]

I was BDI and the parents covered it up for a long time. Until I read more about John. I think what clinched it for me was his faking yet another intruder breaking into his house. And of course the intruder came in through the basement and was a "tall black man" Such a phoney. I think in his twisted mind he was trying to show that an intruder did come in the other house and kill JBR.

Also you would think a rich man that had his daughter killed in his house, would have a state of the art alarm system turned on.

Look at it this way: who would JR have been covering for, in both the Georgia "attack" and the Colorado murder? Hint: it wouldn't have been BR.

 

[Cottonstar]

I was BDI and the parents covered it up for a long time. Until I read more about John. I think what clinched it for me was his faking yet another intruder breaking into his house. And of course the intruder came in through the basement and was a "tall black man" Such a phoney. I think in his twisted mind he was trying to show that an intruder did come in the other house and kill JBR.

Also you would think a rich man that had his daughter killed in his house, would have a state of the art alarm system turned on.

Au contraire. JR has the most to lose. BR, essentially, and at the least, legally, has nothing to lose from the truth coming out. If BR admits it or it’s somehow ever proven he did it, oh well. The law can’t touch him, he can claim it was an accident, and he doesn’t suffer to much fall-out. On the other hand, JR has everything to lose. 21 plus years of lies and deception to everyone. His reputation, his legacy, his wife. All gone. But, to him most importantly, his money is all gone, and with that will be the hundreds of legal cases that will follow. All of the money he stole from the tabloids, and all of the defamation lawsuits against Thomas, Wolff, CBS, Time Warner, and a slew of others would bury him. He would be asked to pay all that money back. All of this an I still haven’t mentioned the law coming after him for his role in the cover-up.

So, as you can see protecting the LIE is more important than protecting the TRUTH.

Back to the break-in situation. Back in April 2001, JR was mired in a defamation lawsuit and was the defendant against Chris Wolf. JR was nervous, for if he loses this case, he has to pay millions to Wolf, but also Wolf would have been able to prove Patsy wrote the note, and then it would have all crumbled down.

So, on the day of the Atlanta “break-in”, Lin Wood was on national television in the morning, on the TODAY show trying to drum up support for his client, going on about how the GJ voted to not indict them, blah, blah, blah. So, guess what? That same morning, breaking news!, someone broke into the Ramsey basement in Atlanta! Wow!. The kicker was, Chris Wolf was supposed to appear on Larry King Live that same night to tell his side of the story, and show Cina Wong’s devastating ransom note to Patsy writings comparisons. Well, JR’s break-in stunt cancelled Wolf’s appearance on LKL, and guess what aired instead? Yup! News of the Ramsey break-in, in Atlanta.

JR wasn’t protecting the truth when he staged the Atlanta break-in, he was desperate to protect his money, and the lie.


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[kaykay543]

Au contraire. JR has the most to lose. BR, essentially, and at the least, legally, has nothing to lose from the truth coming out. If BR admits it or it’s somehow ever proven he did it, oh well. The law can’t touch him, he can claim it was an accident, and he doesn’t suffer to much fall-out. On the other hand, JR has everything to lose. 21 plus years of lies and deception to everyone. His reputation, his legacy, his wife. All gone. But, to him most importantly, his money is all gone, and with that will be the hundreds of legal cases that will follow. All of the money he stole from the tabloids, and all of the defamation lawsuits against Thomas, Wolff, CBS, Time Warner, and a slew of others would bury him. He would be asked to pay all that money back. All of this an I still haven’t mentioned the law coming after him for his role in the cover-up.

So, as you can see protecting the LIE is more important than protecting the TRUTH.

Back to the break-in situation. Back in April 2001, JR was mired in a defamation lawsuit and was the defendant against Chris Wolf. JR was nervous, for if he loses this case, he has to pay millions to Wolf, but also Wolf would have been able to prove Patsy wrote the note, and then it would have all crumbled down.

So, on the day of the Atlanta “break-in”, Lin Wood was on national television in the morning, on the TODAY show trying to drum up support for his client, going on about how the GJ voted to not indict them, blah, blah, blah. So, guess what? That same morning, breaking news!, someone broke into the Ramsey basement in Atlanta! Wow!. The kicker was, Chris Wolf was supposed to appear on Larry King Live that same night to tell his side of the story, and show Cina Wong’s devastating ransom note to Patsy writings comparisons. Well, JR’s break-in stunt cancelled Wolf’s appearance on LKL, and guess what aired instead? Yup! News of the Ramsey break-in, in Atlanta.

JR wasn’t protecting the truth when he staged the Atlanta break-in, he was desperate to protect his money, and the lie.


