Did John Ramsey carry the body to contaminate the scene or not?

[chlban]

[

QUOTE=Venom;9862318]Maybe he wanted to "show" PR what she had done? That would be if he wasn't in on it and figured it out, or if he just helped stage. This case has all kinds of possibilities.

[/QUOTE]

Yes, that's a thought I had as well. While I am already on record as saying I don't think JR carrying the body upstairs, in anhd of itself, to be particularly suspicous, I have always found the way John and Patsy interacted that morning to be very, very suspicious. I suppose I should say the way they did not interact. Very strange behavior there.

 

[SapphireSteel]

otg,

Thanks for the eggscellent diagram and corrections to JonBenet's height. Wouldn't John also have had to consider clearance under and around the doorways too? In trying to do a visual "walk-through" in my mind, it just seems like it would be easier to manage a staircase, steps and a door by holding her away from the body? If he manipulated the body to a left-to-right angle, then JonBenet may not have fit in the stairwell and certainly not through a doorway.

I can't see him purposely trying not to have contact with her and, giving the benefit of the doubt, maybe that was his way of trying not to contaminate the body.

You also mentioned the weight: 45 pounds. Could Patsy have managed carrying JonBenet downstairs since Patsy was in recovery at the time? I still have questions about Patsy coming down a winding staircase (or maybe she used the front staircase?) carrying a 45-pound body.

Maybe, maybe not.

I'd say "no" straight away, but look at all the lugging around Arias did. I guess it's possible, JB was one heck of a lot lighter than Travis.

:cow:

 

[UKGuy]

Maybe he wanted to "show" PR what she had done? That would be if he wasn't in on it and figured it out, or if he just helped stage. This case has all kinds of possibilities.

Venom,
ITA. JR was signalling to PR what the next stage of the drama should be.


If its JDI why does PR back him up then and in public thereafter, i.e. Nedra Paugh was always in the same room as JonBenet when I was away?

If its PDI why does JR lift JonBenet up at all, knowing full well he is contaminating a crime-scene, or does he know its PDI and what he is about to do will communicate to PR, exactly the status of the JonBenet homicide?


.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

John had two hours to ruminate after finding the body around 11 am.

He was prompted to act knowing he was not the only one urged by Arndt to search the house again.

I think he went into a self deluding mode at her urging to search and "fake" found the body and along with that faked his subsequent actions TO FIT HIS SELF DELUSION.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

I do see the benefits in standing back at looking a 'cumulative effects' of a suspect's total behaviours.. and of course, circumstantial evidence can be extremely useful in identifying possible suspects.

But it's also true that when coming at a crime from a suspect-based POV (ie, looking for proof of guilt for one particular suspect) it's very easy to read 'guilt' into things which on their own might not be indicative of guilt. It's also easy to 'snowball' every minute aspect into a larger picture of guilt, where guilt doesn't actually exist. That's why I'm wary of 'woulda's' and shoulda's, and judgements of that kind.

Having watched "slam dunk guilty" parents be 100% exonerated by new evidence in another highly controversial case, I've come to think it's healthy to play devil's avocado (as my daughter once called it) when it comes to assessing each small factor in that fashion.

I don't want people thinking I am here in the predominantly hardcore RDI world of WS just to be a giant pain or a troll when I question assumptions of guilt, or assumptions of certain behaviours as proof of guilt. I just think it's healthy to try to be objective and look at things from all sides, because after all - no-one yet knows for sure who killed JonBenet and there may be innocent people being discussed.

That said, I do not think all was sunshine and roses in the Ramsey home, and I do see some things that indicate good reason to suspect Ramsey involvement. Just - the subject of this poll isn't one of them.

Since this happened in the States, and many of us posters are from the States...our minds subconsiously tend to go with our judicial system's "innocent until proven guilty" mindset. I doubt if any of us here on WS didn't at first think the R's were probably innocent decades ago. Or at least we wanted to believe that decades ago.

But then we hashed things over---and over again. We've applied logic and reasoning. We've analyzed likelihoods and statistics. We are aware that this is a "bedroom" type of crime where there won't be any surveillance tapes, or eye witnesses to the crime. We know that there won't be lots of (non-contaminated) DNA, or straight timelines, for that matter. We know that in "bedroom" crimes, the perp has time to clean things up, stage the scene, and confound LE. So, in these types of "bedroom" crimes, we rely on circumstantial evidence, logic, reasoning, and lots of minutia to try and make conclusions. And we can, so we do. We aren't prosecuting on here, we are sleuthing and theorizing.

<modsnip>.

