Did John Ramsey carry the body to contaminate the scene or not?

[Cottonstar]

“One of the things I find very interesting is I believe John Ramsey is a controlling factor in that household, and uh, nothing would go down without John Ramsey’s approval and direction, and so I don’t think anybody did – I’ve never believe Patsy Ramsey killed her, her child, because I don’t think John Ramsey would have protected her. I think he would have gotten a good lawyer for her. She would have gone to maybe a mental institution and uh, he would have gotten lots of dates. So, I just don’t believe that he would have protected his wife if she had done something. That he would protect himself or his son, very likely, and I want to point out something else that’s interesting. The note itself has the opening which is “Listen Carefully” and no one uses that when they’re writing a note, they only say listen when you’re looking at somebody. Somebody that you’re talking to. So, I believe the note was dictated”

Pat Brown, Criminal profiler.

JR was in control from the first minute. He still is. When you look at the behavioral evidence it shows that both, JR and PR were involved in the initial cover-up. If JR is completely oblivious @5:52am, then we would have seen evidence of the ransom note being handled, with signs of wear, indentions from holding it, clasping it, etc.. instead it was perfect and pristine laid out on the floor of the south hallway. When French arrived minutes after the 911 call, neither JR it PR bring the note with them to show French, instead they lead him to the spot where it was sprawled out on the floor. We can see why. Both JR and PR were distancing themselves from the note, and didn’t want their fingerprints on the note.


Immediately after the 911 call, Patsy reached for the phone to call the Whites. In doing so, she noticed the phone was uncradled. She cradled it, and called the the Whites @5:55am, and then subsequently, called the Fernies to come over. Again, behaviorally speaking, this is evidence that both JR and PR were involved, and that they were filling their hastily put together plan. If controlling JR was oblivious he would have wanted to talk about things with his wife, what to do?, immediately calling over friends to muddy the scene would not have been on the list of things to do. Also, if JR wasn’t involved prior to 11am, then why didn’t he immediately rush to Burke’s room to awake him and ask him questions about JBR? When did you see her last? Did she sleep in here last night etc...this would have been a normal behavioral response from an innocent parent.


JR never told Fleet White about the ransom note when he arrived that morning. Surely, JR would have if he was innocent at this point. Also, JR not jumping up and down to LE about the broken basement window being open in the basement is another clue as to his early involvement.


All of this and I still haven’t mentioned the 911 call and JR barking at Burke “We’re not speaking to you”. In a scenario of JR being oblivious, just minutes after finding the note, JR would have no reason to speak in the tone he did, or say those words to his son.


CS

 

[Cottonstar]

Purportedly, JR told his children, JAR and MR-who was with her boyfriend SL, that he found JonBenét’s body at 11am. Notice how JR said this to his kids when he was in a van on the way to the Fernies, while Patsy wasn’t present.


I believe, JR was pulling a CYAIA(Cover your *advertiser censored* in advance).


Cover your *advertiser censored*- To do something to protect yourself from blame, criticism, or legal problems in the future, or in advance.


JR was in control early. Making phone calls on his cell phone all day, hence the need for the records to disappear. He was calling pilots, financial managers, lawyers etc...


A great example of CYAIA is from the Casey Anthony case. Prior to abandoning her car (and it eventually being towed) Casey texted friend Amy Huizenga saying the car smelled really bad, and her dad checked it out and a dead animal was plastered to the engine. Covering her tracks in advance for them later finding a car that reeked(of a dead body),also setting up the scenario that her dad had access to that car - and of course he was thrown under the bus at trial, accused of being involved.


JR knew the staging was shoddy. He also knew that Patsy wrote the note, so by him saying in front of his kids he found the body at 11am, he could later claim that he wasn’t involved until 11am(and his kids could testify to this)when he found her body. I don’t hesitate for a moment in thinking that JR would have thrown Patsy under the bus- if he needed too.


CS

 

[discretions]

Very well said, Cottonstar, and excellent insight into John's position of dominance both in his household and with the events of this case, a fact which I find frequently overlooked. All too often he's given a free pass and allowed to sneakily manipulate from the shadows, but John was definitely not "clueless" in this coverup.

I find it absolutely mind-blowing that John has admitted that he found the body earlier than he claimed he did, PLACED HIMSELF ALONE WITH THE BODY PRIOR TO ITS "BEING FOUND", and then ADMITTED THE "FINDING" WAS STAGED. Just flat-out admitted it. I only found out about this recently and I have no words for it, just awe.

