Did John Ramsey carry the body to contaminate the scene or not?

[tezi]

I voted that he "discovered" the body, because he wanted to hurry this along. No particular reason, except to get the BPD out of the house or so he thought.

I will elaborate further when I can concentrate. The grandkidlets are here.

JMO

 

[Venom]

I don't base my feeling that the RDI on just him finding the body and taking it upstairs. It's much more little blocks that build the wall.
For some reason, it sits odd with me on him finding her, tearing the tape off, and then taking her upstairs. My hinky meter goes off. IIRC, he wasn't yelling for help and an ambulance, FW was.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I voted that he "discovered" the body, because he wanted to hurry this along. No particular reason, except to get the BPD out of the house or so he thought.

I will elaborate further when I can concentrate. The grandkidlets are here.

JMO

Those 7+ hours must have been agonising, yet there he was cool as a cucumber, reading his mail.

Bizarre...also entirely inconsistent with the inevitable anxiety of knowing

a. your child is being held by an unknown group of kidnappers you are expecting to hear from any second or

b. your child is lying somewhere in the house deceased either at your own hands, or someone elses.

His calmness fits with neither scenario unless you insert one factor - psychopathy. He's cold as ice because that's what he's made of.

In which case, he got tired of waiting for the fumblers to find her body so went and did it himself, just like he staged everything else.

:cow:

 

[gramcracker]

SS: thank you for posting LA's March 2000 deposition. I had only read the transcript of/watched the Sept 1999 20/20 interview, where she mentioned yet skirted some huge issues: why she counted the rounds for her firearm, why she might use it, what the look in JR's eyes meant, who was involved/responsible, etc. then she was totally forthcoming in the depo and laid everything on the line, using logic and common sense. because LW could go after someone for a broadcast interview while he could not for a deposition under oath?

 

[UKGuy]

I've always been curious about why John Ramsey pulled the duct tape off and carried JonBenet upstairs. To me, I'd have thought about disturbing any evidence. But, then again, I'm a true crime buff.
I know that one has no idea how they would react, think, or do if this should happen to them.

Venom,
I think it was all part of the act. JR's take on a homicide drama, i.e. what a concerned parent might do with the body?

That it contaminates JonBenet's person with external artifact is likely to be intentional.

Otherwise JR could have signalled to Fleet White to bring the folks upstairs to the wine-cellar downstairs, so to view JonBenet, same difference.

.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Venom,
I think it was all part of the act. JR's take on a homicide drama, i.e. what a concerned parent might do with the body?

That it contaminates JonBenet's person with external artifact is likely to be intentional.

Otherwise JR could have signalled to Fleet White to bring the folks upstairs to the wine-cellar downstairs, so to view JonBenet, same difference.

.

Yup.

He's good at pretending to be human, just doesn't quite get there.

:cow:

 

[DeeDee249]

There is an eyewitness other than JR to the scene in the wine cellar. FW was right behind JR- he saw the same thing JR saw. He knows how she was lying (although livor mortis proves that for us as well) and he knows whether JR actually tried to untie her wrists. I am sure that never happened- for one, JR lied about her hands being tightly bound. There was NO mark (either red or white) on her wrists and rigor fixed her hands well over a foot apart. So- never happened. I have never heard FW refute publicly JR's claims, but I am sure he spoke to LE about it.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Well, I know *me* and am presenting this from my own POV.

If I knew there was a kidnapping of my daughter (because of the ransom note), I wouldn't be going down to a dark wine celler with a lot of places for a perp to hide BY MYSELF.

And.......if I did find her, I would immediately scream so loud for help that everyone would've come running down to the basement. But I would not let them touch her because I know the importance of crime scenes. JBR was in rigor, blue, and obviously dead for a while. LE would be the only ones to touch her.

What I know I wouldn't do is carry her upstairs and place her under ***the Christmas Tree*** like some macabre present. Why hurt PR any more by seeing the dead child's body....why hurt the mother with this sight and of course all of the guests that knew and loved her?

That is what separates JR and myself. I would have called for help, I would've made sure that only LE touched the scene enough to confirm JBR was dead. I would've made sure no one moved her until there was enough LE/ME help. And I would've shielded her body after all the evidence with a sheet or insisted one be brought in. I would've protected the mother (and guests) from the gruesome sight.

But not JR........he put her right under the tree.

Even if I were a guest in that house that night, there's no way I'd have a Christmas tree again (to this day) without envisioning the horrible sight of a 6year old in full rigor, arms up, totally blue, blood, etc, etc.
And maybe that is what bothers Linda A. also.

moo

 

[DeeDee249]

Well, I know *me* and am presenting this from my own POV.

If I knew there was a kidnapping of my daughter (because of the ransom note), I wouldn't be going down to a dark wine celler with a lot of places for a perp to hide BY MYSELF.

And.......if I did find her, I would immediately scream so loud for help that everyone would've come running down to the basement. But I would not let them touch her because I know the importance of crime scenes. JBR was in rigor, blue, and obviously dead for a while. LE would be the only ones to touch her.