But many of us want justice for the beautiful little angel, JBR.

....and it's been a long time coming.....if it ever does.....

 

[Linda7NJ]

I think "found" her because he grew tired of waiting for law enforcement to. He wanted to leave the state and for some reason he believed he would be able to. Which in itself is bizarre IMO

I think he carried her upstairs and put on that performance because he thought that's what he should be seen doing.

I don't think he did it to purposefully contaminate. That was a unintended bonus. IMO
I feel Patsy was putting on the performance of her life. Oscar worthy.

 

[tezi]

I think "found" her because he grew tired of waiting for law enforcement to. He wanted to leave the state and for some reason he believed he would be able to. Which in itself is bizarre IMO

I think he carried her upstairs and put on that performance because he thought that's what he should be seen doing.

I don't think he did it to purposefully contaminate. That was a unintended bonus. IMO
I feel Patsy was putting on the performance of her life. Oscar worthy.

Exactly!!! That is something I have been thinking about all day.

JMO

 

[BOESP]

Maybe, maybe not.

I'd say "no" straight away, but look at all the lugging around Arias did. I guess it's possible, JB was one heck of a lot lighter than Travis.

:cow:

JonBenet's weight isn't what I see as the problem. It's the rigidity of her body held against the front of John's body and how that restricts the leg movements needed to walk, especially up stairs. Holding her snugly against his body would have even restricted his movement at his waist (no bending). Seriously, try putting broom sticks to the front of each of your legs with the ends of the handles just above both knees. It's almost impossible to walk. Consider the 3x6 board I used in the other example and holding it against the waist and upper thighs -- it is restrictive. Iirc, Arndt mentioned he was holding her partially above his head and out from his body as Arndt saw John coming up the steps. It just seems that he could have had difficulty walking up stairs if her rigid body was up against him.

 

[Linda7NJ]

JonBenet's weight isn't what I see as the problem. It's the rigidity and how that restricts the leg movements needed to walk, especially up stairs. Seriously, try putting broom sticks to the front of each of your legs with the ends of the handles just above both knees. It's almost impossible to walk. Iirc, Arndt mentioned he was holding her partially above his head and out from his body as Arndt saw John coming up the steps. It just seems that he could have had difficulty walking up stairs if her rigid body was up against him.

So you hold the body close and tilt it to the left side or right. Not difficult to do.

 

[cebee]

Interesting post a few pages back mentioning that no one woke or checked on Blake. If it were MY child, my thought would be OH GOD!! Make sure the other child is ok!!" but they did not even check on him? Wake him up? See if he were ok?
I think JR knew where she was, and either was impatient that she was not 'found' by the police.. or was put down there thinking she would be out of the way till they could 'move' her... but it dragged on and on... and he became concerned that if HE did not 'find' her, they would. It bothered him to think of her down there... he wanted her body out of the house.
If it were your child 'kidnapped' ... would you even THINK maybe she were dead and still in the house>??? Kidnappers dont work that way...

 

[Linda7NJ]

I do see the benefits in standing back at looking a 'cumulative effects' of a suspect's total behaviours.. and of course, circumstantial evidence can be extremely useful in identifying possible suspects.

But it's also true that when coming at a crime from a suspect-based POV (ie, looking for proof of guilt for one particular suspect) it's very easy to read 'guilt' into things which on their own might not be indicative of guilt. It's also easy to 'snowball' every minute aspect into a larger picture of guilt, where guilt doesn't actually exist. That's why I'm wary of 'woulda's' and shoulda's, and judgements of that kind.

Having watched "slam dunk guilty" parents be 100% exonerated by new evidence in another highly controversial case, I've come to think it's healthy to play devil's avocado (as my daughter once called it) when it comes to assessing each small factor in that fashion.

I don't want people thinking I am here in the predominantly hardcore RDI world of WS just to be a giant pain or a troll when I question assumptions of guilt, or assumptions of certain behaviours as proof of guilt. I just think it's healthy to try to be objective and look at things from all sides, because after all - no-one yet knows for sure who killed JonBenet and there may be innocent people being discussed.

That said, I do not think all was sunshine and roses in the Ramsey home, and I do see some things that indicate good reason to suspect Ramsey involvement. Just - the subject of this poll isn't one of them.

I agree with you.
I am a hard core RDI.

I don't always agree with the majority on things and when I see a flaw or an assumption that, in my mind, is "iffy" I'm the first to say so.

I've spoken out and have said the medical literature doesn't support conclusively she was chronically sexually abused. I'll defer to the experts in the field that actually viewed the slides and tissue samples.