That said, since I'm very eager to hear different people's theories of the case, I'm curious to know how the 911 call fits into your view of things, if I may ask? The reason I consider John to be "deeper into" the coverup than Patsy is because to me the 911 call seems genuine. I've heard a mother's panic and fear in my life, and it didn't sound much different from Patsy on that phone; but more rationally, to me it makes no sense, if both Patsy and John are equally in on the coverup, for either of them to call 911 while their daughter's body was hidden in the house (poor baby). To me it makes more sense with the directives in the ransom note that John was planning to stage a kidnapping, dispose of his daughter's body in the process (again, poor baby), and Patsy, who wasn't in on the plan, botched the originally planned staging by calling 911. Thus John had to completely reformulate how he staged this crime, and he had to do so "on the fly", so to speak, with LE officers in the house. Thus the shoddiness, etc. I don't think Patsy is completely innocent— I think later on, she definitely lied to cover John's *advertiser censored*, to borrow your terminology— but while I know that women can be just as conniving, abusive, deceitful, and evil as men can, I just don't see that here. I see that more in the Casey Anthony case, but not here. What about you?

 

[Tadpole12]

PR is not excluded as author of rn.

@ d

So does JR forge the rn in PR's style
systematically matching her v/c ratio?

 

[discretions]

T— I'll admit that's the weakest part of my theory. What's this about a v/c ratio?

 

[Tadpole12]

I have some knowledge of these 2 that doesn't come from this case or from books or interviews and I would put nothing past them - nothing.

TT, your statement gives one pause.

 

[Tadpole12]

vowel/consonant ratio, unique to an individual,
according to forensic linguists.

 

[Tadpole12]

silverwolf - These little errors in details seem normal until one realizes that he was a Navy Pilot, a techie and President of a Billion dollar company. He would be watching the clocks and his wrist watch constantly. So the slip is relevant, it's Freudian.

TY TT
He was regimented wrt time.

 

[discretions]

T- interesting, that's something I would like to learn more about. Thank you for pointing out this avenue for me to do research on.

 

[UKGuy]

“One of the things I find very interesting is I believe John Ramsey is a controlling factor in that household, and uh, nothing would go down without John Ramsey’s approval and direction, and so I don’t think anybody did – I’ve never believe Patsy Ramsey killed her, her child, because I don’t think John Ramsey would have protected her. I think he would have gotten a good lawyer for her. She would have gone to maybe a mental institution and uh, he would have gotten lots of dates. So, I just don’t believe that he would have protected his wife if she had done something. That he would protect himself or his son, very likely, and I want to point out something else that’s interesting. The note itself has the opening which is “Listen Carefully” and no one uses that when they’re writing a note, they only say listen when you’re looking at somebody. Somebody that you’re talking to. So, I believe the note was dictated”

Pat Brown, Criminal profiler.

JR was in control from the first minute. He still is. When you look at the behavioral evidence it shows that both, JR and PR were involved in the initial cover-up. If JR is completely oblivious @5:52am, then we would have seen evidence of the ransom note being handled, with signs of wear, indentions from holding it, clasping it, etc.. instead it was perfect and pristine laid out on the floor of the south hallway. When French arrived minutes after the 911 call, neither JR it PR bring the note with them to show French, instead they lead him to the spot where it was sprawled out on the floor. We can see why. Both JR and PR were distancing themselves from the note, and didn’t want their fingerprints on the note.


Immediately after the 911 call, Patsy reached for the phone to call the Whites. In doing so, she noticed the phone was uncradled. She cradled it, and called the the Whites @5:55am, and then subsequently, called the Fernies to come over. Again, behaviorally speaking, this is evidence that both JR and PR were involved, and that they were filling their hastily put together plan. If controlling JR was oblivious he would have wanted to talk about things with his wife, what to do?, immediately calling over friends to muddy the scene would not have been on the list of things to do. Also, if JR wasn’t involved prior to 11am, then why didn’t he immediately rush to Burke’s room to awake him and ask him questions about JBR? When did you see her last? Did she sleep in here last night etc...this would have been a normal behavioral response from an innocent parent.


JR never told Fleet White about the ransom note when he arrived that morning. Surely, JR would have if he was innocent at this point. Also, JR not jumping up and down to LE about the broken basement window being open in the basement is another clue as to his early involvement.