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All the same is also true if JR did it. Except that then he has even more to lose such as his freedom

 

[flourish]

Look at it this way: who would JR have been covering for, in both the Georgia "attack" and the Colorado murder? Hint: it wouldn't have been BR.

Could you refresh my memory.... What's this "attack" in Georgia?

 

[PositiveLight]

i think just about everyone wishes fw would just talk already -- i really do think he holds the key to many questions.

agreed.

 

[PositiveLight]

A poised and rehearsed Patsy stutters when asked by Barbara if she was willing to take a lie detector test.

John has this dazed stare when Baraba asked him about molestation.

https://youtu.be/Nltc6UeKigw

"We were frightened. There was a murderer on the loose." - PR
Yup she got that right and the murderer lived in the house....

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Perhaps if I explain what Cottonstar’s photos show (about which had previously only been speculated) and explain how the electricity worked, this will make more sense and what this proves will become more apparent to everyone.

I hadn’t seen, and I don’t think anyone else had seen, enough detail in photos to know for sure where the wall switch was or that there was a second switch somewhere else in the room. Look at the photo showing the light switch just inside the door. Think about where you instinctively look for a light switch when you open the door going into a room. Without thinking, you would expect the switch to be just inside the doorway on the opposite side of the door hinges -- exactly where the WC light switch is. Rooms are intentionally designed that way. (Exceptions occur because of conflicts.) Beyond the fact that this light switch is exactly where it would be expected, when the door is open there should be enough light from outside for Fleet White to have been able to see it.

The electricity comes into the room at the ceiling and goes down to this light switch. From there another electrical wire comes out of the switch and goes up the side of the door to the ceiling, over the door, around the inside of the corner, across the wall a bit, and then down the wall to another switch with two outlet boxes attached. Anything needing electricity would have to be plugged into one of those outlets and both switches would have to be turned on. The fluorescent light in the WC was plugged into this outlet.

Think about this and what has been written about Fleet White’s actions and John Ramsey’s statements. When you figure it out, it all makes sense and it proves (most likely) that Ramsey went into that room and turned on the light after White was there and before JonBenet’s body was “discovered” after 1:00 pm.

If no one else figures it out and posts it, I’ll explain it in another post.



This might help. Here is a post from the past where I had speculated on what Cottonstar's photos show (I was incorrect in guessing that there was conduit):
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/s...tcase-in-the-basement&p=12871583#post12871583

Otg,
These observations are excellent and it all makes sense.

JR hid her in the winecellar and turned off the light by the switch on the left and he also cut off the electricity by the shalter box down on the right wall .
This makes me think that his initial plan was to hide her until LE left the house and he probably would take her out somewhere after LE left .
It's like double switching off for assuring her not being found out at all.

There is a similar electricity shalter box in my house having a few buttons on it.
When the buttons are down, the light switches don't work . Once I couldn't shut down the air condition with the remote controller and i cut off whole electricty from that shalter box.

My point is maybe there was a similar electric shalter box (whatever it's called )
for the rest of the house upstairs as well and JR shut it down at some point of staging and cleaning up and that's why JR took B upstairs with a flashlight because the whole house was all in darkness.
JB's lamp was on in the photos .Why would the R leave it on while staging an intruder with a flashlight which was left in the kitchen for that reference imo.
So maybe at some point when the staging was finalized JR switched that electricty shalter on again and so JB's lamp was on as how it was when she was alive.
Another point is iirc there was a neighbor who had mentioned that an outside lamp which was always on at nights , was off . Could that be off because of cutting off the electricity from shalter ?

R might have done that for Burke not seeing anything or being able to turn on the lights at an inconvenient time.

Just food for thought...

 

[BoldBear]

Police officers came to a house when it was dark outside. They carry flashlights. The idea that John Ramsey left the body in a dark room thinking no one would find her is a really big leap. He could have had no expectations that she wouldn't have been found almost immediately. The fact that Officer French and Sergeant Richenbach didn't do a thorough search of the home will forever be one of the biggest mistakes made by police.

To somehow believe that John planned to have a little darkness outsmart the police is strange.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Police officers came to a house when it was dark outside. They carry flashlights. The idea that John Ramsey left the body in a dark room thinking no one would find her is a really big leap. He could have had no expectations that she wouldn't have been found almost immediately. The fact that Officer French and Sergeant Richenbach didn't do a thorough search of the home will forever be one of the biggest mistakes made by police.

To somehow believe that John planned to have a little darkness outsmart the police is strange.

I didn’t say I somehow believed anything but I don’t see anything strange or a leap. Kidnappers usually kidnap their victims out of the house and JR night have expected LE to get the info and leave the house earlier.

