Did JR tell us "The Plan"?

[Scandigirl]

This document from Komrik with the premeditation theory and the before Xmas morning photo of the RN placement has generated some discussion. My question is, doesn't it seem odd after all the books and all the other "sources" of information that this is the first time it seems to have come up (at least as far as I know)? Has anyone here heard this before?

Assuming this information on the photo is true, Komrik must have access to information not in the public record and this information would have to come from someone deep inside the investigation. Secondarily, I would think a photo ordered in advance of Xmas morning with this implied content would have been a serious piece of evidence that would have had the attention of LE and the DA's office.

Given the depth of detail in Komrik's document, it seems less likely to me that he would just make this up. If his document and this information was new (his document was from 2010 as I recall), a leap could be made that this was a new evidence leak as part of ongoing investigation activity. All of the above just doesn't seem to make sense to me, but much of this investigation is also the same. My key point is that much of this boards (and others) is about interpretation of information in various ways, but new and "smoking gun" information doesn't seem to show up much based on my experience reading content.

Thoughts?

Hi ZBob,

I'm not sure what to make of Komrik's document either, apart from it being seemingly "new" information, which is why I finally plucked up the courage to share it on Websleuths, with people more knowledgeable about the case than I am, to see what you all think?

I also think it seems unlikely that the information is made up, just because of the level of detail and serious/academic/legal jargon used in its writing style. Komrik himself says that he was living in Boulder at the time of JonBenet's murder, but that's all I know about him! Makes me wonder too, if he either has inside knowledge of the investigation somehow, or knows someone who does.

I know that most people seem to think that JB's murder was an accident, followed by a cover up. I've no idea what is right or wrong in that regard, but there are certain aspects that do make me wonder if it, just maybe, could have been premeditated, which would put things in a very different light? Not just the alleged existence of the camera photos, but also the info about the cord and duct tape possibly being bought beforehand, and then John allegedly calling the store later on, to see if the purchases had been itemised?

Just really wanted to see with interest where the discussions on all these things might lead- don't want to appear as if I'm gate crashing with any particular angle necessarily, though, as I really don't know!

 

[Scandigirl]

Thank you; youve said it much better than I.

When mentioning the kidnapper breaking back IN to leave the dead body, my intent was sarcastic; the rolleyes should have been used.

However i still think John may have thought (in his arrogance) that BPD would let them leave. Maybe not to go on vacation, but yes to go to his "important business meeting". After getting business of the year awards & publicity/honor in print, why wouldnt he believe himself to be just that important? I still think it's plausible.

At the very least imo he believed that they could leave the house & stay with friends. Maybe that figured into the insane decision to invite their friends over that morning, & why BR got sent away so easily.

For one reason or another they wanted out of that house asap. They did NOT want to be there when JB's body was discovered. Someone put her as far away as possible, hidden in the farthest point. Even if the expectation was just that she'd be found later that day. I dont know the why of it but imo that was the plan until JR changed his mind and decided it best to find her himself.

I believe that patsy threw the REAL plan off with the 911 call and afterwards was scrambling around for Plan B despite his "cordial" greetings at the door. He was already anxious at that point i think, but any successful businessman has that whole cordiality or geniality thing down pat. His anxiety grew as the morning progressed..

Maybe he wanted out of the house because he felt he'd have more control of the situation from a distance? Maybe he was afraid that his acting skills upon JB being found werent up to par & would look condemningly fake- as of course they did.

I dont think he expected to be able to stay once JonBenet was found & the house became a crime scene. I do believe he felt that (without his own assistance) he certainly had a stretch of time to "work" with before she was discovered.

Remember that he'd referred to himself as a fixer, a person who fixed problem situations. Well he had a helll of a situation to fix that morning.

If we call patsy's 911 call a wrench in john's Plan A then he & patsy leaving the house before the body is discovered there becomes Plan B, arrived at in a hurry under much pressure.. Arrived at and discarded, obviously.

Isnt this plausible? I ask as someone new to this whole way of thinking, and still working out my own beliefs on this case.