What I know I wouldn't do is carry her upstairs and place her under ***the Christmas Tree*** like some macabre present. Why hurt PR any more by seeing the dead child's body....why hurt the mother with this sight and of course all of the guests that knew and loved her?

That is what separates JR and myself. I would have called for help, I would've made sure that only LE touched the scene enough to confirm JBR was dead. I would've made sure no one moved her until there was enough LE/ME help. And I would've shielded her body after all the evidence with a sheet or insisted one be brought in. I would've protected the mother (and guests) from the gruesome sight.

But not JR........he put her right under the tree.

Even if I were a guest in that house that night, there's no way I'd have a Christmas tree again (to this day) without envisioning the horrible sight of a 6year old in full rigor, arms up, totally blue, blood, etc, etc.
And maybe that is what bothers Linda A. also.

moo

Actually it was Det Linda Arndt who put JB under the Christmas tree. JR put her on the floor in the foyer when he brought her up. Det. Arndt later said she moved her to a "less-trafficked" area. Under the Christmas Tree was about he worst place I can think of- and Arndt knew better than to move her anyway. It was an appalling breach of protocol on her part.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Thanks, DeeDee....I stand corrected.

So I'll say this: what I wouldn't do is carry her up and place her in the middle of the foyer.

Nope. I wouldn't do that.

But heck, that's me.

 

[Venom]

Actually it was Det Linda Arndt who put JB under the Christmas tree. JR put her on the floor in the foyer when he brought her up. Det. Arndt later said she moved her to a "less-trafficked" area. Under the Christmas Tree was about he worst place I can think of- and Arndt knew better than to move her anyway. It was an appalling breach of protocol on her part.

She couldn't have sealed off the foyer or kept traffic away from the area?
:scared:

 

[Venom]

What I know I wouldn't do is carry her upstairs and place her under ***the Christmas Tree*** like some macabre present. Why hurt PR any more by seeing the dead child's body....why hurt the mother with this sight and of course all of the guests that knew and loved her?

Maybe he wanted to "show" PR what she had done? That would be if he wasn't in on it and figured it out, or if he just helped stage. This case has all kinds of possibilities.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Thanks, DeeDee....I stand corrected.

So I'll say this: what I wouldn't do is carry her up and place her in the middle of the foyer.

Nope. I wouldn't do that.

But heck, that's me.

I wouldn't put my cat on the floor when I found her dead. No, I went and got one of my good decorative bath towels, laid her on the sofa, and gently wrapped her lovingly in it. Oh and when I found her, I held her close to my chest and sobbed into her soft fur.

And I'm an atheist!!!

 

[Linda7NJ]

Seems to me he carried her as if she were a surf board as opposed to his own precious daughter.

 

[BOESP]

I am by no means a John Ramsey fan but JonBenet was 36" tall (iirc), plus any additional height for her extended arms and hands. I guesstimate she was approximately 10-12" wide at her shoulders. Her body was very rigid. It would be extremely difficult to walk up stairs carrying her little body up close to his. He would likely have kicked her with his knees; he had to do something to allow his body to move. To test this, try using a 3x6 board 36" long. Hold it against your body and try walking. Then try holding the board away from your body.

 

[Ausgirl]

I do see the benefits in standing back at looking a 'cumulative effects' of a suspect's total behaviours.. and of course, circumstantial evidence can be extremely useful in identifying possible suspects.

But it's also true that when coming at a crime from a suspect-based POV (ie, looking for proof of guilt for one particular suspect) it's very easy to read 'guilt' into things which on their own might not be indicative of guilt. It's also easy to 'snowball' every minute aspect into a larger picture of guilt, where guilt doesn't actually exist. That's why I'm wary of 'woulda's' and shoulda's, and judgements of that kind.

Having watched "slam dunk guilty" parents be 100% exonerated by new evidence in another highly controversial case, I've come to think it's healthy to play devil's avocado (as my daughter once called it) when it comes to assessing each small factor in that fashion.

I don't want people thinking I am here in the predominantly hardcore RDI world of WS just to be a giant pain or a troll when I question assumptions of guilt, or assumptions of certain behaviours as proof of guilt. I just think it's healthy to try to be objective and look at things from all sides, because after all - no-one yet knows for sure who killed JonBenet and there may be innocent people being discussed.

That said, I do not think all was sunshine and roses in the Ramsey home, and I do see some things that indicate good reason to suspect Ramsey involvement. Just - the subject of this poll isn't one of them.

 

[otg]

I am by no means a John Ramsey fan but JonBenet was 36" tall (iirc), plus any additional height for her extended arms and hands. I guesstimate she was approximately 10-12" wide at her shoulders. Her body was very rigid. It would be extremely difficult to walk up stairs carrying her little body up close to his. He would likely have kicked her with his knees; he had to do something to allow his body to move. To test this, try using a 3x6 board 36" long. Hold it against your body and try walking. Then try holding the board away from your body.