 

[BoldBear]

I didn’t say I somehow believed anything but I don’t see anything strange or a leap. Kidnappers usually kidnap their victims out of the house and JR night have expected LE to get the info and leave the house earlier.

There would have been no way to assume the police weren't going search the entire home after the call was made even if it was a kidnapping. Even if John did a great job at hiding the body and the police left the home, that doesn't mean they wouldn't have been watching. If everyone left the home and John was given a chance to get the body out of the home, he may have been followed plain clothes police officers. This doesn't show a great criminal mind. If he would have left the body in a dark room and expected the police to believe his story about the kidnapping, then he's an idiot. He couldn't even assume that the police weren't going to check the crawl spaces. And while the basement had a lot of clutter, there were very few places to hide the body.

 

[Userid]

There would have been no way to assume the police weren't going search the entire home after the call was made even if it was a kidnapping. Even if John did a great job at hiding the body and the police left the home, that doesn't mean they wouldn't have been watching. If everyone left the home and John was given a chance to get the body out of the home, he may have been followed plain clothes police officers. This doesn't show a great criminal mind. If he would have left the body in a dark room and expected the police to believe his story about the kidnapping, then he's an idiot. He couldn't even assume that the police weren't going to check the crawl spaces. And while the basement had a lot of clutter, there were very few places to hide the body.

You make some good points here. Admittedly, I've always believed that the plan originally, was to dispose of the body after police left the scene. The cops were called because they couldn't spare another minute without making the call right then, as their scheduled flight demanded; and there was no time left to dispose of the body by the time they needed to call police without arousing suspicion. The fact she was so "bundled" like a "papoose" always made me wonder if perhaps she was bundled like that with transport purposes in mind.

 

[dgfred]

I believe he wanted her found there... because of the other staging with/around her.

 

[Userid]

I believe he wanted her found there... because of the other staging with/around her.

Yes, that's plausible. I question whether that was the plan from the very beginning or not, though. Do you believe they would have wanted her found immediately? Such as, when Officer French first encountered the door?

I guess the big question is, was the staging done because they wanted her found in the house? Or was it done as a fail-safe in case they couldn't remove the body? I think the staging would have been done even if they ended up disposing of the body elsewhere, although others may disagree.

 

[questfortrue]

You all have great points. The most desirable and the most elusive is to know with certainty what was in the parents’ minds that morning. Oh well, here’s my 2 cents.

Did they want the police to discover her? Well, certainly if they called at 5:56 am and the BPD was there at 5:59 am, the plan that they called authorities and, because of their call, JonBenét was killed no longer works. (Hey it’s what the RN says.) It no longer works because, as Kolar points out ‘tongue in cheek’, the kidnapper had to still be around hiding somewhere when he overheard the frantic 911 phone call from Patsy and made a rash judgment to kill JB after that call. That plan would have worked out much better if the police had actually left. So, if that was the Rs’ idea, it was clearly foiled by the police not leaving.

BTW, and maybe it’s just me, but from a superficial view of what happened that morning, it looks like someone needed to rethink the situation. Since the police did not leave after the 10 am hour passed, JR was left no choice but to do a bit more staging, just in case.

What would have happened if the BPD had found her? :noooo:Given that both Patsy and JR were extremely talented at ‘dancing’ their explanations, for a time the story seemed to pivot to an explanation in which someone had targeted JR and decided to hurt him in the worst possible way. As Patsy remarked on LKL, the RN was a ruse to throw off the police. That kidnapper-killer person entered the home to kill JB. This is a great example of Patsy and JR winging their explanations, because JR has a slightly different take on the same LKL program. He calls it a kidnapping gone wrong.

Unfortunately, neither JR nor Patsy could come up with a solid name of someone who wished to destroy this family. So it’s a little problematic. Surely JR would know who hated his guts that much?

Did they hide her and intend, by jerry-rigging the lights in the wc, that she would not be found? Yep, it is actually possible JR or PR was an idiot in this situation, perhaps figuring she was so well hidden no one would find her even with flashlights. They did want a ‘proper’ funeral.

And then the heavens open. :dance:Finally, a wonderful break when Lou Smit is hired to investigate. He found the presence of an Intruder with evidence of a broken window, a suitcase, a Styrofoam peanut. Gone is the explanation of an inside job. Gone is the idea of someone who knew JR killing JB in order to hurt him. Now there is a perfect explanation: An Intruder ('pedophile') completes the kidnapping gone wrong storyline. The RN is justified. But, as Cyril Wecht points out, the Intruder did make a big mistake: He forgot to remove the body which could have been ransomed.

The perfect explanation for a RN and a body in the wc just eludes me. :facepalm: As, imo, it did the Rs.