I don't believe Johns or Patsy's intent was to contaminate their daughters body.

Edited to add... One or ten circumstantial things is concerning but this case it's overwhelming. When viewing all the "known to us" evidence it's like a giant jig saw that all comes together and points only at a Ramsey.

Here ...circumstantial evidence is given equal weight as direct evidence.

 

[redheadedgal]

I think "found" her because he grew tired of waiting for law enforcement to. He wanted to leave the state and for some reason he believed he would be able to. Which in itself is bizarre IMO

I think he carried her upstairs and put on that performance because he thought that's what he should be seen doing.

I don't think he did it to purposefully contaminate. That was a unintended bonus. IMO
I feel Patsy was putting on the performance of her life. Oscar worthy.

ita. thanks.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Interesting post a few pages back mentioning that no one woke or checked on Blake. If it were MY child, my thought would be OH GOD!! Make sure the other child is ok!!" but they did not even check on him? Wake him up? See if he were ok?
I think JR knew where she was, and either was impatient that she was not 'found' by the police.. or was put down there thinking she would be out of the way till they could 'move' her... but it dragged on and on... and he became concerned that if HE did not 'find' her, they would. It bothered him to think of her down there... he wanted her body out of the house.
If it were your child 'kidnapped' ... would you even THINK maybe she were dead and still in the house>??? Kidnappers dont work that way...

I also wouldn't allow my living child out of my sight let alone leave the house!

So much for "hold your babies close" to quote Patsy.

 

[gramcracker]

them holding hands (circle around the body) and praying....I find that SO creepy....sounds like a cult thing or something....did this happen before she was placed under the X-mas tree?I don't quite get the timing...or were they standing around the tree?confused here

the books by LS, ST and JK pretty much describe the events the same way. it seems that they formed a half-circle with the tree as backdrop

alerted by the shouting from the basement, Arndt was at the top of the basement stairs when she instructed JR to put JB down. JR and FW were shouting the discovery to those in the back of the house. Arndt ordered FW to guard the door to the basement but instead he ran back down to the WC. they were all out of control. JR placed her in the foyer just in front of/very near the front door, and after checking for vital signs Arndt moved her just around the corner to the living room. she told JR that his daughter was dead and he said "It has to be an inside job." JR knelt down and then laid down lengthwise beside JB and put his arm over her, hugging her. PR was still in the sunroom. ST's book describes Arndt observing that JR appeared to be crying but there were no tears, and rising to his knees and peering around before hugging JB a second time before PR entered the room. PR's friends came from the sunroom to the LR which was the source of the excitement they heard but PR remained in the sunroom, alone. Arndt told JR to call 911 and go to his wife. he came back within two minutes and grabbed a blanket from a nearby chair and threw it over JB before Arndt could react or object. then PR came down the hallway to the LR (being assisted in walking by her friends) and she threw her body across JB's body, sobbing and wailing hysterically. then she rose to her knees, arms straight overhead, and called out for JB to be raised like Lazarus. to restore order/gain some control, Arndt asked the pastor to lead the family/friends in reciting the Lord's Prayer while Arndt stood to the side, observing

yes, she screwed up by moving JB's body. but you have to consider that she'd been left alone to wrangle this wild bunch of seven people for two hours, while observing all kinds of odd behaviors as they moved through the house at will and ignored her instructions

 

[DeeDee249]

She couldn't have sealed off the foyer or kept traffic away from the area?
:scared:

Of course she could have. But she didn't. She also could have ordered all the friends and "victim's advocates" to leave the house. She didn't. She could also have ordered them all to remain in one room, stayed there with them, gun drawn. This was she would have been able to keep track of them, prevented them from contaminating the crime scene. But she didn't. And only she knows why. But had she done those things, she would have gotten the scene under control and kept it that way. And JR would not have found the body, and the crime scene would not have been contaminated.

 

[BOESP]

So you hold the body close and tilt it to the left side or right. Not difficult to do.

Maybe, but how wide was the staircase he came up? How wide were the doorways he had to come through?

This is one of the things that almost require an on-site walk-through, at least for me but then I'm not sure it has any bearing one way or the other on John Ramsey's guilt or innocence. :moo:

 

[Linda7NJ]

Maybe, but how wide was the staircase he came up? How wide were the doorways he had to come through?

This is one of the things that almost require an on-site walk-through, at least for me but then I'm not sure it has any bearing one way or the other on John Ramsey's guilt or innocence. :moo:

I borrowed a neighbor kid, 46 pounds....told her to be stiff as a bored. (Having not much upper body strength I couldn't hold her away and her head above mind even if I wanted to) I carried her close to me without any trouble. I didn't go up a staircase. Just my two steps up onto my patio and back down. Was easy peasy.