All of this and I still haven’t mentioned the 911 call and JR barking at Burke “We’re not speaking to you”. In a scenario of JR being oblivious, just minutes after finding the note, JR would have no reason to speak in the tone he did, or say those words to his son.


CS

Cottonstar,

JR was in control from the first minute. He still is. When you look at the behavioral evidence it shows that both, JR and PR were involved in the initial cover-up.

Sure, but who were they covering up for?

If JR's fibers are to be found on JonBenet's genital region, then I reckon thats a smoking gun, with Patsy assisting with the staging.

Otherwise both parents might be attempting to stage Burke out of the case and it was Burke who did most of the staging, it is pretty inept, pretty much what you might expect from a schoolboy, e.g. size-12 underwear, his own longjohns, even according to Kolar leaving his fecally soiled pajamas on JonBenet's bedroom floor, this aspect has a matching feature as a pair of JonBenet's fecally soiled pants were found on her bathroom floor. Then there is the fecally smeared candy box in JonBenet's bedroom.

It could be Patsy is telling the truth, i.e. she dressed JonBenet in the longjohns, apparently replacing one pair of velvet pants for another pair of cotton pants?

Of course the size-12's are a mystery in any JDI or PDI !

It might be Patsy was deliberately implicating BR so to lessen any focus on herself?

.

 

[UKGuy]

Cottonstar,

Sure, but who were they covering up for?

If JR's fibers are to be found on JonBenet's genital region, then I reckon thats a smoking gun, with Patsy assisting with the staging.

Otherwise both parents might be attempting to stage Burke out of the case and it was Burke who did most of the staging, it is pretty inept, pretty much what you might expect from a schoolboy, e.g. size-12 underwear, his own longjohns, even according to Kolar leaving his fecally soiled pajams on JonBenet's bedroom floor, this aspect has a matching feature as a paar of JonBenet's fecally soiled pants were found on her bathroom floor. Then there is the fecally smeared candy box in JonBenet's bedroom.

It could be Patsy is telling the truth, i.e. she dressed JonBenet in the longjohns, apparently replacing one pair of velvet pants for another pair of cotton pants?

Of course the size-12'sare a mystery in any JDI or PDI !

It might be Patsy was deliberately implicating BR so to lessen any focus on herself?

.

 

[Cottonstar]

Cottonstar,

Sure, but who were they covering up for?

If JR's fibers are to be found on JonBenet's genital region, then I reckon thats a smoking gun, with Patsy assisting with the staging.

Otherwise both parents might be attempting to stage Burke out of the case and it was Burke whi did most of the staging, it is pretty inept, pretty much what you might expect from a schoolboy, e.g. size-12 underwear, his own longjohns, even according to Kolar leaving his fecally soiled pajams on JonBenet's bedroom floor, this aspect has a matching feature as a paar of JonBenet's fecally soiled pants were found on her bathroom floor. Then there is the fecally smeared candy box in JonBenet's bedroom.

It could be Patsy is telling the truth, i.e. she dressed JonBenet in the longjohns, apparently replacing one pair of velvet pants for another pair of cotton pants?

Of course the size-12'a are a mystery in any JDI or PDI !

It might be Patsy was deliberately implicating BR so to lessen any focus on herself?

.

UK-

I believe you know the answers to your own questions.

 

[Cottonstar]

Very well said, Cottonstar, and excellent insight into John's position of dominance both in his household and with the events of this case, a fact which I find frequently overlooked. All too often he's given a free pass and allowed to sneakily manipulate from the shadows, but John was definitely not "clueless" in this coverup.

I find it absolutely mind-blowing that John has admitted that he found the body earlier than he claimed he did, PLACED HIMSELF ALONE WITH THE BODY PRIOR TO ITS "BEING FOUND", and then ADMITTED THE "FINDING" WAS STAGED. Just flat-out admitted it. I only found out about this recently and I have no words for it, just awe.