Thanks in advance.

Hi renah,

Just wanted to thank you for your interesting post! Just a thought- do you think that the discussion is gradually leaning towards a scenario of either John acting on his own entirely, or a situation where John and Patsy ended up disagreeing about The Plan, instead of acting together as one unit? Just interesting to think about...

If Patsy calling 911 sabotaged John's original Plan, and she did that deliberately, did she also invite their friends over against John's wishes? And if so, could it have been partly for her own protection, in case of what he might do? Was it John who left all those "funny little clues" for the police to find, or was it Patsy?

Forgive me if this isn't the direction you were meaning! Just some thoughts after your post, that's all...

 

[DeeDee249]

Hi DeeDee249!

Exactly, with regards to everything you just said! Just another thought that's occurred to me... I may be completely wrong, but could it possibly be that the "incriminating" photos that we and the police are talking about here, which appear to show evidence of premeditation, are included in the apparently large amounts of evidence that has been withheld from the public?

It's only my own opinion, but I find it so frustrating that in every interview transcript I've ever read, between the police and the Ramsey's, the police seem to do such a poor job... Poor choice of wording for questions, not following through to force them to answer or elaborate their answers. I'm no genius by any means, but even I could have done a better job in trying harder not to let them off the hook, time and again! Either the police simply weren't very good, or they must have been completely intimidated by the Ramsey's and their lawyers. Or maybe they knew that, like us, they had all the suspicions, but no way of finding absolute proof?

Surely, like you said, though, any photos would show a time and date, which must be proof, unless I'm misunderstanding something and getting confused?

Every time I read the interviews I get so aggravated. Police drop the ball so many times. And then the Rs attorneys do not allow their clients to even answer some questions. I think we can tell a lot about whether the Rs lawyers knew they were involved by the questions they were not allowed to answer. They knew.
Many cameras show a time/date stamp, but not all. And in the ones that do, it can be turned off. There had to be a way for police to tell which photos were taken before Police arrived.

 

[otg]

On the issue of the "time/date stamp on photos" that were recovered from the Ramsey camera, I don't think that would be right. I know everyone thinks with the mindset of today's technology, but the pictures they would be talking about were from a roll of negative images taken. Before digital cameras, there was no date and time to set on cameras, and therefore, no way of knowing exactly when a picture was snapped. The only thing they would have to go by is the order of pictures on the roll.

 

[Scandigirl]

Every time I read the interviews I get so aggravated. Police drop the ball so many times. And then the Rs attorneys do not allow their clients to even answer some questions. I think we can tell a lot about whether the Rs lawyers knew they were involved by the questions they were not allowed to answer. They knew.
Many cameras show a time/date stamp, but not all. And in the ones that do, it can be turned off. There had to be a way for police to tell which photos were taken before Police arrived.

Thanks for your reply! It's unbelievable that such a potentially huge issue, just appears to have been dropped by the police, for whatever reason. It could indicate the difference between poor JB's murder being intentionally pre planned by her own family member(s), or being an unintentional accident, which is pretty major!

Just a further thought- just say for instance that it was premeditated- what can the Ramsey's comments mean when they said that the murderer "didn't mean it" or "we didn't mean for this to happen"?!

Pure speculation, of course... Sorry for adding my jumbled thoughts.

 

[renah]

Hi renah,

Just wanted to thank you for your interesting post! Just a thought- do you think that the discussion is gradually leaning towards a scenario of either John acting on his own entirely, or a situation where John and Patsy ended up disagreeing about The Plan, instead of acting together as one unit? Just interesting to think about...

If Patsy calling 911 sabotaged John's original Plan, and she did that deliberately, did she also invite their friends over against John's wishes? And if so, could it have been partly for her own protection, in case of what he might do? Was it John who left all those "funny little clues" for the police to find, or was it Patsy?

Forgive me if this isn't the direction you were meaning! Just some thoughts after your post, that's all...