 

[gramcracker]

Of course she could have. But she didn't. She also could have ordered all the friends and "victim's advocates" to leave the house. She didn't. She could also have ordered them all to remain in one room, stayed there with them, gun drawn. This was she would have been able to keep track of them, prevented them from contaminating the crime scene. But she didn't. And only she knows why. But had she done those things, she would have gotten the scene under control and kept it that way. And JR would not have found the body, and the crime scene would not have been contaminated.

Commander Eller decided and ordered early that morning that the Rs were to be handled gently, as victims, and that no one was to do anything to offend them. they would have screeched to high heaven if the Whites/Fernies were booted

Arndt had been with BPD for eleven years, altho I don't know how many of those years were as a detective. Eller had been promoted to Commander of Detectives eleven months earlier (and I also don't know how long he'd been a detective). regardless, Arndt had the better instincts, she was on the scene, Eller was at BPD headquarters, and her hinky meter was pegged within her first few minutes in the house. Eller had decided the on-scene protocol and Arndt was required to follow that. dollars to donuts, if it was her call she would have sent the friends and victim advocates packing, PDQ. Eller and PC Koby didn't back her play. she had to call 911 to get assistance after the discovery, while having been denied backup for two hours when she was the only LEO in the house. BPD hung her out to dry and then stabbed her in the back when it started to hit the fan

 

[madeleine]

the books by LS, ST and JK pretty much describe the events the same way. it seems that they formed a half-circle with the tree as backdrop

alerted by the shouting from the basement, Arndt was at the top of the basement stairs when she instructed JR to put JB down. JR and FW were shouting the discovery to those in the back of the house. Arndt ordered FW to guard the door to the basement but instead he ran back down to the WC. they were all out of control. JR placed her in the foyer just in front of/very near the front door, and after checking for vital signs Arndt moved her just around the corner to the living room. she told JR that his daughter was dead and he said "It has to be an inside job." JR knelt down and then laid down lengthwise beside JB and put his arm over her, hugging her. PR was still in the sunroom. ST's book describes Arndt observing that JR appeared to be crying but there were no tears, and rising to his knees and peering around before hugging JB a second time before PR entered the room. PR's friends came from the sunroom to the LR which was the source of the excitement they heard but PR remained in the sunroom, alone. Arndt told JR to call 911 and go to his wife. he came back within two minutes and grabbed a blanket from a nearby chair and threw it over JB before Arndt could react or object. then PR came down the hallway to the LR (being assisted in walking by her friends) and she threw her body across JB's body, sobbing and wailing hysterically. then she rose to her knees, arms straight overhead, and called out for JB to be raised like Lazarus. to restore order/gain some control, Arndt asked the pastor to lead the family/friends in reciting the Lord's Prayer while Arndt stood to the side, observing

yes, she screwed up by moving JB's body. but you have to consider that she'd been left alone to wrangle this wild bunch of seven people for two hours, while observing all kinds of odd behaviors as they moved through the house at will and ignored her instructions

yep,I know she asked for back-up and it must have been hard to control all those freaked out folks but IMO she should have kicked them out!not PR and JR but the rest of them.they all probably smelled her weakness and took advantage of it,especially JR.she should have been the one in control.

 

[Venom]

Arndt ordered FW to guard the door to the basement but instead he ran back down to the WC.
He ran back downstairs to look at the broken window again, correct?

she told JR that his daughter was dead and he said "It has to be an inside job."
What did he mean by "inside job?" How would he know?

JR knelt down and then laid down lengthwise beside JB and put his arm over her, hugging her.
Eyebrow raise. Laying down with her? I could see holding her, but laying down with her? Seems a little odd to me.


ST's book describes Arndt observing that JR appeared to be crying but there were no tears, and rising to his knees and peering around before hugging JB a second time before PR entered the room.
Just like PR peering through her hands in the morning.

Arndt told JR to call 911 and go to his wife. he came back within two minutes and grabbed a blanket from a nearby chair and threw it over JB before Arndt could react or object.
Why would he not go comfort his wife?


sobbing and wailing hysterically. then she rose to her knees, arms straight overhead, and called out for JB to be raised like Lazarus.
Dramatics?


to restore order/gain some control, Arndt asked the pastor to lead the family/friends in reciting the Lord's Prayer while Arndt stood to the side, observing
I have to feel bad for Arndt to be alone with this chaos.