This would be a good experiment for anyone with something suitably similar in length. But the AR records JonBenet's height as 47" (or, 1" shy of 4'). I've seen it misprinted in other sources as 4'-7", so the reason for confusion is obvious. Remember that Arndt said he was carrying her with her head above his. If he was holding her with his hands under her armpits, she would have about 3/4 of her height below his hands (see sketch), or about 3'. As BOESP suggests, his legs may have bumped up against her's if she was held close to him.

JonBenet's weight was ~45 lbs. I'm not sure of John's height, but I know he was no weight-lifter. 45 pounds is not difficult for an average man to lift. But add to that feat that he was carrying her at arm's length (or maybe a little less), while running from the WC through the basement and up the length of the stairs. What I'm saying is that it's not too difficult to do, especially considering adrenaline, but it is awkward to say the least. It would be much easier to hold her closer to his own body while carrying the weight of her body up the stairs (and instinctive, I would think).

So why did he not carry her as most people would carry a sleeping child -- cradled in his arms -- as he claimed to have done the night before when they got home and he carried her up the stairs? This position provides even distribution of body weight, comfortable management of the weight, and no interference from his own legs. Anyone ever wonder why he didn't carry her up the stairs like that when he "found" her?

This whole scene just seems strange to me -- unbelievably strange. He knew she was stiff, he could see her lips were blue, he knew she was cold (at one time he even claimed to have attempted mouth-to-mouth resuscitation), and yet he laid her down on the floor and asked Arndt if she was dead? Give me a break.

 

[madeleine]

them holding hands (circle around the body) and praying....I find that SO creepy....sounds like a cult thing or something....did this happen before she was placed under the X-mas tree?I don't quite get the timing...or were they standing around the tree?confused here

 

[BOESP]

otg,

Thanks for the eggscellent diagram and corrections to JonBenet's height. Wouldn't John also have had to consider clearance under and around the doorways too? In trying to do a visual "walk-through" in my mind, it just seems like it would be easier to manage a staircase, steps and a door by holding her away from the body? If he manipulated the body to a left-to-right angle, then JonBenet may not have fit in the stairwell and certainly not through a doorway.

I can't see him purposely trying not to have contact with her and, giving the benefit of the doubt, maybe that was his way of trying not to contaminate the body.

You also mentioned the weight: 45 pounds. Could Patsy have managed carrying JonBenet downstairs since Patsy was in recovery at the time? I still have questions about Patsy coming down a winding staircase (or maybe she used the front staircase?) carrying a 45-pound body.

 

[otg]

otg,

Thanks for the eggscellent diagram and corrections to JonBenet's height.

Just following your eggsample, BOESP. :wink:

Wouldn't John also have had to consider clearance under and around the doorways too? In trying to do a visual "walk-through" in my mind, it just seems like it would be easier to manage a staircase, steps and a door by holding her away from the body? If he manipulated the body to a left-to-right angle, then JonBenet may not have fit in the stairwell and certainly not through a doorway.

I don't know. I'm not sure just how much pre-planning he might have done before picking her up and figuring in his own mind how he would maneuver her up to the kitchen. Maybe we're putting too much into this. I'm simply thinking there are better ways to carry her -- if he really didn't know she was already dead and that her body was stiff. But knowing that to be the case, he chose to carry her the way he did.

I can't see him purposely trying not to have contact with her and, giving the benefit of the doubt, maybe that was his way of trying not to contaminate the body.

Perhaps. But somehow I don't think preservation of the crime scene was his top priority that morning. Had it even been a concern at all for him, he would have called for help as soon as he knew she was dead.

You also mentioned the weight: 45 pounds. Could Patsy have managed carrying JonBenet downstairs since Patsy was in recovery at the time? I still have questions about Patsy coming down a winding staircase (or maybe she used the front staircase?) carrying a 45-pound body.

Personally, I doubt it. I mean, she could do it under extreme circumstances, but I don't think it would be easy. Come to think of it... I don't think I would want to carry a child (or even a tiny baby, or even a box of glassware) myself down a spiral staircase. In order to see each of your next steps, you would need to have your arms free to be able to see where to place your foot. Maybe that's why I've always doubted the idea that an unconscious JonBenet was carried down the spiral staircase, and so far as I know, the only reason people have speculated that is because of the garland that was found in her hair. To me, there are too many places in the house that the garland could have come from to feel it has to be tied to the spiral staircase only.

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BTW, this is not the thread this next part of my post applies to, but I don't post in that thread, and it wouldn't be welcomed anyway. But once and for all, the palm print in the basement was NOT unidentified. As well, the Hi-Tec shoe print is NOT unsourced to a Ramsey:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...benet-ramsey-john-and-patsy-ramsey-palm-print

"A footprint found in mold on the floor of the Ramseys' wine cellar, near where the girl's body was discovered, was linked by investigators to her then-9-year-old brother, Burke."

"Investigators also said a palm print on the door leading to the wine cellar is from Melinda Ramsey, JonBenet's adult half-sister, who was in Georgia at the time of the girl's death."

And even though it wasn't mentioned in this particular article, there was NOT "a pubic hair in her blanket that doesn't match any of the ramseys."