That said, since I'm very eager to hear different people's theories of the case, I'm curious to know how the 911 call fits into your view of things, if I may ask? The reason I consider John to be "deeper into" the coverup than Patsy is because to me the 911 call seems genuine. I've heard a mother's panic and fear in my life, and it didn't sound much different from Patsy on that phone; but more rationally, to me it makes no sense, if both Patsy and John are equally in on the coverup, for either of them to call 911 while their daughter's body was hidden in the house (poor baby). To me it makes more sense with the directives in the ransom note that John was planning to stage a kidnapping, dispose of his daughter's body in the process (again, poor baby), and Patsy, who wasn't in on the plan, botched the originally planned staging by calling 911. Thus John had to completely reformulate how he staged this crime, and he had to do so "on the fly", so to speak, with LE officers in the house. Thus the shoddiness, etc. I don't think Patsy is completely innocent— I think later on, she definitely lied to cover John's *advertiser censored*, to borrow your terminology— but while I know that women can be just as conniving, abusive, deceitful, and evil as men can, I just don't see that here. I see that more in the Casey Anthony case, but not here. What about you?

PR was not the dominant personality in her marriage. However, I believe she was a passive-aggressive, like her mother, Nedra. She was used to getting her way, and knew how to use and manipulate to do so.
IMO.

 

[UKGuy]

UK-

I believe you know the answers to your own questions.

Cottonstar,
I wish I did, since the answers depend on Who Did It.


If I knew I'd write a best seller and retire in comfort.


Superficially it looks like the case is JDI with Patsy assisting, but only JR and BR really know and they are not saying.

.

 

[southernmimi]

One thing seems more than crystal clear, and that is that the two adults destroyed their little girl....one way or another.

 

[UKGuy]

One thing seems more than crystal clear, and that is that the two adults destroyed their little girl....one way or another.

southernmimi,
ITA. Also is the abuse cited in the Grand Jury Counts against each parent that of physical or/and neglect?

.

 

[southernmimi]

Child abuse resulting in death plus accessory for both I believe. I haven't looked at the GJ in awhile.

 

[TeaTime]

Yes, 2 counts each. Child endangerment leading to death or injury by allowing a condition to exist which was likely to cause such harm and covering up the acts of another. Not verbatim, but close enough.

It is unclear if this means the GJ couldn't figure out which one of the 2 committed the acts leading to death or if they were, together, covering for a third, unnamed, person. But, what was clear is that the GJ didn't believe the intruder theory and knew that this was all a staged kidnapping to cover a homicide committed by one of the members of the family, as did everyone who was at the house that morning and every LE investigator except the one hired by the oh so political DA.

 

[UKGuy]

Yes, 2 counts each. Child endangerment leading to death or injury by allowing a condition to exist which was likely to cause such harm and covering up the acts of another. Not verbatim, but close enough.

It is unclear if this means the GJ couldn't figure out which one of the 2 committed the acts leading to death or if they were, together, covering for a third, unnamed, person. But, what was clear is that the GJ didn't believe the intruder theory and knew that this was all a staged kidnapping to cover a homicide committed by one of the members of the family, as did everyone who was at the house that morning and every LE investigator except the one hired by the oh so political DA.

TeaTime,

But, what was clear is that the GJ didn't believe the intruder theory and knew that this was all a staged kidnapping to cover a homicide committed by one of the members of the family

Yikes, you nailed it there, not only the GJ but also Hunter failing to file the papers, all calculated to mislead big time.

If its a parent my money is on JR. I cannot imagine PR staging herself into a homicide down in the basement, when JonBenet's bedroom is available.

Otherwise the case is BDI which must have a hidden element something we do not know about but Kolar, et al do? The staging is so minimal it allows for BR to perform some post-mortem staging, add in those size-12's and BR's long-johns, then a case can be developed.

If the GJ were confident enough about the child abuse and accessory Counts but not the homicide count, how come they cited the former but not the latter since the same two people are involved including the same homicide charge?

The GJ must have known what Kolar knows regarding BR all leading to the Child endangerment counts, without this proviso BDI just appears implausible as BR was so young, yet the GJ never ruled it out !

.

 

[OnAccountOfRabies]

Wait, we have to remember the transcripts from the original 911 call, and what the 911 operator overheard, (bless her as it's been so stressful for her) this is what I believe is the smoking gun and the only evidence we need, PR"What did you do?" BR"What did you find?" JR "We're not speaking to you!" I have whole heartedly always thought it was Patsy, but it makes sense a child could accidentally kill his or her sibling and the parents cover it up, and someone else mentioned JR pubic hair on JB, that was not ever found and her bladder control problem/urinary track infection was from wiping the wrong way and fecal matter entering her vagina and not be properly bathed after wetting herself. This type of infection is very common in young girls, I had a similar one when I was a young girl her age. Patsy should have confessed on her death bed, what an injustice to her child and her family in covering this up. Insane.