Thanks, Scandi and all. Feels good to not come off as a total idiot for once

I'd like to discuss more right now but cant due to time. Its funny that you mention being off-topic, or going another direction, because thats what i thought i had done already when i checked back in after writing & posting my plausibility comments It took me so long to do that when i did get back, it seems to me i had definitely veered!

I will say now that Im not convinced patsy was in on it at all, especially after reading Chrishope's thoughts again.

Also i too felt that there were at least(?) two separate photos being discussed in the JR/PR interviews above, and YES: Reading them is frustrating & confusing as helll. MY impression is that in the PR interview the main point LE was trying to find out about was the cleaning products, and the photo showed them in a not-ordinary place. I thought probably in the basement-- and possibly with one of the legal pads nearby. Not sure if its ever been sourced, but Ive read that cleaning products may have been used on the body by the killer...

And also: My own impression to Patsy's "Its nothing"? More like "why would someone bother taking a picture of nothing-- who wants a photo of nothing?!"

 

[Chrishope]

Yes, What's important to remember is the R's were not like you, me and most folks. Their reality was nothing like ours. They were special, had a sense of entitlement, were superior. They expected and received special treatment because of their status in the business world and in the community. Again, the R's reality was nothing like ours. Keeping this fact in mind, I can see JR expecting LE to allow the family to fly away from Boulder on Dec. 26 and I can imagine PR expecting LE to believe the RN. Just look at the hold the family had on AH.

There are a couple problems with this approach to the case;

1. There is no evidence that either JR or PR operated in an alternate reality. Neither was insane, as far as we know. In fact their very successful business, in which they both played an important role, indicates that they were very much aware of how other people think and what they are likely to "buy" in both the literal and figurative senses.

2. It makes rational assessment of the Rs behavior nearly impossible. They can be said to do anything for any reason that can be dreamed up because of their "alternate reality".

It's better to assume they operated in the same reality as the rest of us. If something is implausible to the police/prosecutor it's probably implausible to the Rs as well, and they probably didn't try to sell something that was implausible. They probably didn't plan on doing something that strikes us as improbable/implausible because they operated in the same reality as the rest of us.

 

[Nom de plume]

I've noticed a lot of references to FFJ in KK's doc. Does anyone know if he's a member there, or who he may be?

Personally, I disagree with a lot of what he says simply because it assumes facts not in evidence. (Attack took place in boiler room, bat as weapon, etc.) He could be right on target, but he let's JR off the hook a little too easily for my taste. There were more than enough disorders and dysfunction to go around in that house.

Every time I read the interviews I get so aggravated. Police drop the ball so many times. And then the Rs attorneys do
not allow their clients to even answer some questions. I think we can tell a lot about whether the Rs lawyers knew they were involved by the questions they were not allowed to answer. They knew.
Many cameras show a time/date stamp, but not all. And in the ones that do, it can be turned off. There had to be a way for police to tell which photos were taken before Police arrived.

According to KK, and apparently the PR interview as well, the photo in question was on the roll before the Christmas morning photos. LE seems to make that clear in PR's interview, so apparently they do know.

Hi renah,

Just wanted to thank you for your interesting post! Just a thought- do you think that the discussion is gradually leaning towards a scenario of either John acting on his own entirely, or a situation where John and Patsy ended up disagreeing about The Plan, instead of acting together as one unit? Just interesting to think about...

If Patsy calling 911 sabotaged John's original Plan, and she did that deliberately, did she also invite their friends over against John's wishes? And if so, could it have been partly for her own protection, in case of what he might do? Was it John who left all those "funny little clues" for the police to find, or was it Patsy?

Forgive me if this isn't the direction you were meaning! Just some thoughts after your post, that's all...

As to the "clever little clues" JR talks about, I believe they were left by FW because he "knew". I can't see either R leaving them. Drawing attention to the family in general was contradictory to faking a RN. The whole idea of a RN was to point away from them. No, I'd bet someone else in the house that morning left those "clues", and I can't think of any better possibility than FW.

 

[Chrishope]

Thanks, Scandi and all. Feels good to not come off as a total idiot for once

I'd like to discuss more right now but cant due to time. Its funny that you mention being off-topic, or going another direction, because thats what i thought i had done already when i checked back in after writing & posting my plausibility comments It took me so long to do that when i did get back, it seems to me i had definitely veered!

I will say now that Im not convinced patsy was in on it at all, especially after reading Chrishope's thoughts again.

Also i too felt that there were at least(?) two separate photos being discussed in the JR/PR interviews above, and YES: Reading them is frustrating & confusing as helll. MY impression is that in the PR interview the main point LE was trying to find out about was the cleaning products, and the photo showed them in a not-ordinary place. I thought probably in the basement-- and possibly with one of the legal pads nearby. Not sure if its ever been sourced, but Ive read that cleaning products may have been used on the body by the killer...

And also: My own impression to Patsy's "Its nothing"? More like "why would someone bother taking a picture of nothing-- who wants a photo of nothing?!"

I'm sorry if I've led you astray. It's my belief that PR didn't know anything about the murder and was not part of the coverup. e.g. Doc's theory.

 

[otg]

Looking at the measurements on the photos, are they right? Burke was 5 foot something?

Just an observation,

Salem

Hi, Salem. That's only an estimate based on JonBenet's height taken from the AR. In all the pictures I've seen of the two of them standing side-by-side close to the time of her death, it's easy to say he stood "head and shoulders" above her. I would guess BR to be about 5'-3" (but that's just a guess) at the time she died.

 

[Scandigirl]

I'm sorry if I've led you astray. It's my belief that PR didn't know anything about the murder and was not part of the coverup. e.g. Doc's theory.

I'm not sure what to really make of it all.

I can imagine John acting entirely alone, and being responsible for molesting JonBenet, committing her murder, making a plan, writing the ransom note and either deceiving, manipulating or threatening Patsy. Often it can be the people who appear to be the calm, quiet, rational and unemotional ones, who can in fact be the most cruel and ruthless in the end.

I could even stretch to imagining Burke molesting and killing his sister, but I personally couldn't see him writing that particular ransom note, or keeping completely quiet about it for so many years.

I can imagine Patsy abusing JB (although, for me, not sexually), and committing the murder. But, I too can't see why she would hand write a self-incriminating ransom note, using her own pad and paper, and then call the police on herself!

So, back to John working alone, and DocG's theory. My problem is that, even if Patsy was not directly involved in the murder or staging, she still gives me the strong impression that she knows something that she's hiding or protecting, something that she knows went on that night, or within her family. She doesn't seem to want to fully co operate or genuinely help the police to find the killer of her daughter.

I don't know if any of this makes sense to anyone? It's purely my own opinion.

 

[renah]

I'm sorry if I've led you astray. It's my belief that PR didn't know anything about the murder and was not part of the coverup. e.g. Doc's theory.

Yes, exactly!

 

[Salem]

I’m very confused. I don’t mind playing by your rules, but that’s hard to do when I don’t understand them. All the KK discussion on this thread is off-topic (I’m okay with that). However, this thread was started, as the OP states, to address questions I – an IDI - was raising on another thread. In the OP, Nom de plume wrote:


And, the first few posts followed that discussion. A discussion essentially based on my thoughts, my observations, my questions, my words. IDI thoughts, IDI observations, IDI questions, IDI words. But, my viewpoint is not allowed? The IDI viewpoint is not allowed?

Your house. Your rules. I’ll do my best to follow them, but, I’m sorry, and I hope this doesn’t get me banned or result in this post being deleted, but I really don’t understand this. I have to adopt an RDI viewpoint to be permitted to discuss a topic based on an IDI – MY – viewpoint?

"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking." George S. Patton, Jr.
...

AK

Anti-K - you have a very valid point here. So, here is what we are going to do.

I am going to close this thread and open a new thread for the RDI's regarding JR and the plan.

If the IDI's want such a thread for their own discussion, let me know.

Salem